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Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2014,15:27) Wakeup, Chapter 22
From there I proceeded to another spot, where I saw on the west a great and lofty mountain, a strong rock, **and four delightful places**.2Internally it was deep, capacious, and very smooth; as smooth as if it had been rolled over: it was both deep and dark to behold.
3Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, These are the delightful places where the spirits, the *souls* of the dead, **will be** collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected **all the souls of the sons of men**.
DEAD CHRISTIANS WILL WAIT THERE UNTILL THE COMING,
BUT THE REST UNTILL THE SECOND JUDGEMENT.4These places, in which they dwell, shall they occupy until the day of judgment, and until their appointed period.
5Their appointed period will be long, even **until the great judgment**. And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing.
6Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses?
7He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed be destroyed from the face of the earth;
Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
8Until his seed perish from the seed of the human race.
THE SEED OF MURDERERS.
9At that time therefore I inquired respecting him, and respecting the general judgment, saying, Why is one separated from another?
Enoch was shown where the spirits of the dead go,after death. They are all preserved **in four different places** in that mountain.The good spirits have a nice waiting place but the bad spirits have a very dark place.
Abel was symbolically accusing cain,for his death.
Proverbs 10:7 The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Jesus also spoke of the land of the dead in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Do that land exist or not?
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,01:47) Wakeup, Jesus also spoke of the land of the dead in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Do that land exist or not?
Kerwin.Jesus was speaking of the punishment of fire.
To teach them that there will be a punishment.
Not land; but a place.Enoch speaks of how the souls of the dead are presurved
for judgement. Which make sense. There must be a place where they are kept. They are not roaming around like what the world teach.wakeup.
Hi WU,
No, not the lake of fire
Lk1619 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 27 2014,06:55) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,01:47) Wakeup, Jesus also spoke of the land of the dead in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Do that land exist or not?
Kerwin.Jesus was speaking of the punishment of fire.
To teach them that there will be a punishment.
Not land; but a place.Enoch speaks of how the souls of the dead are presurved
for judgement. Which make sense. There must be a place where they are kept. They are not roaming around like what the world teach.wakeup.
Wakeup,Jesus was not speaking of the lake of fire, though that also is called Hell in the AV of the KJV.
He is teaching us that the wicked dead dwell in torment while the righteous dead dwell in comfort as they both await Judgement Day. Nick already quoted a passage where Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire. 1 Enoch 22:11 speaks of the torment of the wicked though Scripture trumps the book of 1 Enoch.
Kerwin…….Where in the Parable does it say the rich man was wicked, it simply say the rich man received the good things in his life, while the poor man Lazarus the Evil things in his life. Perhaps the parable is showing us suffering is necessary for all to go through rather now or in the future. for i reckon that the present suffering of this life is not to be compared to the glorious liberty that shall be revealed in us. Suffering seem to be a necessary component for all this life to go through either now or latter. For you shall all be salted with fire we are told.
Taking the parable as literal may pose a problem Kerwin, as other scriptures show the dead know nothing their thoughts parish. If a person was not truly dead and were still alive after they die, then the term dead could no be use right? We have for a long time now had a different view on this point about a soul still alive after death, I can see no reason for a resurrection at all if indeed the soul is still alive after a person dies, and why is there a risk of a second death if a person is not resurrect back to life and Judged and given a chance of repentance to attain to eternal life again. All i am saying is there are a lot of issues with that parable kerwin that need explaining. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
nick wrote:[/quote]
Quote Hi j42,
You say
“The christians are persecuted in the 5th seal.”
Yes. The end time christians join all the others that were persecuted for Christ's sake in the past.Quote Rev 6 speaks of those who had been martyred for their WITNESS to the Word of God.
They are vengeful and impatient for justice.Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, that should be killed s they were, should be fulfilled.
Hi Nick
It is the dead that are saying “How long, Lord till you avenge our blood on them. This is only a metaphor, because they are dead and don't know what is going on in the land of the living. They died a long time ago. So God is just saying, , I will avenge them for you, but wait till your brothers, that will be persecuted join you (in death), for then I will avenge. It is God himself that is eager to avenge.
I know from Daniel that this will take approx 3 years to kill all the saints. The major persecutions will happen in this 5th seal. All those who refuse the mark of the beast will join their dead brothers. Then the false prophet will occupy Israel for 3 1/2 years.
The false prophet will be here for 2300 days (6.39 yrs).Dan 8:14Quote We know from Mt 24.14 that the good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a WITNESS to all the nations.
Yes, and there is a cut off point.Quote I suspect that this group are the Jewish remnant who are the two witnesses [Israel and Judah] of Rev 11 and who are martyred.
The two witnesses are not the jewish remnant. The remnant come after Christ destroys Babylon. The two witnesses are sent to torment the world for killing the saints, and yes they are witnesses, but not the same that matthew 24:14 is talking about.Quote But I stand to be corrected
For what?Quote (journey42 @ April 28 2014,00:49) nick wrote:[/quote]
Quote Hi j42,
You say
“The christians are persecuted in the 5th seal.”
Yes. The end time christians join all the others that were persecuted for Christ's sake in the past.Quote Rev 6 speaks of those who had been martyred for their WITNESS to the Word of God.
They are vengeful and impatient for justice.Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, that should be killed s they were, should be fulfilled.
Hi Nick
It is the dead that are saying “How long, Lord till you avenge our blood on them. This is only a metaphor, because they are dead and don't know what is going on in the land of the living. They died a long time ago. So God is just saying, , I will avenge them for you, but wait till your brothers, that will be persecuted join you (in death), for then I will avenge. It is God himself that is eager to avenge.
I know from Daniel that this will take approx 3 years to kill all the saints. The major persecutions will happen in this 5th seal. All those who refuse the mark of the beast will join their dead brothers. Then the false prophet will occupy Israel for 3 1/2 years.
The false prophet will be here for 2300 days (6.39 yrs).Dan 8:14Quote We know from Mt 24.14 that the good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a WITNESS to all the nations.
Yes, and there is a cut off point.Quote I suspect that this group are the Jewish remnant who are the two witnesses [Israel and Judah] of Rev 11 and who are martyred.
The two witnesses are not the jewish remnant. The remnant come after Christ destroys Babylon. The two witnesses are sent to torment the world for killing the saints, and yes they are witnesses, but not the same that matthew 24:14 is talking about.Quote But I stand to be corrected
For what?
Journey42………I agree with you it is a Metaphor , because the dead know nothing we are told. There thoughts or thinking process has ceased.peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene,
I am addressing Wakeup with information about the teachings of that age that come from the book of 1 Enoch,
Quote Taking the parable as literal may pose a problem Kerwin, as other scriptures show the dead know nothing their thoughts perish. If Jesus says something and I or anyone else interpret Scripture to disagree with it then it is the interpretation I will doubt. I also have to make sure that I understand Jesus correctly. In this case Jesus is basing his teaching on the teaching that there is place where dead souls reside. A variation of this teaching is in the book of 1 Enoch. Now either that teaching is complete heresy or it has at least some truth in it. If you claim there is no place of the dead then you are claiming Jesus based his parable of heresy. That would be accusing Jesus of sinning as heresy is a sin. Since Jesus did not sin it follow that your chosen interpretation of the passage with the phrase “the dead know nothing” in it, is flawed.
Kerwin……Jesus was speaking a analytically story, he never said it actually took place, it is just to drive home a point, Just as the rest of his Parables do. Enoch is a highly contested book, some parts may be true, but others seem to disagree with our present scriptures we have.
But what our present scriptures say about the state of the dead is clear in many places , it clearly says Ecc 9:5….> For the living know that they shall die: but the dead “KNOW NOT ANY THINK”, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten, (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now “PERISHED”; neither have they any more a portion “FOREVER” in any thing that is done under the sun. and verse (10) Whatever thy hand finds to do do it with thy might; for there is “NO WORK”, nor devise “NOR KNOWLEDGE” nor “WISDOM” in the grave where you go.
Rev20:5…> But the rest of the dead lived “NOT AGAIN UNTIL” the thousand years were finished, This is the first resurrection.But Kerwin you are saying they are still alive in the Grave , where judgement is taking place, but scripture say they are judged after they are resurrected in the great white throne Judgement, when the books are opened and the dead are then judged out of what is written in it.
There are to many scriptures that go against what you are saying on this one Kerwin. IMO, but i still think about it.
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Nick……Sheol is simply another word for grave as i recall, years ago i made a study of that word and it was Hebrew for grave and the Greek word is Hell or Latin Hellos, which we get from the Latin/English for to put under the ground. The English would say they put their potatoes in Hell meaning underground. Sheol is the Hebrew word for what we call the grave, as i recall. Perhaps you can quote some scriptures and we can go into them brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Hi GB,
39.Proverbs 9:18
But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of Sheol.Hi GB,
Is 14
‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’15
“Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.16
“Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdomsHi GB,
63.Amos 9:2
“Though they dig into Sheol, From there will My hand take them; And though they ascend to heaven, From there will I bring them down.64.Jonah 2:2
and he said, “I called out of my distress to the Lord, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice.Gene,
You then believe Jesus used heresy in his parable and I find your belief odious as it accuses Jesus of sin. That is our choices.
Note: Corrected from a bad English moment.
Nick…..None of those scriptures say there is life in the Grave, if they did then that would a counteraction of the scriptures i quoted which show there is no life after death, until a Resurrection takes place, We cant ignore scriptures to make our own view prevail. Pleas show a single scripture that says there is life in death, in Sheol, or the grave. All the scriptures you have posted do not say there is a living being still alive when he dies.
As far as Jonah goes no scripture says he was dead, While it does say he was in the belly of a whale, he was being kept alive by God for a future work. He was resurrected as it were three days later, Jesus used this as an analogy of him being dead in the grave for three days and three nights also. The difference is Jesus said he was “DEAD” scripture does not say Jonah was dead as i recall.
My major point is you have produced no scripture that say a person is alive after he has died. rather in the grave or hell or Sheol, or pit, but i have produce a clear cut scripture the say there is no Thought process after death, the grave or Sheol is simply a place where the dead are put, Sheol is a PLACE, not a state of Being. And those who are and placed dead in Sheol, or (grave, hell, pit, under ground) are not active at all according to the direct and clearly worded scriptures I and others have posted .
So what is your take on those scriptures Nick?, are we to just ignore those clear and literal scriptures, or accept a teaching that can be taken in many different ways?
Are we to take Parables as Literal things, or are we to see the points they are driving at?. Metaphors as fact?, symbolic language as actual fact, Proverbs, (fictitious illustrations as fact). This is what causes so much confusion in religion.
Nick the very word DEAD, means NO LIFE and a person who have no Life in him is not aware of anything going on around him, he simply no longer exists, except with God where his spirit goes back to is. There is no “LIVING SOUL” after death, there is only a DEAD one.
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
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