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I have a problem with the serpent being a fallen angel whom God allowed to tempt mankind. I have wrapped my brain around this subject for several years now. The more I look into the bible the more I believe that the serpent must have been……….brace yourselves…………….ADAM!
If it was not Adam then the serpent was the mind of Eve. Either way I believe that the serpent DEFINIETLY represents the MIND of the FLESH.
No where in the bible does it say that the serpent was a fallen angel, because no where in the bible can you find the existence of ‘fallen angels’. Honestly I think even the idea of a fallen angel desecrates the character of God. Should not God hold the same standards to all of His created free will creatures? Should not God desire all of His free will creatures to be without sin? Is God really that stupid, that He would give immortality to sinful creatures? One of the KEY messages in the bible is that SIN=DEATH. If our God is a God of order and justice and does not change, then the angels must be without sin since we are told that they cannot die.
Lu 20:36 – for neither are they able to die any more — for they are like messengers — and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.
Revelation 12 is not about angels who fell from Heaven. WAR in HEAVEN? People PLEASE think about this.
Matthew 6:9 “Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Ac 7:49 – The heaven is My throne, and the earth My footstool; what house will ye build to Me? saith the Lord, or what is the place of My rest?
2Co 5:2 – for also in this we groan, with our dwelling that is from heaven earnestly desiring to clothe ourselves,
Ps 118:20 – This isthe gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.
Ps 140:13 Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!
If war and sin can exist in Heaven, then what sort of peace and rest are we looking for from Heaven? Heaven is portrayed as God’s throne, where His authority dwells in perfection, therefore the possibility of a free will being having the ability to sin and cause a war in Heaven is nothing short of ludicrous in my opinion. God’s goal for us and our goal for ourselves is that we are made perfect, so we can join God under His throne and be under His peace. Angels in Heaven, being of free will mind, must have been made perfect at some point in history’s past, or else they wouldn’t have eternal life, as well as be living in the presence of God. No where in the bible does it say that Angels were made immortal, it simply says that we shall be like the angels, never to die anymore.
As well, if having eternal life is so great, and being in the presence of God is so wonderful, then why was it not good enough for ‘Lucifer’. Does not, if one really thinks things through, the doctrine of Lucifer’s fall cast great doubt onto the greatness of God’s promises for mankind? Honestly, what would an angel have to be jealous over Adam for? Would not it be more likely that Adam would be jealous of the angels?
All throughout the bible the message is clear as to WHERE the influence of sin comes from, it is EARTHLY, from within the human mind and heart.
Ge 6:5 – And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;
Mark 7:21 for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders, 22 thefts, covetous desires, wickedness, deceit, arrogance, an evil eye, evil speaking, pride, foolishness; 23 all these evils do come forth from within, and they defile the man.'
James 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Col 2:8 -See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Jas 4:4 – Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
Php 3:19 – Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
Col 3:2 – Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Col 3:5 -Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
Jas 3:15 -Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.
Where in the bible does it say that ‘Satan’ and the Devil represent a fallen angel? NOWHERE!
I believe that the whole doctrine of fallen angels comes from pagan influence, and those ‘early fathers’ did as best they could to incorporate it into the bible. One of the greatest deceptions was in the translating of the Hebrew word for the English word Satan. Instead of using the actual English word, adversary, for all texts, they TURNED the word into a proper name and gave that name the identity of a fallen angel. The truth is, NO WHERE in the bible do we see satan as referring to a fallen angel. We do see however, ’adversary’ as being God to the people, God’s messengers to the people, people to each other, and people to God.
Now I know some of you are running several scriptures in your mind that prove that a fallen angel is one of our adversaries, maybe the adversary in the book of Job is one that comes to mind? There is a more accurate and plausible interpretation of who the adversary is in the book of Job.
Through your indoctrination it would seem clear enough that in the beginning of Job, ‘Satan’ a fallen angel, and God are in Heaven carrying on a direct conversation. Taking a closer look however, this just may not be the real truth. Lets establish first that the ‘sons of God’ in Job1:6 are men, in this case, and not angels, just like the ‘sons of God’ are men in these scriptures, Hosea 1:10, 4:6, Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Galatians 3:26, 4:6, and I John 3:2. Men and women who are considered the ‘sons of God, are those who are devote followers of God and the law. Next let’s establish what it means to ‘present yourself before the Lord’, as it is used in Job 1:6. In places in the Old Testament and the New, to ‘present yourself to the Lord’ meant to go worship God in the appointed places with the appointed priests. (Deuteronomy 31, Joshua 24, I Samuel 10, and Luke 2) In the Old Testament, when David wanted to know God’s will for him, he consulted a priest and a priest spoke to him on behalf of God. In Job 1:6 so far we could very well have men on earth, and not angels in Heaven, who are going to present themselves to a priest, who is God’s anointed representative. Next let’s establish who Satan is. The word Satan as it appears in the book of Job is deceiving. The capital S in Satan in the original Hebrew text is not capital, moreover it is crucial to remember the word satan itself does not mean fallen angel but adversary. In the book of Numbers Balaam is called an adversary by God, because he disobeyed Him. In Matthew 16 Christ called Peter an adversary because he was not mindful of God. The adversary in Job could very well be a man, an outsider who has it in for Job and wants to stir up trouble with the local priest. Moroever, translation should read the adversary walked to and fro in the land and not on the earth.
To an uneducated or misled reader Job 1:6 could indeed seem like angels in heaven going to talk to God and 'Satan' coming with them, however what would read clear to an Israelite back in the time of Job, are some dudes going to “church” and a jerk who despises and is jealous of their friend Job is tagging along with them to cause trouble. The conversation between the Lord and ‘Satan’ is a conversation between a priest and a man. A final note is that the adversary is not the one who inflicts Job, but it is God Himself who does the inflicting. Within the book of Job there is no proof, that the adversary is a fallen angel.
You are on to something here.
However, I don't believe your conclusions are accurate.
The angels that fell have not much to do with satan.
Satan is not a “fallen angel”. He was created as an adversary by God.
The fallen angels are the other sons of God who governed the other nations, some of them are the angels that left their first estate before the flood and created hybrid man. The demons are the spirits of these hybrids who were killed.
I believe that the “ENTIRE MESSAGE OF CHRISTIANITY” is that we have been rescued from these principalities and powers.
To me, in all humbleness and sincerity, understanding the role of angels in scripture is the very key to actually grasping the entire redemption message. The entire reason and need for Jesus the messiah.
We were kidnapped, led astray. Jesus set us free and took the fallen angels captive.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,07:43) You are on to something here. However, I don't believe your conclusions are accurate.
The angels that fell have not much to do with satan.
Satan is not a “fallen angel”. He was created as an adversary by God.
The fallen angels are the other sons of God who governed the other nations, some of them are the angels that left their first estate before the flood and created hybrid man. The demons are the spirits of these hybrids who were killed.
I believe that the “ENTIRE MESSAGE OF CHRISTIANITY” is that we have been rescued from these principalities and powers.
To me, in all humbleness and sincerity, understanding the role of angels in scripture is the very key to actually grasping the entire redemption message. The entire reason and need for Jesus the messiah.
We were kidnapped, led astray. Jesus set us free and took the fallen angels captive.
Where do you get the idea that satan is one individual? Satan means adversary, anyone with free will can be considered a satan. In the bible God is a satan to people, Gods messengers are satans to people, people are satans to God and to each other.I dont see anywhere in the bible where it says we must be rescued from fallen angels that have led us astray.
The bible says continually that our own mind and heart is what is at enmity with God.
Ro 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Ephesians 2:14 for he is our peace, who did make both one, and the middle wall of the enclosure did break down, 15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity in it,
The enemy, the adversary is in OUR FLESH, it is inside us, it was inside Jesus, but he overcame it.
Adam brought death through fleshly weakness. Jesus brought life through overcoming that same weakness.
Jesus says himself that evils come from within, NOT from fallen angels.
Morning Star, if you are trying to say that fallen angels had sex with humans and created hybrid man, you are denying the laws of nature with which God created and gave to us in word- every creature re-produces after its OWN KIND.
I believe demons are mental disorders!
Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,11:37) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,07:43) You are on to something here. However, I don't believe your conclusions are accurate.
The angels that fell have not much to do with satan.
Satan is not a “fallen angel”. He was created as an adversary by God.
The fallen angels are the other sons of God who governed the other nations, some of them are the angels that left their first estate before the flood and created hybrid man. The demons are the spirits of these hybrids who were killed.
I believe that the “ENTIRE MESSAGE OF CHRISTIANITY” is that we have been rescued from these principalities and powers.
To me, in all humbleness and sincerity, understanding the role of angels in scripture is the very key to actually grasping the entire redemption message. The entire reason and need for Jesus the messiah.
We were kidnapped, led astray. Jesus set us free and took the fallen angels captive.
Where do you get the idea that satan is one individual? Satan means adversary, anyone with free will can be considered a satan. In the bible God is a satan to people, Gods messengers are satans to people, people are satans to God and to each other.I dont see anywhere in the bible where it says we must be rescued from fallen angels that have led us astray.
The bible says continually that our own mind and heart is what is at enmity with God.
Ro 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Ephesians 2:14 for he is our peace, who did make both one, and the middle wall of the enclosure did break down, 15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity in it,
The enemy, the adversary is in OUR FLESH, it is inside us, it was inside Jesus, but he overcame it.
Adam brought death through fleshly weakness. Jesus brought life through overcoming that same weakness.
Jesus says himself that evils come from within, NOT from fallen angels.
Morning Star, if you are trying to say that fallen angels had sex with humans and created hybrid man, you are denying the laws of nature with which God created and gave to us in word- every creature re-produces after its OWN KIND.
I believe demons are mental disorders!
you really have to do alot of stretching, ignoring and “what that really means is”. inorder to truly come to the belief that you have.I can try and demonstrate through scripture what I mean when I get a chance.
But before I do, be honest and tell me if you will seriously say everytime an angelic or demonic force is present or mentioned that it is not really saying that.
It would be a waste of my time. I suppose I could say that nobody has ever believed this from our earliest written sources until now. but maybe that wouldnt matter to you.
can you demonstrate through scripture your belief?
makes me think of the old adage:
The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing men he didn't exist.
Jesus cast out a legion of mental illnesses into a herd of swine?
The lake of fire has been prepared for our mental illnesses?
A bunch of mental illnesses left their first estate and are being held in gloomy chains of darkness?
A mental illness gave the law to moses?
We are to become like the angels in heaven at the ressurection… oops I mean like the mental illnesses in heaven?
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,12:10) makes me think of the old adage: The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing men he didn't exist.
The greatest trick the devil (weak mind of man) ever played was convincing himself that he was to good to be at falt for his own sins.No wonder the PRIDE of man is a great theme in the bible!
Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,13:20) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,12:10) makes me think of the old adage: The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing men he didn't exist.
The greatest trick the devil (weak mind of man) ever played was convincing himself that he was to good to be at falt for his own sins.No wonder the PRIDE of man is a great theme in the bible!
I agree with you here. but pride and weak minds have nothing to do with disproving satan or fallen angels.i see both existing. It's not an either or situation.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,13:33) Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,13:20) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,12:10) makes me think of the old adage: The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing men he didn't exist.
The greatest trick the devil (weak mind of man) ever played was convincing himself that he was to good to be at falt for his own sins.No wonder the PRIDE of man is a great theme in the bible!
I agree with you here. but pride and weak minds have nothing to do with disproving satan or fallen angels.i see both existing. It's not an either or situation.
So explain to me just exactly what sort of role does satan and the fallen angels play in our lives. If sin comes from within as Jesus says and you agree that we are responsible for our own sins, how exactly do these beings influence us?Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,13:50) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,13:33) Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,13:20) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,12:10) makes me think of the old adage: The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing men he didn't exist.
The greatest trick the devil (weak mind of man) ever played was convincing himself that he was to good to be at falt for his own sins.No wonder the PRIDE of man is a great theme in the bible!
I agree with you here. but pride and weak minds have nothing to do with disproving satan or fallen angels.i see both existing. It's not an either or situation.
So explain to me just exactly what sort of role does satan and the fallen angels play in our lives. If sin comes from within as Jesus says and you agree that we are responsible for our own sins, how exactly do these beings influence us?
I dont have alot of time I am at work.In a nut shell.
Satan accuses us before the throne and The Father in return allows him to test us. Read Job.
The Fallen Angels where actually the gods of the ancient world who have lead man astray by teaching them:
1) false religion
2) the art of war
3) witchcraft
4) they infected our race in the past with their offspring.
(btw we are made in the image of elohim. so we ARE of their kind)
5) basically they taught man how to be even more sinful and disobediant.2Co 11:3 -But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
1Timothy 2: 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men,…
Eve was deceived and because of that deception she transgressed God’s law, therefore if it was because of one man that sin entered the world, wouldn’t that make Adam the deceiver? Why, if Adam was innocent of deceiving, then he is not also considered as being deceived by the serpent?
Joh 8:44 – “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Adam bringing death to all men, is he not a murderer from the beginning?
Heb 2:14 -Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
If Adam was the source of where death came, then can we not confirm that something within Adam is considered the devil?
Why if Jesus was to conquer a powerful supernatural sinful angel, he wasn’t made an even greater angel or supernatural being? Does that not strike anyone as odd, especially the fact that it says he conquered through dieing. Jesus was made flesh and blood to overcome the devil, that is because the devil is weak human nature that follows its own will and not the will of God. Jesus destroyed the devil, by overcoming the weak mind of man and its desire to serve the flesh.
Ro 8:6 – for the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit — life and peace;
Death holds great power, it has our weak human minds in chains to serve our flesh.
Death came to us as punishment from God through Adam. Where do fallen angels fit into all of this? I suggest that they don’t.
The mind of man brought death due to its ignorance and inexperience, and now that reality of death has great power over us.
2Ti 2:26 -and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
The only will we serve is the will to survive. I am clueless as to what sort of will that a fallen angel would have us following.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,14:14) Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,13:50) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,13:33) Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,13:20) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,12:10) makes me think of the old adage: The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing men he didn't exist.
The greatest trick the devil (weak mind of man) ever played was convincing himself that he was to good to be at falt for his own sins.No wonder the PRIDE of man is a great theme in the bible!
I agree with you here. but pride and weak minds have nothing to do with disproving satan or fallen angels.i see both existing. It's not an either or situation.
So explain to me just exactly what sort of role does satan and the fallen angels play in our lives. If sin comes from within as Jesus says and you agree that we are responsible for our own sins, how exactly do these beings influence us?
I dont have alot of time I am at work.In a nut shell.
Satan accuses us before the throne and The Father in return allows him to test us. Read Job.
The Fallen Angels where actually the gods of the ancient world who have lead man astray by teaching them:
1) false religion
2) the art of war
3) witchcraft
4) they infected our race in the past with their offspring.
(btw we are made in the image of elohim. so we ARE of their kind)
5) basically they taught man how to be even more sinful and disobediant.
#1 False religion-you can't be serious as to think such a thing cannot come from the human mind itself, after all Eve thought the act of eating something could give her knowledge.The sun gives life, therefore let us worship the sun. I'm sorry but human ignorance and human imagination is NOT a work of fallen angels.
#2 The art of war-Why do men fight, what do they fight over? Men fight over things like land and food because they feel it is necessary to survive. War comes about because of our situation, and our situation is we fear death, and because of death some people serve their flesh in an unrighteous way.
#3 Witchcraft– Humans use trickery for all sorts of reasons, today mostly for money. Once again we have ignorance and imagination of the human mind at work
#4 they infected our race in the past with their offspring.– first of all this is fantasy and Not biblical. Second, likeness is NOT the same as being of the same kind. For instance it can be said, that we were created in the likeness of the monkey, having eyes and ears as they do.
Free will individuals were created in the image or likeness of God. The first glimpse given to us in the bible of God’s character is designer/creator. We can see this character in ourselves as well. With this character we naturally seek knowledge and the desire for achievement and a sense of accomplishment. The bible tells us that God is seeking after glory and honor, ah so here we see yet another image of God that we too possess. The characteristic God wants out of us the most is His righteousness.
Some people seek glory and honor more than others, and it is this characteristic that often gets man into big trouble.#5 basically they taught man how to be even more sinful and disobediant-and who do you suggest taught the fallen angels how to be so sinful and disobedient? Was the glory of God's Heavenly throne and their immortality to stressful for them?
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,15:27) If Christ was our ransom. Who was the ransom paid to?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this question, especialy since the answer I believe is quite obvious.The payment goes to God, so that through Christ's death He can forgive us.
Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,16:11) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,15:27) If Christ was our ransom. Who was the ransom paid to?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this question, especialy since the answer I believe is quite obvious.The payment goes to God, so that through Christ's death He can forgive us.
oh so you believe the satisfaction theory of atonement created by anselm 1000 years after christ?all christians prior to this time period believed the ransom was paid to satan and prinicipalities and powers who kidnapped us.
So you believe God the Father was so angry at his creation that he wanted to kill them? So he sent his son to earth and killed him instead so he could spare us? he needed to kill somebody to satisfy his bloodlust and sense of justice?
I believe we were kidnapped by dark forces and christ gave himself up as a ransom so that we could be set free. he paid the debt to the enemy in our place.
Just as Aslan died in the place of Edmund because the white witch said the laws of the land declared that he belonged to her. Aslan died in edmunds place as a ransom paid.
But praise God our Lion from the tribe of Judah raised from the dead making a spectle of all principalities and powers. As did Aslan to the white witch.
Ask yourself who does a ransom get paid to?
The Father of the Child. (we are God's children)
Or the Kidnapper who stole the child?
of Course the Father pays a ransom to the bad guys and he did pay the ransom.
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son.
Jodi,
Been hanging out with any Christadelphians lately? Certainly not an insult, I am close to their theology myself.
Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 15 2007,17:02) Jodi, Been hanging out with any Christadelphians lately? Certainly not an insult, I am close to their theology myself.
I assumed she was Christadelphian, but I am not sure.Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 15 2007,17:02) Jodi, Been hanging out with any Christadelphians lately? Certainly not an insult, I am close to their theology myself.
My current beliefs also line-up pretty nicely with the 'delph's.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,16:42) Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,16:11) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,15:27) If Christ was our ransom. Who was the ransom paid to?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this question, especialy since the answer I believe is quite obvious.The payment goes to God, so that through Christ's death He can forgive us.
oh so you believe the satisfaction theory of atonement created by anselm 1000 years after christ?all christians prior to this time period believed the ransom was paid to satan and prinicipalities and powers who kidnapped us.
So you believe God the Father was so angry at his creation that he wanted to kill them? So he sent his son to earth and killed him instead so he could spare us? he needed to kill somebody to satisfy his bloodlust and sense of justice?
I believe we were kidnapped by dark forces and christ gave himself up as a ransom so that we could be set free. he paid the debt to the enemy in our place.
Just as Aslan died in the place of Edmund because the white witch said the laws of the land declared that he belonged to her. Aslan died in edmunds place as a ransom paid.
But praise God our Lion from the tribe of Judah raised from the dead making a spectle of all principalities and powers. As did Aslan to the white witch.
Ask yourself who does a ransom get paid to?
The Father of the Child. (we are God's children)
Or the Kidnapper who stole the child?
of Course the Father pays a ransom to the bad guys and he did pay the ransom.
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son.
To prove your position you should try using the bible. Ransoms get paid for all sorts of reasons, majority of them have NOTHING to do with kidnapping. As a matter of fact 'ransom' appears several times in the bible and NOT once does it referr to a kidnapping.We are being set free from the SINS we PERSONALLY committed. The bible is very clear on this. We are not being set free from dark force kidnappers. I would like to no where in scripture you came up with this.
You said,”I believe we were kidnapped by dark forces and christ gave himself up as a ransom so that we could be set free. he paid the debt to the enemy in our place.”
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Bad guys kidnap for gain, usually it is for money. What purpose did these dark forces have for kidnapping us in the first place? What debt did we owe to them? And why would they accept Jesus’ death as a payment. What gain did they get out of Jesus’ death, especially since it was a short lived one?
And as well, God did not kill Jesus, He is not a murderer, He allowed him, just like all other men who were crucified, to die from his crucifixion.
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