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Quote (Gene @ Mar. 06 2009,09:31) Seeking………Not sure what you are saying or driving at, but the issue of a so-called free will has been descuessed Here extensicely before, you can find the thread a read my as well as others commit. Let me Just say this to you Free Will is a creation of religion , the is not scripture that says we have a (FREE) Will, we have Wills but they are hardly (FREE) Will they are influenced WILLS , big difference. There is no such thing as a (FREE WILL). GO the the free will thread and you will see our reasonings on this . But if your have any question ask and i will try to answer it. love and peace to you and yours…………………………gene
I'll try finding the “Free Will” thread. Thanks for being willing to field questions I may have afterwards.What I have in mind is to understand. Not driving at anything other than to grasp what is being said.
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 07 2009,05:53) Gene,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote The whole truth is you Hate the fact its GOD (ALONE),THAT CREATES Righteousness in us>BY GRACE and Has nothing to do with our so-called (FREE WILL) I observe you have not repplied to some of my questions. I do hope you will share your thoughts with me on these queries.
Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith–
This passage does seem to imply that the only motivator for
response to God's grace is faith that what He said is true. That “faith” response looks to be called “obedience.” Obediece is simply “active hearkening or submission” according to Strong's.Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
This passage does say that it is ALL GOD. He creates the will to do what He wants and the motivation to work, all”for His good pleasure.”
Are we though, bound to do His bidding and incapable to refuse? How would these passages unwrap if that be the case:
Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.Is that denial impossible today?
Blessings,
Seeking
Seeking…………Jesus said (NO) MAN
(CAN) come unto me unless the FATHER DRAW HIM. that should answer your question, true Faith is also a gift from GOD. Seeking ask your self why do men want to change that, into so-called (FREE WILL) Choices in the first place. Is it because they want to be a GOD unto themselves.love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 07 2009,00:47) Seeking…………Jesus said (NO) MAN
(CAN) come unto me unless the FATHER DRAW HIM. that should answer your question, true Faith is also a gift from GOD. Seeking ask your self why do men want to change that, into so-called (FREE WILL) Choices in the first place. Is it because they want to be a GOD unto themselves.love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene,I grasp that it is God that works in us to do according to His good pleasure. The Bible states He influences both to “will” and to “do.”
I read most of the “Free Will” thread. I wonder if “choice” would be more palatable. I had noticed on that thread you chastised WJ for snickering over a post that said something like, “you didn't choose to post this, it was God's plan.”
That is not exact but grasps the essence.If that is the essence, we make no decisions free of God's influence and we can only make a decision consistent with His predetermined will, then in all practicality, we have no decision to make. That being true, why would we be upset with folks that disagree with us, mock the ideas of others, etc. It is where God is directing them to the end that His puposes will be fulfilled.
Much was said, in the “Free Will” thread about Pharaoh being directed and having his heart hardened by God. What I didn't see was that the scriptures also say,
Exo 8:15 ESV But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo. 8:32 NIV But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
Exo 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
1Sa 6:6 Why should you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts?
Gene, It's like, “which came first, the chicken or the egg?”
The “Free Will” thread was lengthy with much discussion on both sides of the fence. The above passages left me seeing how there seems to be two sides to the fence.In the final analysis, I am either choosing to straddle the fence on the matter or, I have no choice, God wants me straddling the fence. Which is it?
I see yours and others point, if God is sovereign, we only afre participants in His great plan and which of us can say to the potter, “why did you make me this way?” I still struggle with Him being satisfied with what has been called “Robot followers.”
Thanks for your input. If you can clear up any of my struggles on the matter, I welcome your thoughts.
Blessings,
Seeking
Seeking………First of all as long as we are alive the Will issue we always exist, my point was never do we have a WILL, obliviously we all do, the point was is it a (FREE WILL) so lets decide what a FREE WILL would be, The word Free Will means a Will without (ANY INFLUENCED) what so ever or it really is not totally (FREE). An example would be if i offered you three choices say of a pie, apple, cherry, or peach, which one would you Choose? You would think abut the Choices and pick say the peach pie, now was that a (FREE WILL CHOICE)? Fact is no where in scripture is the word (FREE) Will mentioned. Jesus said he came to set the captives (FREE) from what?, there INFLUENCED WILLS, and in another scripture is says HE LED A HOST OF CAPTIVES , CAPTIVE. Men are in a state of captivity by there thought which effects their thinking and consequently their WILLS And Choices.
You mentioned about Pharaoh hardening his own heart but scripture plainly says GOD caused that to happen to Him in order to show GOD'S Great POWER in the World.
Seeking………If you can understand that all good and all evil has always existed and these are thoughts or knowledges or Spirit intellects, are what effect us all, for there is no new thing under the sun, were told, while it may be new to us it certainly is not new in the creation. Everything we do comes down to this good and evil knowledge or Spirits. The only time you were neutral was when you were born and just a baby and from the time on you were being filled with Knowledge (both good and evil), as John said “for all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life are (FROM) the world”. We are receptors and by exposure to these two Knowledges of good and evil were are effected and influenced and brought into captivity by them. They drive our wills and behaviors and we must be set free from them, and this can only be done buy GOD HIMSELF. The CARNAL MIND, does not want to except that, He wants to believe It's HIS so-called (FREE CHOICES) that saves Him, the Thought of God (ALONE) saving Him He can't stand because of HIS Great PRIDE, And he will NOT SUBMIT To the WILL of GOD. He will always want His WILL to be Part of His salvation which simply is not true. “for we are saved by (GRACE) and not by works lest any boast”. It is God who WORKS in US to (BOTH) WILL and DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE”> That sums up salvation in a Nut Shell. To ADD anything to that is Just PRIDE talking. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 07 2009,09:36) Quote Jesus said he came to set the captives (FREE) from what?, there INFLUENCED WILLS, and in another scripture is says HE LED A HOST OF CAPTIVES , CAPTIVE. Men are in a state of captivity by there thought which effects their thinking and consequently their WILLS And Choices. Help me follow along here. Does Jesus set us free from all influence that might affect our will or does He free us from only influences contrary to God's will for us? Does setting us free eliminate influenced choice also?
Quote You would think abut the Choices and pick say the peach pie, now was that a (FREE WILL CHOICE)? NO because you chose the one that you most desired You are saying I have choices and I think about them and then select, or choose, based on my desire. Am I free to make my influenced choice based on “my desire” or does God
compel me to choose based on His desire (will)?Am I just along for the ride without any certainty as to whether God has in mind for me to be a Pharaoh or a Paul, so to speak? Or, since God wants all men to be saved, will we all be saved? If that is the case, what is the purpose for the middle – according to your understanding?
Seeking
Seeking the purpose for us in the middle so to speak is to learn from experiencing GOOD and EVIL. WE all served sin in our lives at one time or another, it is and was the will of God that that happen or He would have prevented it. Notice what it says, “Look man Has become as we are, (TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL)” the word (Know) here means to experience it, with a imminent relationship with it. Just telling some one about whats right and what wrong Just doesn't do it, God know that all along, thats why Jesus was sacrificed from the foundations of the world. God know all along what WE would do and what He was going to do.
The knowledge of good and evil is vital and necessary for us in order to gain (wisdom) from first hand experience, that why we are in these temporal bodies for the very purpose to gain this incite of good and evil. Why do you think GOD said to ADAM “cursed is the ground (FOR YOUR SAKE)” God made it hard for us in order to experience the effects of Evil so we can grow to hate it. He corrupted His creation for our (SAKE). or for our GOOD.
As far as you saying i am (FREE) to make my Choice , wrong, you are not free to make any choice since you will always chose the one the influences you the most, Free has nothing to do with it. Influenced WILL does. there is not such thing as (FREE WILL) Choices. Salvation is not a happenstance game , it is a definite purposed event by GOD Himself For everyone He created at his timing. Sorry if that takes away all your feeling of Power over you salvation brother but thats the way i see it and i believe scripture backs this up also.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Gene,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote As far as you saying i am (FREE) to make my Choice , wrong, you are not free to make any choice since you will always chose the one the influences you the most I believe I said,
Quote Am I free to make my influenced choice based on “my desire” or does God compel me to choose based on His desire (will)? It seems you are saying that, regardless of influences or my desire, I can only choose what God desires.
Quote Seeking the purpose for us in the middle so to speak is to learn from experiencing GOOD and EVIL. WE all served sin in our lives at one time or another, it is and was the will of God that that happen or He would have prevented it. What do I learn from experiencing GOOD and EVIL? Apparently I do not learn to make right choices, good and evil both serving as influences. Do I choose as you say, “you will always chose the one the influences you the most” or
do I choose based on what God wants me to do at the moment (which is really not choice)?Quote Sorry if that takes away all your feeling of Power over you salvation brother but thats the way i see it and i believe scripture backs this up also. Gene, an unnecessary comment! I am totally aware and accept this truth, “Luk 18:26-27 Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But he said, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”
Simply because I choose to accept God's offer of salvation has nothing to do with MY POWER. Why would you say that?
It is about His love and grace, not my power.Seeking
Seeking ………. Your influenced Choices are not (FREE) at all, sorry i think you misunderstood me, or i did not make it clear enough, To simplify this, what i am saying is that you or me will always chose the greatest influencing of our minds , if that is the spirit of God then you will chose what God desires you to, but if you have not the spirit then a person choses what their Carnal minds desires them to do. All wills are influenced Wills there is no such thing as FREE WILLS, even GOD the FATHERS WILL is a influenced WILL, “For GOD does all things after he council of His own WILL”> Notice even God 's will is influenced by his own council. There never is or was a so-called (FREE WILL). only influenced Wills.
YOU ask what did i ever learn from Good or Evil experience You must be kidding how could you not learn something from all this exposure. Or do you think GOD allows this all for not reason, wouldn't that make Him a cruel GOD when he could have stopped it anytime he wants to. No all this has a great purpose in the end. Evil teaches us about Good and Good teaches us about Evil. we need both to get the proper understandings in our minds.
peace amd love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 07 2009,23:15)
Gene,If I understand right then, there are basically to influences,
GOOD and EVIL. Depending on the one I follow, the god of this world or the Creator God, I will make certain choices.
Is that about what you are saying?Quote YOU ask what did i ever learn from Good or Evil experience You must be kidding how could you not learn something from all this exposure. Or do you think GOD allows this all for not reason, Rather, Gene, I asked:
What do I learn from experiencing GOOD and EVIL? Apparently I do not learn to make right choices, good and evil both serving as influences. Do I choose as you say, “you will always chose the one the influences you the most” or
do I choose based on what God wants me to do at the moment (which is really not choice)?Quote wouldn't that make Him a cruel GOD when he could have stopped it anytime he wants to. Rather, I think it cruel that He hardens Pharaoh's heart and then kills the firstborn for the wrong choice Pharaoh made.
I'm working through that one. As you observe, “He could have stopped it anytime.”Quote we need both to get the proper understandings in our minds. To what end Gene, that I choose the right influence and thus make right choices?
Blessings,
Seeking
Seeking……. You said if i understand this right there a basically two influences good and evil, depending on the one i follow, the god of this world or the God of creation i will make certain choices…> First of all i never said you have just two influences those influences may fall in those two categories but you may have thousands of them , what i said was you will Chose the (STRONGEST) influence in you. If it is God's influence you will choose that, if it's the influence of the world you will choose that, which ever is the (greater) is what you (WILL) choose. Thats Why it says.” HE WORKS IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE”. How BY being the (greater influence) in US. “for greater is he that is in you then he that is in the world”, there is you answer about choosing the god of this world or the God of Creation.
What God did in Egypt serves the greater Purpose of God. To show He can do anything He so chooses to. You have to remember this (GOD the FATHER) is in (COMPLETE) Control of you, Me, and everything there is. He has a purpose in all this and that purpose is to teach all of Us who He is and what powers He has and What control He has over all creation. Just (ONE WILL) will be done and that is His Will. Many hate the thought of that, they want (their will to be done , not Gods will to be done) They want to be the captains of their salvations, by their own so-called (FREE WILL) Choices, never realizing they never ever had a FREE WILL in the First place. The were held captive by there Wills all along.
You said………. what do i learn from experiencing good and evil, hope fully you learn a lot by seeing for yourself the effects of both good and evil, you have gained the Knowledge about good and evil a privilege that GOD himself Has. (look man has become as we are to know good and evil) This knowledge does have influence on you and your decisions rather you realize it or not. But that doesn't change the fact the the greatest influence will lead your decisions , if its for the lust of money then you may choose to rob a bank, if its lust for a women then your will chose to do that, because all choices come from the greatest influencing going on in you mind. Why do you think it takes GOD'S Spirit (Intellect) to be in US, because without the influencing called (GRACE) we would continue to follow the influencing we recieved from the world. ” for all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the Pride of life comes from the World”. But thanks be to GOD His Power to influence Us is greater then the worlds. Without that Spirit (intellect) from GOD no one (overcomes) anything. We are all simply ships without a rudder to guide us and which ever way the wind blows we will go, that rudder is GOD'S Spirit.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,10:59) Quote Without that Spirit (intellect) from GOD no one (overcomes) anything. We are all simply ships without a rudder to guide us and which ever way the wind blows we will go, that rudder is GOD'S Spirit. Would this not mean that those not born again cannot choose
the right, regardless of influence, because they are devoid of the Spirit that enables that choice?Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Quote Thats Why it says.” HE WORKS IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE”. Does the Spirit of God work in sons of disobedience to overpower the spirit that is at work in them?
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in theIt rather seems that the influences from which all others stem,
GOOD and EVIL, put before us options and we must choose.Once man made that choice in the garden and became like gods, man was banished from the garden. He began following the “prince of the air.”
It appears there must be a transforming of the mind and a transfer of allegiance,
Rom 12:1-2 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
But I understand you to say, even though we theorize the GOOD vs. EVIL influences, we really had NO CHOICE as God's
influence is greater –Quote But thanks be to GOD His Power to influence Us is greater then the worlds. Quote Just (ONE WILL) will be done and that is His Will. If this is the inevitable, why did Jesus say, Luk 11:2 And he said to them, `When ye may pray, say ye: Our Father who art in the heavens; hallowed be Thy name: Thy reign come; Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on earth;
Quote Why do you think it takes GOD'S Spirit (Intellect) to be in US, because without the influencing called (GRACE) we would continue to follow the influencing we recieved from the world. Again, so you believe the Spirit of God is at work in the sons of disobedience and not that the Spirit is God's gift to believers?
Quote Many hate the thought of that, they want (their will to be done , not Gods will to be done) They want to be the captains of their salvations, by their own so-called (FREE WILL) Choices, never realizing they never ever had a FREE WILL in the First place. The were held captive by there Wills all along. I have not seen this as a part of my experience. Rather, I have seen many prodigals decide to go home to the father.
Why?Luk 15:17-18 “But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
Why coming to his senses and making a right choice is prideful
and of his morbid desire to be captain of his own salvation ship,I do not understand. I see it as humble and contrite repentance and a turning too God who alone can save.Seeking
seeking …………you are mixing up the unconverted with the converted , there is a big difference , not every one has the HOLY SPIRIT to work in them at this time. So you can't mix them up. Those who have not the spirit will choose from the greatest influencing in them , Just as those with the Spirit will choose from the greatest influencing in them,. “For He (GOD) that is in you, is greater then He (man) thats in the world, and this Greater influence is the GRACE of GOD at WORK in all who have Him in them. None of this has anything to do with so-called FREE WILL CHOICES, because there is no such thing as FREE WILL, only influenced Wills from past and present influences.
You say, you see it as a humble and contrite and repentance experience (turning) to GOD who alone saves. Question here is who causes the humble and contrite and repentance , is it your decision based on (FREE WILL) Choices, which would reelect on your own personal action, or is it by the effect of God Spirit working in a person. and if it is by GOD influencing you to do it then its not you is it, but GOD Himself that causing you to become humble and contrite and repentant. Then you would have to say, by GRACE I HAVE been SAVED and NOT by (ANY) works I have done. You are basically out of the picture when it come to your salvation, it (ALL) a work of GOD. Men Hate that, because it destroys their PRIDE, they have recieved from the WORLD. WE are the recipients of SALVATION. we don't bring it about by any of our so=called FREE WILL CHOICES. LEST ANY BOAST. Salvation is not a choice it is a CREATION of GOD. “For you are CREATED unto goodworks”, “it is a gift of GOD”.. and again “not by power nor by strength , but by (MY) Spirit Says the ETERNAL”> IMO
love and peace to you and yours………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 09 2009,21:23) Quote seeking …………you are mixing up the unconverted with the converted , there is a big difference , not every one has the HOLY SPIRIT to work in them at this time. So you can't mix them up. Those who have not the spirit will choose from the greatest influencing in them , Just as those with the Spirit will choose from the greatest influencing in them,. “For He (GOD) that is in you, is greater then He (man) thats in the world, Gene,
This makes sense. It does seem though, from experience, that those indwelt by God's Spirit – who is the greater influence -(greater is He that is in you) frequently follow the lesser influence. How is that ifone is compelled to follow the greater of the influences?
When God draws men to Himself, if they are totally devoid of His Spirit and have only the spirit of evil influencing them, how does God begin greater influence. Does His Spirit indwell the partially?
If God in us is always the greater influence, why do we ever make a wrong choice?
This is unfolding ofr me, but I still have a few lose ends here.
Blessings,
Seeking
seeking ……….You ask why do men still fail, lets let Paul answer this.. For when i would do good i find Evil in me, a law (force compliance) in my members (Flesh) that war against the law (force compliance ) of my mind (Spirit) these two are opposite one another, So i can not do the things i Would, “O” wretched man that i am who can deliver me from this (body)of death, he thanked GOD through Jesus Christ, that he would be delivered. So as long as we are in the flesh we can not please God completely. But if we continue to sow to the Spirit we will reap life, even if our bodies reap death. We should be overcoming more and more as we grow in (GRACE and Knowledge, but will we reach perfection in the flesh, i doubt it. One thing i do know as you get older and the body get weaker sin get weaker also, “For He who has suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin”. Remember with patience we are to poses our souls. Seeking if we keep seeking God and sowing to the Spirit we will be overcoming even now as far as how much i don't know but we should be doing better, as we go along. Don't get discouraged if you fail at times Paul did , but just get back up pray and ask God for help because it is Said He is faithful to forgive us, and cleanse us fro all unrighteousness. And remember we do have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 10 2009,20:34)
Gene,Good thoughts! I have always seen that little bit of Romans 7
differently than most folks. It seems used, most often, to justify a less than spirit filled walk. Until Paul's few verses on
struggle, he has spoken victory beginning in 6:1 (probably even before the) and relating the raising up to walk in newness of life. Even up to 7:6 he speaks of walking in “newness of Spirit.”I believe Paul is relating the only conclusion when we evaluate oourselves against the mirror of the law. He does not stay in that defeated mode long but quickly realizes his
victory.Rom 7:24-25; 8:1-2 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Your post was very encouraging! I was more interested in
why, if God is the greater influence always, we choose the lesser. It seems we make bad choices even with the stronger influence of God working.And how does the devoid of the Spirit of God find the way to take that first step toward God? Where does the good influence come from if the Spirit is not in them?
I am asking this part of the post again, I guess
Quote This makes sense. It does seem though, from experience, that those indwelt by God's Spirit – who is the greater influence -(greater is He that is in you) frequently follow the lesser influence. How is that ifone is compelled to follow the greater of the influences? When God draws men to Himself, if they are totally devoid of His Spirit and have only the spirit of evil influencing them, how does God begin greater influence. Does His Spirit indwell the partially?
Thank you for your positive words!!
Seeking
Seeking………Lets say God (could be the greatest influence always) but remember we are here to learn lessons and one is the effects of sin in our lives, so that we come to hate it. and may be that is why at this present time we do no completely overcome the effects of sin God could completely remove sin if He wanted to from US, but maybe its needful for some to remain until we all come unto full perfection together at the resurrection. “For we hope for that righteousness to come”. Maybe some sin is left to exercise our stead fastness and faith in the FATHER so when full deliverance finally comes our continued faith we have will produced its reward. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. Please do not take what i am saying as advocating sin , i am not brother. We should all strive to overcome sin in our lives daily.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 11 2009,09:03) Please do not take what i am saying as advocating sin , i am not brother. We should all strive to overcome sin in our lives daily.
Gene,So coud we say in a nutshell,
Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
Seeking
Seeking……………true brother. we need to continue, and if God Grace is working in us, we will strive for the High Calling brother. We have not reached it yet but we are not of them that turn back, no matter what, even if we sin , we get up and brush ourselves of and continue to strive for the kingdom of GOD. Always remember our calling of GOD is without revocation. We don't give up because of some sin or failure we have, the victory is our already through Jesus Christ our Lord and Better yet, our elder brother.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 11 2009,11:12) Seeking……………true brother. we need to continue, and if God Grace is working in us, we will strive for the High Calling brother. We have not reached it yet but we are not of them that turn back, no matter what, even if we sin , we get up and brush ourselves of and continue to strive for the kingdom of GOD. Always remember our calling of GOD is without revocation. We don't give up because of some sin or failure we have, the victory is our already through Jesus Christ our Lord and Better yet, our elder brother. love and peace to you and yours……………………………………gene
Amen! Thanks.Blessings
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