Exposing freak greek

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,11:09)

Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,09:18) Both Jesus as a man died, His Spirit went back to God, but Jesus never was deity before.  He was like the Angels.  All Son's of God.  I am not going as far to say that Jesus was one of the Angels.  Jehovah God sent Him to earth to die for us.  After His resurrection, Jehovah God awarded Him with deity or immortality, never to die again.  If Jesus would have had immortality or if He was deity, He could not have died for us.  Will we have immortality?  Truthfully I don't know.  I think that the elect and all those who died for Christ in the first three centuries, they that were persecuted thrown to Lions etc.  IMO will.  The meek will inherit the earth…. OPeace Irene Good stuff Irene.

Yeah, Mike, thanks…..Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Bumped for Keith:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2011,12:04)

but lets just say it is a “possibility” that it could be though the scholars have opinions as to why it should or shouldn't be.

Thank you Keith.

That's all I've wanted from the beginning.  Now that we can agree that “a god” is at least a possible translation, we can each make our arguments for which rendering best fits in with the rest of the scriptures.  I would like to start with this comment you made:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2011,13:04)

According to this Mike, if you look at the “grammatical” use of “theos” by John in every place outside of John 1:1 and John 1:18 where the singular form of the word is used it is always referring to the “One True God”. That means that 250 times out of 252 times John uses the word in the singular form he is referring to the “One True God”. That should tell you something.

You said “According to this………”.  What I want to know is if you agree with the source you were paraphrasing.  Keith, do you agree with the findings of the source you paraphrased above?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2011,12:04)

Here is my one question… Was John the Beloved a Polytheist who believed in other gods? Yes or no!

Keith, as often happens for me in scriptural discussions, I have been lead directly to the answer through a post Kar made in the “god the angel” thread.

“-Monotheism is related to henotheism (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) and monolatrism (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity). -“

(wikipedia on Monotheism)

Only Trinitarians and Kathy support the WORSHIP of more than one god, which would be “polytheism”.  What the scriptures clearly teach is more like the above definitions of either “henotheism” or “monolatrism”.

And to prove this you need only reflect on five things for now:

1.  Did Paul clearly and without mincing words say that there are MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth?

2.  Was Satan called a god?

3.  Did John not record Jesus' own words that his God had spoken through the Holy Spirit years before about other gods?  (John 10:35)

4.  Is Jehovah the God OF gods?

5.  Does Jehovah preside in the assembly of gods and render judgement among those gods?

These are not questions you are requested to answer, only scriptural facts that you cannot deny.  And each of these 5 scriptural truths show that the Bible does not teach only one literal god to the exclusion of any other gods at all.

So to answer your question, John did not promote the WORSHIP of more than one god, which would be “polytheism”.  But John surely knew of the EXISTENCE of more than one being who was called by the title of “theos” or “elohim”…………..for John knew the scriptures and the words of Jesus.  So “YES”, John “believed in” other gods, for he believed in the existence of Satan, for example.  But “NO”, this belief did not then, nor does it now, make John or anyone else a “polytheist”.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Bump

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2011,12:04) but lets just say it is a “possibility” that it could be though the scholars have opinions as to why it should or shouldn't be. Thank you Keith. That's all I've wanted from the beginning.  Now that we can agree that “a god” is at least a possible translation, we can each make our arguments for which rendering best fits in with the rest of the scriptures.  I would like to start with this comment you made: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2011,13:04) According to this Mike, if you look at the “grammatical” use of “theos” by John in every place outside of John 1:1 and John 1:18 where the singular form of the word is used it is always referring to the “One True God”. That means that 250 times out of 252 times John uses the word in the singular form he is referring to the “One True God”. That should tell you something. You said “According to this………”.  What I want to know is if you agree with the source you were paraphrasing.  Keith, do you agree with the findings of the source you paraphrased above?

Yes how about you? If you do then how is it that you see a reason to make John 1:1c indefinite?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2011,12:04) Here is my one question… Was John the Beloved a Polytheist who believed in other gods? Yes or no! Keith, as often happens for me in scriptural discussions, I have been lead directly to the answer through a post Kar made in the “god the angel” thread. “-Monotheism is related to henotheism (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) and monolatrism (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity). -“ (wikipedia on Monotheism)

Man you are desperate. You realize wiki is an open source for anyone to put their own definitions don’t you?

Your source begins with…

Monotheism (from Greek μόνος, monos, “single”, and θεός, theos, “god”) IS THE BELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF ONE GOD,[1] AS DISTINGUISHED FROM POLYTHEISM, THE BELIEF IN MORE THAN ONE GOD,…

Monotheism

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

Only Trinitarians and Kathy support the WORSHIP of more than one god, which would be “polytheism”.  What the scriptures clearly teach is more like the above definitions of either “henotheism” or “monolatrism”.

Why are you always reinventing words and definitions to fit your own theories?

This is what Polytheism means….

Macmillan Dictionary
THE BELIEF that there is MORE THAN ONE GOD

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
The worship of OR BELIEF in more than one god

Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary
BELIEF IN or worship of MORE THAN ONE GOD

Wordnik
1.The worship of OR BELIEF in more than one god.

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
BELIEF IN MANY DIFFERENT GODS

Wiktionary
1.THE BELIEF OF THE EXISTENCE OF MANY GODS.

Collins Pocket English Dictionary
BELIEF IN MORE THAN ONE GOD,

Encarta® World English Dictionary
the worship of OR BELIEF IN MORE THAN ONE DEITY, especially several deities

Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed
BELIEF IN or worship of many gods, or MORE THAN ONE GOD

There are more if you need them but this should be enough to show you that not only is Polytheism the worship of other gods but also “THE BELIEF THAT MORE THAN ONE GOD EXIST. So who is not accepting the definition of the word Polytheism?

There is “Only One True God” in the scripture PERIOD!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

And to prove this you need only reflect on five things for now: 1.  Did Paul clearly and without mincing words say that there are MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth?

NO, Paul says there are many that are “CALLED” gods…For though there be that are **CALLED gods**,… 1 Cor 8:5

Paul clarifies just before that statement…

…and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.

You need to stop reading inference and your own personal opinions into the scriptures!

Did Paul say there is “NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE” or not?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

2.  Was Satan called a god?

Y, because he can appear as an angel of light or a false god, and by usurping power over  E unbelievers he has become a false “god of this world” but not of  believers S who believe in and trust in the ONLY One True God. I have incoded my answers in the sentences so you can't quote me out of context.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

3. Did John not record Jesus' own words that his God had spoken through the Holy Spirit years before about other gods?  (John 10:35)

Y, Jesus quoted the “Psalmist words”  E who was being derogatory about the wicked and fallen judges who die like men. S

His statement that they shall die like men is proof they were not gods but merely men!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

4.  Is Jehovah the God OF gods?

If you mean Jehovah is the god of idols or false gods, No! But Jesus is over all in heaven and earth and like the Father he is not the god of the dead but of the living, and false gods and idols are not part of the living but are part of the dead, remember “YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

5. Does Jehovah preside in the assembly of gods and render judgement among those gods?

Jehovah resides in the assembly of judges, rulers, kings or priest. Do you interpret this to mean that Jehovah resides in the assembly of idols or false gods? Context Mike.

I am the LORD, and there is **NO OTHER**; THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, Isa 45:5

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

These are not questions you are requested to answer, only scriptural facts that you cannot deny.  And each of these 5 scriptural truths show that the Bible does not teach only one literal god to the exclusion of any other gods at all.

You lose Mike when you say “Only One True God” is not literal!!!

Do you find any of the followers of YHWH anywhere saying “There is Only One True God but that is not LITERAL, because we really do not mean that. We mean that there is “Only One True God” in a fantasy type of way because there are other “true gods”?  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33)

So “YES”, John “believed in” other gods, for he believed in the existence of Satan, for example.  But “NO”, this belief did not then, nor does it now, make John or anyone else a “polytheist”.

Look at the definitions Mike and stop inventing your own definitions and forcing the scriptures into your theology!

And how about answering some of my questions instead of creating all these threads that cause confusion. Confusion is not of God but is of satan. And your theology that Jesus is “a god” like all other gods, but is not the “Only One True God” which does not literally mean “Only One True God” has everyone’s head spinning with confusion.

Did Paul say there is “NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE” or not?

Are you going to tell us Paul doesn't l
iterally mean “there is “NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE?”

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Hi Keith,

I don't have time for this anymore.  I won't ask you a question here, but give you my understanding.  You can either agree with it or not.

I don't believe that the title “God OF gods” means that there can literally only be one god period.  And I don't think that it means Jehovah is the God of “false gods” and “idols” either.  I believe that the words “elohim” and “theos” were used of many, some of whom were vice regents and supported by the God OF gods Himself.  I don't believe that when God presides in the assembly of gods, He is presiding over a bunch of “false gods” and “idols”.

I believe the whole “polytheist” accusation is a lame attempt by Trinitarians to be able to claim that since there is literally only ONE God, then Jesus MUST be Him.  It is very lame indeed for anyone who's actually read the Bible, which speaks of many gods.  Paul says these exact words:  “There are many gods, in heaven and on earth”, yet no one is calling Paul a “polytheist”.  Instead, they concoct an unsupported claim that he must be speaking of “false gods” and “idols”.  He is not.  He is stating it the way it is:  “There are many powerful rulers, (that we in ancient Greek call 'theos'), both in heaven and on the earth, but for us, the only theos we need concern ourselves with is the Theos OF theos, Jehovah.”

Jehovah is the God OF all other gods, and Jesus is but ONE of those gods that Jehovah is the God OF.

The NETNotes info that you clearly said you agreed with on page 56 says that the Word cannot be equated with THE PERSON OF GOD, because of 1:1b.  “THE PERSON” of God?  I thought God was THREE PERSONS.    Anyway, they have spoken the truth, and you have agreed with that truth, that the Word is not THE GOD he was WITH, and therefore must be another.  And that only leaves two SCRIPTURALLY SUPPORTED options:

1.  He was a DIFFERENT god who was WITH “THE GOD”.
2.  He was being called “mighty”, as the word “elohim” was often translated in the OT.

I disagree with t8 that the theos in 1:1c is a “qualifying” statement, as if “god” is some “species” or something.  But even if it was, it would say absolutely NOTHING to the effect that the Word was “everything THE God was”.  After all, this particular theos was obviously not “THE Theos” he was WITH, and there is no way anyone could understand the few words in John 1:1 to mean that the Word was “everything THE God he was with was”.

I think it is absolutely immoral for translators to leave the definite article out of 1:1b and cap the “G” in 1:1c, giving their desired impression that the theos of 1:1c IS the theos of 1:1b, when those same scholars all admit this is NOT the case.  It is a form of brainwashing to force their own “truth” that they know cannot be derived from reading the actual Greek.  They have so little faith that the scriptures actually teach their “truth”, that they have to “doctor” God's Book.  The NETNotes scholars even admit this immoral action.  They will all have THE God to answer to for what they've done.

I'm done discussing it for now, Keith.  I've grown weary of you and your word games.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 05 2011,11:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) Only Trinitarians and Kathy support the WORSHIP of more than one god, which would be “polytheism”.  What the scriptures clearly teach is more like the above definitions of either “henotheism” or “monolatrism”. Why are you always reinventing words and definitions to fit your own theories? This is what Polytheism means…. Macmillan Dictionary THE BELIEF that there is MORE THAN ONE GOD American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language The worship of OR BELIEF in more than one god Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary BELIEF IN or worship of MORE THAN ONE GOD Wordnik 1.The worship of OR BELIEF in more than one god. Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary BELIEF IN MANY DIFFERENT GODS Wiktionary 1.THE BELIEF OF THE EXISTENCE OF MANY GODS. Collins Pocket English Dictionary BELIEF IN MORE THAN ONE GOD, Encarta® World English Dictionary the worship of OR BELIEF IN MORE THAN ONE DEITY, especially several deities Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed BELIEF IN or worship of many gods, or MORE THAN ONE GOD There are more if you need them but this should be enough to show you that not only is Polytheism the worship of other gods but also “THE BELIEF THAT MORE THAN ONE GOD EXIST. So who is not accepting the definition of the word Polytheism? There is “Only One True God” in the scripture PERIOD! Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) And to prove this you need only reflect on five things for now: 1.  Did Paul clearly and without mincing words say that there are MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth? NO, Paul says there are many that are “CALLED” gods…For though there be that are **CALLED gods**,… 1 Cor 8:5 Paul clarifies just before that statement… …and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE. You need to stop reading inference and your own personal opinions into the scriptures! Did Paul say there is “NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE” or not? Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) 2.  Was Satan called a god? Y, because he can appear as an angel of light or a false god, and by usurping power over  E unbelievers he has become a false “god of this world” but not of  believers S who believe in and trust in the ONLY One True God. I have incoded my answers in the sentences so you can't quote me out of context. Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) 3. Did John not record Jesus' own words that his God had spoken through the Holy Spirit years before about other gods?  (John 10:35) Y, Jesus quoted the “Psalmist words”  E who was being derogatory about the wicked and fallen judges who die like men. S His statement that they shall die like men is proof they were not gods but merely men! Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) 4.  Is Jehovah the God OF gods? If you mean Jehovah is the god of idols or false gods, No! But Jesus is over all in heaven and earth and like the Father he is not the god of the dead but of the living, and false gods and idols are not part of the living but are part of the dead, remember “YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN”. Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) 5. Does Jehovah preside in the assembly of gods and render judgement among those gods? Jehovah resides in the assembly of judges, rulers, kings or priest. Do you interpret this to mean that Jehovah resides in the assembly of idols or false gods? Context Mike. I am the LORD, and there is **NO OTHER**; THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, Isa 45:5 Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) These are not questions you are requested to answer, only scriptural facts that you cannot deny.  And each of these 5 scriptural truths show that the Bible does not teach only one literal god to the exclusion of any other gods at all. You lose Mike when you say “Only One True God” is not literal!!! Do you find any of the followers of YHWH anywhere saying “There is Only One True God but that is not LITERAL, because we really do not mean that. We mean that there is “Only One True God” in a fantasy type of way because there are other “true gods”?   Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,20:33) So “YES”, John “believed in” other gods, for he believed in the existence of Satan, for example.  But “NO”, this belief did not then, nor does it now, make John or anyone else a “polytheist”. Look at the definitions Mike and stop inventing your own definitions and forcing the scriptures into your theology! And how about answering some of my questions instead of creating all these threads that cause confusion. Confusion is not of God but is of satan. And your theology that Jesus is “a god” like all other gods, but is not the “Only One True God” which does not literally mean “Only One True God” has everyone’s head spinning with confusion. Did Paul say there is “NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE” or not? Are you going to tell us Paul doesn't literally mean “there is “NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE?” WJ

WJ

so finally you start to believe that there is only one true God and that all others are just not gods but try to be gods with very limited powers if any.

so the trinity is finish in your believe,good man.

Pierre

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