FAITH ALONE

Participant

GB,
Certainly the gnostics think they are enlightened.
But they do not abide in scripture, the work of the Spirit of God

February 12, 2009 at 8:46 am#121292

Participant

Seeking said:

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Here is where my “Seeking” has brought me –

Seeking,
Let's both keep it in a Christian like manner from now on. For some reason I especially like you (hugs and kisses). I don't know why I do. I just do.

I know that you are seeking for yourself. I was just saying that you haven't brought anything fresh against faith alone to the table. And I also feel that you might have a problem with anyone who thinks outside the evangelical box. So I offered the statement from Hebrews to show that a new covenant Christian ideally should be self taught.

thinker

February 12, 2009 at 9:09 am#121293

Participant

Nick said:

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What we have seen here in this forum is the gross overconfidence of many who think they have been saved and who claim they have the mind of Christ and are led by the Spirit in their thoughts and teachings, but the evidence from their pen shows they are adrift from the anchor of the soul and their words in no way reflect the Spirit of Christ.

Nick,
It has also been observed by some that you think yourself in a position to judge others who you think are disobedient to God. You have usurped the place of Christ. We are in the age of the new covenant now which is the age of conscience. But you have said that anyone not baptized is not fit to attend the wedding feast. This means that they're not saved. So you have decided who is saved and who is not saved.

Well, that excludes many of the gentiles in Paul's day for he said that God was justifying them according to the revelation of nature (Rom. 2). Paul was speaking of those who did not receive the “repent and be baptized” message. They were just as justified as those who did hear that message and believed. There will be more people in heaven than you think Nick. And they weill be GOD'S CHOSEN and not Nick's chosen.

Now you're suggesting that Gene is a Gnostic. So you have a lot of nerve accusing me of over confidence for it takes a really big amount of confidence to pronounce judgment upon people the way you have at times. Jesus said,

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Judge not that you be not judged. For the judgment you mete out will be meted out to you

You should thank your God that Christ's statement is old covenant and that you are no longer under the threat of condemnation. Fof if it applied today you would be in deep doo doo.

Yes, I am condfident. And I invite you to cut me down with solid biblical arguments.

thinker

February 12, 2009 at 9:40 am#121294

Participant

942767 wrote:

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Then the following scripture is no longer valid?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
942767 wrote”

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

It doesn't appear to me that we have reached the state described in verse 4:13 above.

Marty,
The expression “perfect man” simply means the mature man as opposed to the child. In Galatians 4 Paul taught that the gospel was leading them away from the law as children to full grown “sons”.

The church became a “mature man” by the time the apostles and prophets finished their work. So yes, we do NOT need pastors and teachers today. Many of the early post-apostolic churches recognized the principle in Hebrews 10 and they didn't have “pastors”. At times if a man was speaking he would be interupted by another who would challenge what he said. And some, but few recognize it today. The Plymouth brethren have been known to have several unordained men speak in their worship services.

We “ordain” pastors today because we're too lazy to study the scriptures on our own. But ordination as we know it is unbiblical for it involves the laying on of hands. And Hebrews says that the laying on of hands is of those “elementary principles” and we are warned to LEAVE those principles and to NOT lay again that foundation.

Hebrews 10 is clear that in the new covenant age “NONE shall teach his neighbor…for ALL shall know ME FROM THE GREATEST TO THE LEAST.”

Seeing that I am stuck with the present unbiblical system I must sit in the pew quietly and peacefully without interrupting the man (pastor) as was allowed in some of the post-apostolic churches. But I have on many occasions challenged the “pastor” at a later time. On one occasion the pastor said something that was ridiculous and had no biblical support whatsoever. So I challenged him about it and he ignored it at first. Then I called the church secretary and threatened to write a rebuttal to his sermon in the next church newsletter. The secretary relayed my threat to the pastor and that got his attention. Afterwards we talked about his sermon over the phone and he changed his mind on some things.

We are not an infant church anymore. We are now a body that is a “mature man”. And we should be acting like it. But we choose to remain like infants. So we “ordain” men to study the Bible for us. It's a shame I tell you.

love,
thinker

February 12, 2009 at 9:43 am#121295

Participant

Hi TT,
Where did I accuse you?
Yes we are again in an age of Conscience.
But the Spirit is meant to lead us according to the new inner law of love.
But we can refuse

February 12, 2009 at 10:01 am#121297

kerwin

Participant

The Thinker wrote:

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You should thank your God that Christ's statement is old covenant and that you are no longer under the threat of condemnation. For if it applied today you would be in deep doo doo.

Are you saying God changes because if you are you are certainly now worshipping the God of Jesus and since there is only one God your God is false?

The Thinker wrote:

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Yes, I am confident. And I invite you to cut me down with solid biblical arguments.

Please! You would not know a solid biblical argument if it bit you. You make up things to hide your shame from yourself. Wake up and do what is right. I assure you that if you claim you have faith and choose to live by your sinful nature you will not enter the kingdom of God even as it is written:

Galatians 5:19-21(NIV) reads:

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The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Jude speaks of those who claim to be Christians and yet do not obey God with these words:

Jude 1:3-4(NIV) reads

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Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I assure you the righteousness from God does come from faith from first to last but it is a real righteousness and not imitation as those men who condemnation was written about long ago claim. I hope you are not one of those men. As Jesus said “Repent or you too will perish”.

February 12, 2009 at 10:13 am#121298

kerwin

Participant

Nick,

What part of Gene's doctrine do you consider Gnosticism. I am convinced there are remnants of Gnosticism in the Christian Church today. One tenet is that the flesh is corrupt and the spirit is not. Scripture tells us the spirit of man is corrupt and that temptation comes from the flesh(sinful nature). Even in that I am wary of taking scripture to literally since it states desires of the heart and the heart is the main organ of the circulatory system.

February 12, 2009 at 12:47 pm#121302

SEEKING

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2009,15:49)

Thinker,

You reminded me –

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I was not the first person to ever mention “foot work” done. It was you who first posted that you took two years of Greek. So let's keep that in mind.

In looking back, you are right. I made a statement about Greek tenses which you challenged.

You then noted –

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I thought this was a bizarre coment and felt that I should answer it. I didn't bring up my “foot work” out of the blue you know. You gave me occasion to do so.

My response to your comment was reactionary too. I felt justified to make it at the time. But it was inappropriate and for that I apologize.

Thinking, you also shared –

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when I first saw your username “Seeking” I assumed that you think on your own which is what it means to be a new covenant Christian. Yet I find that you do not think outside the Evangelical box but you rather regurgitate tradition.

I do regret that your assumptions were not validated, in your opinion. As I come seeking I come with an honest and open heart and with no personal vendetta regarding tradition. I have questioned the standard Trinitarian understanding among others. These are, without a doubt, “out of the box” thoughts.

What the Lord made clear to me as I entered deeper into these discussions was that my responses were not in loving tones or manner. Now, I must move away from those things and those who draw out of me unChristlike actions. For me I find what Paul wrote apropos, “Bad company corrupts good character.”

So again, I leave this line of discussion with –

Forgive me for anything and everything I have done that did not clearly show a spirit of love.

In the spirit of His love,

Seeking

February 12, 2009 at 2:40 pm#121305

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 12 2009,11:07)

Martian wrote:

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You know we have a variety of education on this board. One thing that is very common is the amount of religious people that are on here.
You have those with little education in the word and continually post the same scriptures over and over again with their same opinion over and over. Then you have those that are the first to tell you about their Bible College
Education and ministries and then pride themaelves on their debate skills. These two groups either spout off highly intelecualised philosophy or repititous pander. Rarely do I see one of them that can actually tell me how their post will help me become like Christ. They do not build hope by their teachings. They do not make Christ a more understandable example. They muddy the waters with teachings that lead to mysteries that cannot be answered and concepts that cannot be proven. They never explain how their conclusions produce good fruit. All they can do is show you more head knowledge. Their philosophies lack the power of God to transform lives. Worst of all is that they seem to not care. Not only do they ignore the whole point of Christian ministry, to help others grow into the likeness of Christ, their doctrines actually call into question the character of God and the purposefulness of His plan.
For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help others

Martian,
You give off the same vibs in my opinion. You boasted that you're the only one here who uses sources and that all the rest of us are just stating our “opinion”. You argue that the sources are the “experts”. But when it comes right down to it you mean that only your sources are the experts. You forced me to produce a source when I tried to get you to comment on scripture in its context. It was like pulling teeth. I couldn't get you to comment on Scripture in context.

So I finally gave in and produced a source. And you dismissed it like I anticipated you would. You said that it was outdated and not up to the “archaeloogical digs” without even showing which archaeloogical digs refuted the Hebrew Grammar in my source. Are we to believe that new archaeological discoveries will change how Hebrew verbs were congugated in ancient times? If this is the case, then no one can know what Scripture says until the next archaeological discovery. We are left in the dark about God's word until men of “wisdom” come in the future with their findings.

And if my sources are tentative because all the evidence isn't in yet then ALL sources are tentative. This means that you can't speak with anymore confidence than I can. You boasted first that you are the only one here that uses sources and does not speak “opinion.” If you boast I will boast. I asked you only to comment on Scripture in context. You were the first to boast. So you're not pure in heart either,

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Who can say “I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin”? (Prov. 20:9)

thinker

Fine, lets throw out all sources and go by a better way of judging conclussions.
Here are a few questions one should ask of any conclussion.
1. How does this conclussion help me to be like christ?
2. How oes this conclussion make Chriat a more viable example for us?
3. How does this conclussion lend support to the plan of God for myself and others?
4. Does this conclussion draw into question the character of God?

It is like the man that owns a bakery. A sales man comes in a says he has a new recepe for bread. The baker looks over the recepe and it contains dirt. Being open minded he whips up a sample batch. Guess what, iy tastes like dirt. The salesman say wel we just have to twink the other ingrediants, so they play with the amounts of flour, sugar, milk and eggs. When the salesman is done they try another batch. It still taste like dirt.

The point is that if your result is wrong, then there has to be a problem with your ingreiants or your process. It is the same way with teaching. If your conclussion does not work to help a person become more like Christ, build hope or make Christ more of a viable example then the process or ingrediants must be wrong. If the end conclussion depends on changing the character of God then the process or ingrediants must be wrong.

Most of the time when I ask people on this board these simple questions, I can sense the puzzled looks on the other side. It never seems to occur to most that we actually need to fulfill a purpose or have a proper conclussion to our reams of discourse. A conclussion and purpose that actually moves the body of Christ forward.

February 12, 2009 at 2:49 pm#121306

Participant

For the above reasons I do not take this board very seriously.
For those on here that cannot answer those questions I posed. I am glad you are here because that means you have less time out messing up people in the real world.
As for me I take this as an entertainment venue and thats all. Like watching a football game and having about as much influince on the kingdom of God as that game.
The only benefit I have rceived from this board is to see if anyone can challenge my beliefs while being able to properly answer the questions I posted. I am looking for fruit that will change my life to be more like Christ. Winning a debate through a clever debate tactic or voicing a philosophy that cannot answer those questions does not produce fruit.

February 12, 2009 at 3:03 pm#121307

SEEKING

Participant

Quote (martian @ Feb. 12 2009,07:40)

It never seems to occur to most that we actually need to fulfill a purpose or have a proper conclussion to our reams of discourse. A conclussion and purpose that actually moves the body of Christ forward.

Martian,

Are these then some of our purposes and should these be our intent!

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but let us encourage one another–and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Heb.10:25

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And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else. 1Thess.5:14-15

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Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.1Thess.5:11

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So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
1Cor.14:12

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6 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.2Tim.2:16

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But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.Titus 3:9

Seeking

February 12, 2009 at 3:55 pm#121309

Participant

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 13 2009,02:03)

Quote (martian @ Feb. 12 2009,07:40)

Martian,

Are these then some of our purposes and should these be our intent!

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but let us encourage one another–and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Heb.10:25

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Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.1Thess.5:11

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So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
1Cor.14:12

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6 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.2Tim.2:16

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Seeking

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but let us encourage one another–and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Heb.10:25

Reply –
One of the questions I ask of doctrine is if it builds hope or encourages me. That is a good fruit.

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And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else. 1Thess.5:14-15

Reply –
A person can with an innocent heart think they are doing good and being kind up until they learn the wisdom that what they teach produces no good fruit or defames the character of God.
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Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.1Thess.5:11

Reply –
I am still waiting for many on here to tell me how their teaching builds hope or encourages me.
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So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
1Cor.14:12
Reply –
Builds the church to a perfect man without spot wrinkle or any such thing. Just like Jesus. Of course if a teaching clouds that perfect example of the anointed one or detracts from the perfect character of God, then you have to wonder what they hope to accomplish.

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6 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.2Tim.2:16

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But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.Titus 3:9

Reply –
As I said there are those that engage in and teach fruitless doctrine without any clue that they are wasting everyone’s time.
I have gone on and off this venue many times. I come back and find the boards full of mental ascension, philosophy, and fruitless teaching. Godless chatter that does nothing to help a person become more like Christ. The entire purpose of ministry is to help others to fulfill what God has for them. Primarily to help them become like Christ. That is why I do not consider thise board a ministry.

February 12, 2009 at 3:56 pm#121310

Participant

To All,
Before I do any more posting today I want to say that I have not been pleased with the tone this subject has taken. I am displeased with myself more than anyone on this board because I have been aggressive toward what I perceive to be attacks on me.

I am not a nasty person. I'm just a fighter. There were four of us kids growing up and my dad left my mom holding the bag. I was angry and joined a Chicago street gang at 15 years old. During the three years I was in the gang I received a lot of injuries due to gangbanging with other gangs and when I became older also due to starting saloon brawls. To this day I carry the marks in my body because of those injuries.

On another related matter. I want to offer a public apology to Martian for attributing to him personally what his source said.

Martian,
I apologize my friend. You had every right to request an apology from me and I was stubborn about it. I'm not nasty. I did it because I am a fighter but that comes across as nasty. I am not going to reply to your post concerning me today because I want to put that all behind us and to start new with you. I am going to PM you and invite you to discuss with me rules of debate that we both agree to.

thinker

February 12, 2009 at 4:13 pm#121312

GeneBalthrop

Participant

thinker………..good form brother, I also can be aggressive at times Some seem to trigger that in me more then others. We are told to have Salt in ourselves , but also have Peace.

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

February 12, 2009 at 4:36 pm#121314

SEEKING

Participant

Quote (martian @ Feb. 12 2009,08:55)

As I said there are those that engage in and teach fruitless doctrine without any clue that they are wasting everyone’s time.
I have gone on and off this venue many times. I come back and find the boards full of mental ascension, philosophy, and fruitless teaching. Godless chatter that does nothing to help a person become more like Christ.

I am beginning to see a softing of hearts, mine encluded, that
can lead to more efficient ministry to one another.

Perhaps many of us are what you describe, but, inspite of our inadequacies I see the Lord has stayed adequate to work softing of hearts and repentance.

I look forward to forward progress as we stay under His hand.

I'm hopefilled”

Seeking

February 12, 2009 at 4:55 pm#121317

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2009,02:56)

To All,
Before I do any more posting today I want to say that I have not been pleased with the tone this subject has taken. I am more displeased with myself more than anyone on this board because I have been aggressive toward what I perceive to be attacks on me.

On another related matter. I want to offer a public apology to Martian for attributing to him personally what his source said.

thinker

thinker,
I read your post and I accept your apology without reservation.
I know that I too can seem aggressive at times. This is especially true when I perceive a doctrine that defames the character of my heavenly Father or diminishes the example of my brother and Lord, Jesus.

As to rules for debate, I am not sure I am interested in debate. I am interested in results. I have from time to time posted rules of hermeneutics that I attempt to follow when interpreting scripture. These include using both sources and context. Unfortunately because you and I are detail focused the rules would need be as detailed. I doubt either of us want to write books instead of posts.
For me it boils down to the reason for scripture. I believe it can be summed up in one word. “HOPE”. The word details to us testimony that inspires hope. Like the scripture in Mal God's promises do not change because His character does not change. This gives us a hope we can rely upon. Christ, a perfected human, gives us hope in everything that he did from his teachings to his resurrection and inheritance. This gives us hope because His life is an example for us to follow.
If you really want to continue to discuss scripture with me, I invite you to check out the Ancient Hebrew Research Center.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

I believe it is possible for a teachable person to get a new insight into the scriptures from this site.

I also invite you to read my thread called “What God cannot do”.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….03af782

Although it is sometimes entertaining to relate commentary on scripture, I am more interested in others telling me how their doctrine works or functions to build hope in my heart to become like Christ. I find no interest in discussing teachings that rely on changing the character of God to make Him fit into them.
You have mentioned that you like to step outside of the box. Here is an invitation to do just that. Instead of taking the old trail of attempting to prove that your processes are correct, show me how the end conclusions of your processes further the plan of God for me. I am not interested in you showing me the money, I am interested in you showing me the fruit.

A good process/interpretation will produce good fruit. A bad process/interpretation will produce bad fruit or none at all.

Yours in The Master’s Service,
martian

February 12, 2009 at 6:16 pm#121330

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2009,21:13)

Nick,

Hi KW,
The word GNOSIS relates to KNOWLEDGE.

We are to rely for spiritual knowledge on what is written.

Gene does but he adds more than equal amounts of his own speculations such as saying Satan does not exist, God is of good and evil and the spirit is the intellect and all men will be saved.

He repeats these dogmas constantly and if shown scripture says that we need his spiritual mind to grasp these things, that much of scripture is allegorical and if we were spiritual we would agree with him.

So abiding in what is written is seemingly of no concern to him but his own knowledge and intuition is where he rests his foundation of understanding. Any foundation different from what God has given us is a form of gnosticism.

2Jn9

February 12, 2009 at 6:22 pm#121331

Participant

Hi martian,
You say
“I am still waiting for many on here to tell me how their teaching builds hope or encourages me.”

Nobody can give hope through teaching as it is preaching the gospel that gives that hope. It is only by seeking first the kingdom that hope can arise in our hearts and then teaching can upbuild on the foundation God places.

February 12, 2009 at 6:23 pm#121332