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Journey……….You are putting things that take place after the millennial reign of Jesus and the resurrected saints before it happens. All man kind who have livid and dies have gone through great tribulations we all have in this life.
A key to consider….> Notice it say they fled fro from the face of hims that “SITS” on the throne (that is God) “and from the Lamb (that is Jesus) Now Jesus will turn over “HIS” throne to God the Father (AFTER HIS THOUSAND YEAR REIGN), so the throne is his for that period of time , not the Fathers, because we are told in cor. that at the end of the thousand year rule of Jesus and the saints, he will turn over the throne to God the Father, and become subject to it himself, just as we are.
Your mixing up the time periods , read what Jesus said would be the sign of His return and the Resurrection of the Saints. He said nothing about those events taking place before his return. There is a lot of speculation going on here. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
Gene wrote:[/quote]
Quote Journey……….You are putting things that take place after the millennial reign of Jesus and the resurrected saints before it happens. All man kind who have livid and dies have gone through great tribulations we all have in this life.
Gene,
What post and quote are you referring to just to clarify? If it's the one before this I have put nothing after the millennial reign. All happening leading up to the Coming.Quote A key to consider….> Notice it say they fled fro from the face of hims that “SITS” on the throne (that is God) “and from the Lamb (that is Jesus) Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
This is the coming Gene. Before the millennium. The 7th trump is about to sound.Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Babylon the Great about to be destroyed. Her system gone forever.Quote Now Jesus will turn over “HIS” throne to God the Father (AFTER HIS THOUSAND YEAR REIGN), so the throne is his for that period of time ,
Correct, did I say any different?Quote not the Fathers, because we are told in cor. that at the end of the thousand year rule of Jesus and the saints, he will turn over the throne to God the Father, and become subject to it himself, just as we are.
Yes I know that. What's this got to do with the order of events. What you are speaking about is another thousand years away.Quote Your mixing up the time periods , read what Jesus said would be the sign of His return and the Resurrection of the Saints. He said nothing about those events taking place before his return. There is a lot of speculation going on here. IMO
There's 7 seals leading up to the return of Christ.
The first 2 seals are gone past, we are in the third seal, (the 3rd horse is running) but all must be fulfilled before the 4th horse (the pale horse) arrives.
The christians are persecuted in the 5th seal.
At the 6th seal, the first 6 trumpets will blow.
At the 7th Seal, the 7th trumpet will blow. This is the Coming. The saints will be resurrected at the 7th trumpet.
What is so hard to understand about that?
What verse in Rev is confusing you?
Where am I putting an event after the 1000 years?
All happens before leading up to the coming.Journey,
Revelation 6 speaks of the opening of the first six seals and then 8 speaks of the opening of the Seventh Seal. It is all one vision, the vision of the seven seals.
Journey,
The seven trumpets are not given to the angels until the seventh seal is opened.
Revelation 8:1-2
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2014,12:43) Journey, The seven trumpets are not given to the angels until the seventh seal is opened.
Revelation 8:1-2
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
KerwinI explained all that to you already.
I'll try again, because I want you to know, even if I have to explain 100 times.These are visions given to John.
He gets a vision of the first six seals. They all have a tiny bit of information, but not in much detail.In the sixth seal, the 7 trumpets get poured out, but the details are not given here in the 6th seal. The information given is cut short.
In the few verses, they are hiding, and waiting for the wrath of the lamb. That is the coming. The day before or so. So all the trumpets/vials have been poured out already, just not mentioned yet.Now in the seventh seal, the DETAILS of the seven trumpets are revealed. That is what the 7th seal is, THE REVEALING of the TRUMPETS ….the DETAILS of what those trumpets consist of…(7 bowls of wrath/7 angels,7 vials, all the same)
these EVENTS that will happen with each trumpet are now shown.These happened in the 6th seal already. …because all the trumpets lead up to the Coming.
The earthquake, the kings of the earth, and everyman, hiding in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains are very afraid, and the sun being black, and the moon being red are all signs just before Christ appears.
So the trumpets have all been blown, except for the last one at this stage.Can you understand this now?
I appreciate you asking questions by the way.
I know it's confusing at first, but not once you understand.Hi j42,
You say
“The christians are persecuted in the 5th seal.”Rev 6 speaks of those who had been martyred for their WITNESS to the Word of God.
They are vengeful and impatient for justice.We know from Mt 24.14 that the good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a WITNESS to all the nations.
I suspect that this group are the Jewish remnant who are the two witnesses [Israel and Judah] of Rev 11 and who are martyred.
But I stand to be correctedQuote (kerwin @ April 23 2014,06:18) journey42, I know what you say is not written and that the seven seals were opened in order.
Kerwin.Thank you for that;its very interesting to read it again.
1In that place I beheld a fountain of righteousness, which never failed, encircled by many springs of wisdom. Of these all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy.
2In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days.
3Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits. A support shall he be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations.
4He shall be the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All, who dwell on earth, shall fall down and worship before him; shall bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the name of the Lord of spirits.
5Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.
6In his presence he existed, and has revealed to the saints and to the righteous the wisdom of the Lord of spirits; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and rejected this world of iniquity, and have detested all its works and ways, in the name of the Lord of spirits.
7For in his name shall they be preserved; and his will shall be their life. In those days shall the kings of the earth and the mighty men, who have gained the world by their achievements, become humble in countenance.
8For in the day of their anxiety and trouble their souls shall not be saved; and they shall be in subjection to those whom I have chosen.
9I will cast them like hay into the fire, and like lead into the water. Thus shall they burn in the presence of the righteous, and sink in the presence of the holy; nor shall a tenth part of them be found.
10But in the day of their trouble, the world shall obtain tranquillity.
11In his presence shall they fall, and not be raised up again; nor shall there be any one to take them out of his hands, and to lift them up: for they have denied the Lord of spirits, and his Messiah. The name of the Lord of spirits shall be blessed.
wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2014,15:26) Wakeup, Where is that written as all I see are verse numbers.
Kerwin.Sorry,I should have include the chapters.
I'll ckeck it out.1Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.
2Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.
3In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.
4In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.
5I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.
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Chapter 46******
1There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days.
2He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwelt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness.
3This Son of man, whom you behold, shall raise up kings and the mighty from their dwelling places, and the powerful from their thrones; shall loosen the bridles of the powerful, and break in pieces the teeth of sinners.
4He shall hurl kings from their thrones and their dominions; because they will not exalt and praise him, nor humble themselves before him, by whom their kingdoms were granted to them. The countenance likewise of the mighty shall He cast down, filling them with confusion. Darkness shall be their habitation, and worms shall be their bed; nor from that their bed shall they hope to be again raised, because they exalted not the name of the Lord of spirits.
5They shall condemn the stars of heaven, shall lift up their hands against the Most High, shall tread upon and inhabit the earth, exhibiting all their acts of iniquity, even their works of iniquity. Their strength shall be in their riches, and their faith in the gods whom they have formed with their own hands. They shall deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and shall expel him from the temples, in which they assemble;
6And with him the faithful, (43) who suffer in the name of the Lord of spirits.
(43) Shall expel him…the faithful. Or, “will be driven from the houses of his congregation, and of the faithful” (Knibb, p. 132; cp. Charles, p. 131).
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Chapter 47*****
1In that day the prayer of the holy and the righteous, and the blood of the righteous, shall ascend from the earth into the presence of the Lord of spirits.
2In that day shall the holy ones assemble, who dwell above the heavens, and with united voice petition, supplicate, praise, laud, and bless the name of the Lord of spirits, on account of the blood of the righteous which has been shed; that the prayer of the righteous may not be intermitted before the Lord of spirits; that for them he would execute judgment; and that his patience may not endure for ever. (44)
(44) That his patience…endure for ever. Or, “(that) their patience may not have to last for ever” (Knibb, p. 133).
3At that time I beheld the Ancient of days, while he sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were above the heavens stood around and before him.
4Then were the hearts of the saints full of joy, because the consummation of righteousness was arrived, the supplication of the saints heard, and the blood of the righteous appreciated by the Lord of spirits.
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Chapter 48******
1In that place I beheld a fountain of righteousness, which never failed, encircled by many springs of wisdom. Of these all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy.
2In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days.
3Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits. A support shall he be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations.
4He shall be the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All, who dwell on earth, shall fall down and worship before him; shall bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the name of the Lord of spirits.
5Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.
6In his presence he existed, and has revealed to the saints and to the righteous the wisdom of the Lord of spirits; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and rejected this world of iniquity, and have detested all its works and ways, in the name of the Lord of spirits.
7For in his name shall they be preserved; and his will shall be their life. In those days shall the kings of the earth and the mighty men, who have gained the world by their achievements, become humble in countenance.
8For in the day of their anxiety and trouble their souls shall not be saved; and they shall be in subjection to those whom I have chosen.
9I will cast them like hay into the fire, and like lead into the water. Thus shall they burn in the presence of the righteous, and sink in the presence of the holy; nor shall a tenth part of them be found.
10But in the day of their trouble, the world shall obtain tranquillity.
11In his presence shall they fall, and not be raised up again; nor shall there be any one to take them out of his hands, and to lift them up: for they have denied the Lord of spirits, and his Messiah. The name of the Lord of spirits shall be blessed.
Chapter 48A(45)
(45) Two consecutive chapters are numbered “48.”
1Wisdom is poured forth like water, and glory fails not before him for ever and ever; for potent is he in all the secrets of righteousness.
2But iniquity passes away like a shadow, and possesses not a fixed station: for the Elect One stands before the Lord of spirits; and his glory is for ever and ever; and his power from generation to generation.
3With him dwells the spirit of intellectual wisdom, the spirit of instruction and of power, and the spirit of those who sleep in righteousness; he shall judge secret things.
4Nor shall any be able to utter a single word before him; for the Elect One is in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, according to his own pleasure.
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Chapter 49******
1In those days the saints and the chosen shall undergo a change. The ligh
t of day shall rest upon them; and the splendour and glory of the saints shall be changed.2In the day of trouble evil shall be heaped up upon sinners; but the righteous shall triumph in the name of the Lord of spirits.
3Others shall be made to see, that they must repent, and forsake the works of their hands; and that glory awaits them not in the presence of the Lord of spirits; yet that by his name they may be saved. The Lord of spirits will have compassion on them; for great is his mercy; and righteousness is in his judgment, and in the presence of his glory; nor in his judgment shall iniquity stand. He who repents not before him shall perish.
4Henceforward I will not have mercy on them, saith the Lord of spirits.
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Chapter 50******
1In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell deliver up from hers, that which it has received; and destruction shall restore that which it owes.
2He shall select the righteous and holy from among them; for the day of their salvation has approached.
3And in those days shall the Elect One sit upon his throne, while every secret of intellectual wisdom shall proceed from his mouth, for the Lord of spirits has gifted and glorified him.
4In those days the mountains shall skip like rams, and the hills shall leap like young sheep (46) satiated with milk; and all the righteous shall become like angels in heaven.
(46) Cp. Psalm 114:4
5Their countenance shall be bright with joy; for in those days shall the Elect One be exalted. The earth shall rejoice; the righteous shall inhabit it, and the elect possess it.
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Chapter 51******
1After that period, in the place where I had seen every secret sight, I was snatched up in a whirlwind, and carried off westwards.
2There my eyes beheld the secrets of heaven, and all which existed on earth; a mountain of iron, a mountain of copper, a mountain of silver, a mountain of gold, a mountain of fluid metal, and a mountain of lead.
3And I inquired of the angel who went with me, saying, What are these things, which in secret I behold?
4He said, All these things which you behold shall be for the dominion of the Messiah, that he may command, and be powerful upon earth.
5And that angel of peace answered me, saying, Wait but a short time, and you shalt understand, and every secret thing shall be revealed to you, which the Lord of spirits has decreed. Those mountains which you have seen, the mountain of iron, the mountain of copper, the mountain of silver, the mountain of gold, the mountain of fluid metal, and the mountain of lead, all these in the presence of the Elect One shall be like a honeycomb before the fire, and like water descending from above upon these mountains; and shall become debilitated before his feet.
6In those days men shall not be saved by gold and by silver.
7Nor shall they have it in their power to secure themselves, and to fly.
8There shall be neither iron for was, nor a coat of mail for the breast.
9Copper shall be useless; useless also that which neither rusts nor consumes away; and lead shall not be coveted.
10All these things shall be rejected, and perish from off the earth, when the Elect One shall appear in the presence of the Lord of spirits.
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Chapter 52*****
1There my eyes beheld a deep valley; and wide was its entrance.
2All who dwell on land, on the sea, and in islands, shall bring to it gifts, presents, and offerings; yet that deep valley shall not be full. Their hands shall commit iniquity. Whatsoever they produce by labour, the sinners shall devour with crime. But they shall perish from the face of the Lord of spirits, and from the face of his earth. They shall stand up, and shall not fail for ever and ever.
3I beheld the angels of punishment, who were dwelling there, and preparing every instrument of Satan.
4Then I inquired of the angel of peace, who proceeded with me, for whom those instruments were preparing.
5He said, These they are preparing for the kings and powerful ones of the earth, that thus they may perish.
6After which the righteous and chosen house of his congregation shall appear, and thenceforward unchangeable in the name of the Lord of spirits.
7Nor shall those mountains exist in his presence as the earth and the hills, as the fountains of water exist. And the righteous shall be relieved from the vexation of sinners.
wakeup
Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2014,15:26) Wakeup, Where is that written as all I see are verse numbers.
Kerwin.That was chapter 48.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
The book of 1 Enoch speaks of the land of the dead. Isn't your doctrine at odds with that teaching?
Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2014,17:38) Wakeup, The book of 1 Enoch speaks of the land of the dead. Isn't your doctrine at odds with that teaching?
Kerwin .I will check that out.
wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2014,17:38) Wakeup, The book of 1 Enoch speaks of the land of the dead. Isn't your doctrine at odds with that teaching?
Kerwin.Do you mean this.
1In that day the prayer of the holy and the righteous, and the blood of the righteous, shall ascend from the earth into the presence of the Lord of spirits.
2In that day shall the holy ones assemble, who dwell above the heavens, and with united voice petition, supplicate, praise, laud, and bless the name of the Lord of spirits, on account of the blood of the righteous which has been shed; that the prayer of the righteous may not be intermitted before the Lord of spirits; that for them he would execute judgment; and that his patience may not endure for ever. (44)
wakeup.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2014,05:41) Hi WU,
Why divert the thread?
Nick.We are just having a break from
your baseless accusations.wakeup.
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