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Hi S,
You say
” 1) We are save by grace as a free gift – no works.2) When I err and am repentent the blood of Jesus
continues to cleanse me.3) In my walk I may wish to do or not do many things
eat meat or not, go to a church, take communion,
be baptized, give some of my money, sing, visit rest
homes, etc. but, Thinker, be clear that I do none of
it to be saved. I do it because I am saved and it is my
love response for the gift(s) given me by Jesus.”So who is among the saved and how do they know?
Is this gift given to all men such that all who were ever born are saved?Water baptism is not the works of the saved but part of the service of the sons of God.
Hi S,
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their failure to wash the inside of the pot.
It is done by the blood of Jesus according to our pleading in water baptism.Demons believe.
Seeking said:
Quote Many enjoy to think they have everything sorted out point in time and extend no room for growth in understanding. How much do I have to reach out to you before you lighten up a little? I never inferred that I have everything sorted out in point in time. I said that I strive to remove all inconsistency from my thinking. Just refute me if you can. No need to belittle. You expose your true character when you belittle.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 06 2009,17:06) .
Nick,Quote So who is among the saved and how do they know? The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.Gal. 6:8
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 2Cor.1:22
Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 2Cor.5:5
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory. Eph.1:4
If I may anticipate your next question, “How did I get the Spirit?” Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.
Quote Is this gift given to all men such that all who were ever born are saved? You have answered this time and again. Why do you ask what you know? Gifts must always be received or rejected,
don't they!In the future, to stay with the original intent and question on this thread, I will not bounce around unrelated inquiries.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 06 2009,17:43)
Thinker,“How much do I have to reach out to you before you lighten up a little? I never inferred that I have everything sorted out in point in time. I said that I strive to remove all inconsistency from my thinking. Just refute me if you can. No need to belittle. You expose your true character when you belittle.”
I hasten to add to my last post that I ask about dating, logic, etc. to learn.
Also, you mentioned elsewhere that you correct the “Pastor” and “Elders” if you feel, they are espousing or allowing to be espoused error.” Pray tell what church you attend where those people will allow such dialogue. I would like to find one.
Seeking
[/I][/QUOTE]I did not mean you specifically. I thought I could be taken that way and quickly added the above. The only difficulty I have with “Faith Alone” is with those who feel they can go on in sinful lifestyles claiming, ” I am saved by grace through faith alone.”as justification. That was a main objective in my
original question, “what does a faith walk look like.”I would prefer, ” saved by faith not works – after a belief and confession of Jesus as Lord and Savior.” When your confession is true your fruit will show it.
It seems to be a loose tossing about of faith alone has contributed to the situation I described above.
I felt the touch of your reaching out. Thanks!
Continued blessings,
Seeking
Hi S,
You say
“Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 2Cor.5:5And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory. Eph.1:4
So having the Spirit is sufficient?
There are many spirits and thus they must be tested.Matthew 7:22
” Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Cornelius was given the Spirit and Peter commanded he be baptised in water.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 06 2009,17:42) Quote It is done by the blood of Jesus according to our pleading in water baptism. Forgive me, I don't recall that scripture. I do recall –
Quote 1CO 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. You say –
Quote Demons believe. The verse in its
completness reads, 'and shudder.” Believers believe and praise.I must now return to and stick with the original intention of this thread which are not the continual challenging of one anogher. But, thanks for your thoughts – I have read them frequently.
Blessings,
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote did not mean you specifically. I thought I could be taken that way and quickly added the above. The only difficulty I have with “Faith Alone” is with those who feel they can go on in sinful lifestyles claiming, ” I am saved by grace through faith alone.”as justification. That was a main objective in my
original question, “what does a faith walk look like.”Seeking,
I don't know any “faith alone” Christians who believe that they can live any life they want. I certainly have not inferred this. I have said repeatedly that we were delivered from the law so that we “should serve in the newness of the spirit nad not in the oldness of the letter” (Rom. 7:6). We should serve the law! BUT our service is to be rendered in the spirit and not in the letter. Jesus said that the Father is seeking these kind of worshipers (John 4).Quote But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:23-24) It is those who require service according to the letter that speak judgmentally on this board. Marty told Gene that he is not right with God on the baptism issue and Nick says that if you're not baptized you're not “appropriately attired” for the wedding feast.
These kind of people think that they are not as sinful as the rest of mankind. But Jesus said,
Quote For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance (Matt. 9:13). Jesus spoke this word to those who obeyed according to the letter.
blessings,
thinkerHi TT,
The robe of righteousness of the Holy one is put on by sinners.
They have no righteousness of their own.Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:Hi S,
Quote
1CO 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were WASHED, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.Hi S,
Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?The blood of Jesus is not applied to those who read the bible and intellectually assent to the ways of God.
But the blood is applied to the obedient in faith.1Peter3
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 06 2009,18:47)
Thinker,I must confess to being a lousy communicator I guess.
Quote I don't know any “faith alone” Christians who believe that they can live any life they want. I certainly have not inferred this. You are right! You have not inferred that and I didn't mean to infer you had.
Quote The only difficulty I have with “Faith Alone” is with those who feel they can go on in sinful lifestyles claiming, ” I am saved by grace through faith alone.”as justification. Unfortunately, I have had many state this when living a very sordid life and attending church, claiming salvation, etc.
I pray you and I do not slip back into head butting. You wrote
Quote How much do I have to reach out to you before you lighten up a little? I wrote
Quote I did not mean you specifically. I thought I could be taken that way and quickly added the above. I felt the touch of your reaching out. Thanks!
I'd like to keep it at this tempo if we could.
Quote It is those who require service according to the letter that speak judgmentally on this board. Marty told Gene that he is not right with God on the baptism issue and Nick says that if you're not baptized you're not “appropriately attired” for the wedding feast. Yes indeed! It seems a spirit of meekness and gentleness is often lacking. I have noticed that efforts to point out the
condescending tones and judgementalness have been ignored and definately go unheeded.Often it is quoted,
Quote Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' But it never occurs to some that when you point fingers there are three pointing back at you. I, and others, have said we come here to discuss, learn, and perhaps even change. Others come to censore, correct, and condemn.
I often think of this scripture and I know it could mean me –
Quote The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God. 1Cor.8:2 I am interested in the date and prison you feel Paul was in
when he received the clearer gospel – only so I can piece this together more clearly for myself.Mutually saved by grace,
Seeking
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 06 2009,19:05) Hi S,
Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?The blood of Jesius is not applied to those who read the bible and intellectually assent to the ways of God.
But the blood is applied to the obedient in faith.1Peter3
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
I must now return to and stick with the original intention of this thread which are not the continual challenging of one anogher. But, thanks for your thoughts – I have read them frequentlySeeking
Hi S,
Is salvation by faith alone a gradual process or dramatic?
How do you know it is true and keep doubts at bay?What do you think of the need for the three heavenly witnesses?
1Jn5[esv]
5Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?6This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
Hi thethinker:
You say:
Quote It is those who require service according to the letter that speak judgmentally on this board. Marty told Gene that he is not right with God on the baptism issue and Nick says that if you're not baptized you're not “appropriately attired” for the wedding feast. I don't even know if Gene has baptized in water or not. I believe that the scriptures state that a believer should be baptized in water, and also, know that this is the intent of the scriptures through personal experience.
And so, I have given you scriptues to support what I know to be the truth. I am still studying an learning, and I don't know everything, but on this subject, my personal experience leaves no doubt that all believers should be baptized, and so, that is what I teach.
Quote
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
Martythinker said:
Quote I don't know any “faith alone” Christians who believe that they can live any life they want. I certainly have not inferred this.
Seeking replied:Quote You are right! You have not inferred that and I didn't mean to infer you had. Unfortunately, I have had many state this when living a very sordid life and attending church, claiming salvation, etc. Seeking,
I have seen this licentiousness by non-faith alone people too. Paul said:Quote Let him who thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall Seeking asked:
Quote I am interested in the date and prison you feel Paul was in
when he received the clearer gospel – only so I can piece this together more clearly for myself.Paul mentions his imprisonment in Ephesians in Ephesians 3:1 and 6:20. Many believe that Paul was referring to his two year house arrest recounted in Acts 28:30. During his imprisonment he received revelation of things that were “hidden” to all men in age past (3:1-13) These things that were “hidden” hadto do with the mystery of the gospel itself and also the inclusion of the Gentiles as fellow heirs.
Upon further study I have discovered that Paul was receiving revelation even before his imprisonment. In Rom. 3:21 he said that the righteousness of God APART from the law was NOW being revealed. And he said that HIS gospel was “kept secret” from the foundation of the world but was NOW being revealed (16:25-27). No other apostle claimed that the gospel he preached was HIS OWN. Paul's gospel was indeed the gospel of Christ for Christ revealed it to him. But it was Paul's own gospel in the sense that it was revealed to him exclusively and that it did not originate from man
Quote But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) It seems clear to me that the gospel message evolved from Jesus to Paul. I think it a mistake to think that Jesus spoke all there was to know about the gospel in the days of His flesh.
your friend,
thinkerQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 06 2009,21:14) Hi S,
Is salvation by faith alone a gradual process or dramatic?
How do you know it is true and keep doubts at bay?What do you think of the need for the three heavenly witnesses?
1Jn5[esv]
5Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?6This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
I must now return to and stick with the original intention of this thread which are not the continual challenging of one anogher. But, thanks for your thoughts – I have read them frequentlythethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Thinker,Quote I have seen this licentiousness by non-faith alone people too. Yes, of course. The Lord says:
“These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men. Is. 29:13MK 7:6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
” `These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.I believe it is why many claim their righteousness because they have kept the rules, yet their conversation, demeanor, etc. far from reflects the love of Christ.
Quote Paul's gospel was indeed the gospel of Christ for Christ revealed it to him. But it was Paul's own gospel in the sense that it was revealed to him exclusively and that it did not originate from man I am glad to have this clarity. It is the gospel of Christ come from Christ. It is “New” to the extent that no one preached it with the clarity of Paul. Paul also was not chastised for what he preached. The “false brothers” who would rob him of his freedom in Christ were not supported by the “seemed to be leaders” and circumcision was not demanded though it had been commanded.
GAL 2:1-5 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
This is a good beginning picture of the “faith alone walk” isn't it.
Quote But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) I see that. Others unveiled what they had been taught by men before them, didn't they! Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Mt.28:18-20
Quote I think it a mistake to think that Jesus spoke all there was to know about the gospel in the days of His flesh. Yes! That is consistent with Jesus' own words – But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. Jn.16:13-15
Blessings friend. Let's continue to open this up.
Seeking
I posted this on another thread, but I think it is applicable here too. I hope it is of benefit.
Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
April, 2005 Issue #014Word of the Month – Faith
Behold, he whose soul is not upright in him shall fail, but the righteous shall live by his faith. (Habakkuk 2:4 – ASV)What does it mean to have “faith” from an Hebraic perspective? In our western minds faith is a mental exercise in knowing that someone or something exists or will act. For instance, if we say “I have faith in God” we are saying “I know that God exists and do what he says he will do”.
The Hebrew word for faith is hnwma (emunah – Strong's #530) and is an action oriented word meaning “support”. This is important because the Western concept of faith places the action on the one you have faith in, such as “faith in God”. But, the Hebrew word hnwma places the action on the one who “supports God”. It is not knowing that God will act, but rather I will do what I can to support God. This idea of support for the word emunah can be seen in Exodus 17:12.
But Moses' hands grew weary; so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat upon it, and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side; so his hands were steady (emunah)until the going down of the sun.
It is the support/emunah of Aaron and Hur that held of Moses' arms, not the support/emunah of Moses. When we say “I have faith in God”, we should be thinking “I will do what I can to support God”.
End quote ——–
How do we support God? How did Jesus define faith?
Mat 9
2And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”What did Jesus see? Did He read some mental ascension in their minds? They took the action of brining the man to Him. It was an action that they took that was their faith.
Mat 9
20And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak;
21for she was saying to herself, “If I only touch His garment, I will get well.”
22But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.Again the woman took action and Jesus calls it faith.
Mat 9
27As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!”
28When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.”
29Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”What faith was He referring to? Their faith to follow and cry out to him. Another action.
Paul admonishes us to take actions associated with faith.
1 Cor 16
13Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
14Let all that you do be done in love.Many places in the NT it says to have faith in Jesus. The actual Greek words are to have faith “into” Jesus. Into Jesus? Into His body? Take action to do that which makes you a part of Christ body. Every joint supplying and doing what it was designed to do.
Now some might think I am speaking of works. I am not. Dead works are those that are done outside of God’s desires. Works we do to try to curry God’s favor and done with wrong motives. Actions taken that support and are in agreement with God purposes bear good fruit and are accounted toward us as righteousness.Righteousness is an interesting word in Hebrew. It means to stay on the right path. We are to travel from glory to glory and remain on the path God designed for us. Traveling the path requires an action on our part.
What actions can we take today? I am not talking about haphazard actions or doing everything thing we can think of. First we would need to seek God for wisdom to see what actions will be productive and functional in His plan. Just going about praying for every person we see may not be a productive way to accomplish and support God’s plan. Perhaps it would be wise to seek God’s desire on the matter and then proceed. God knows the hearts, intentions and motives of men. He may need one to stay sick a bit longer to teach them humility, While another is ready to be released from their illness. The key is to walk “with God” and to be aware of His plan, nature, character, and desires for His creation. To always seek to do His will and not seek to do our own.
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