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Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,08:14) Hi Irene,
I was wondering if you believe in the deity of Christ.Blessings,
Kathi
Kathy! No, Jesus is divine meaning He has immortality, never to die again, but He is not deity….Peace Irene
Irene,
Thanks for your answer. So then you do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. So Jesus became divine meaning He wasn't always divine but is after He was resurrected, is that what you are saying?Blessings to you,
KathiKeith! I did answer your question. Jesus is not God how you want Him to be. He is not equal to Almighty God, that is why I gave you those two Scriptures. God is a title, again in Ancient times many are called Gods.
Psa 82:1 ¶ [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.Psa 86:8 Among the gods [there is] none like unto thee, O LORD; neither [are there any works] like unto thy works.
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.God is a title, not His name, I think I told you before that in our Rye Study Bible in the footnotes the Translators uses LORD in all capital letters for Jehovah God, and Lord in s,all letters for Jesus.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,10:45) Irene,
Thanks for your answer. So then you do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. So Jesus became divine meaning He wasn't always divine but is after He was resurrected, is that what you are saying?Blessings to you,
Kathi
Kathy! If Jesus would have immortality, He would not been able to die for us. Jehovah God gave Him immortality after He ascended to Heaven, and now is seated at the right hand of Almighty God.Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
We know when it says “he has given life to the Son, it does not just mean,, just born, but immortality just like Jehovah God is…..
Peace Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,11:08) Irene,
Did you know that the Romans did not kill the soul of Jesus, only the body?
Kathi! Only God can kill the Spirit, and one day He will kill all those Spirit Demons and Satan….You know I know that the Spirit goes back to God who gave it…. Jesus Spirit was no different. The Angels too are Spirit Beings, and some sinned and will be destroyed one day. Spirit Beings do not have immortality, only Jehovah God and Jesus now have……to have eternal life does not mean to be immortal…..
Peace IreneKathi,
Was the spirit of ANY MAN WHO EVER DIED killed? How about their souls?
Face it girl, Jesus died the same death any other human dies. If his death wasn't exactly like our deaths, then what hope would we have for being raised to life from a “real” death since Jesus was raised to life from only a “sort of” death?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2011,12:04) but lets just say it is a “possibility” that it could be though the scholars have opinions as to why it should or shouldn't be.
Thank you Keith.That's all I've wanted from the beginning. Now that we can agree that “a god” is at least a possible translation, we can each make our arguments for which rendering best fits in with the rest of the scriptures. I would like to start with this comment you made:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2011,13:04) According to this Mike, if you look at the “grammatical” use of “theos” by John in every place outside of John 1:1 and John 1:18 where the singular form of the word is used it is always referring to the “One True God”. That means that 250 times out of 252 times John uses the word in the singular form he is referring to the “One True God”. That should tell you something.
You said “According to this………”. What I want to know is if you agree with the source you were paraphrasing. Keith, do you agree with the findings of the source you paraphrased above?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2011,12:04) Here is my one question… Was John the Beloved a Polytheist who believed in other gods? Yes or no!
Keith, as often happens for me in scriptural discussions, I have been lead directly to the answer through a post Kar made in the “god the angel” thread.“-Monotheism is related to henotheism (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) and monolatrism (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity). -“
(wikipedia on Monotheism)
Only Trinitarians and Kathy support the WORSHIP of more than one god, which would be “polytheism”. What the scriptures clearly teach is more like the above definitions of either “henotheism” or “monolatrism”.
And to prove this you need only reflect on five things for now:
1. Did Paul clearly and without mincing words say that there are MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth?
2. Was Satan called a god?
3. Did John not record Jesus' own words that his God had spoken through the Holy Spirit years before about other gods? (John 10:35)
4. Is Jehovah the God OF gods?
5. Does Jehovah preside in the assembly of gods and render judgement among those gods?
These are not questions you are requested to answer, only scriptural facts that you cannot deny. And each of these 5 scriptural truths show that the Bible does not teach only one literal god to the exclusion of any other gods at all.
So to answer your question, John did not promote the WORSHIP of more than one god, which would be “polytheism”. But John surely knew of the EXISTENCE of more than one being who was called by the title of “theos” or “elohim”…………..for John knew the scriptures and the words of Jesus. So “YES”, John “believed in” other gods, for he believed in the existence of Satan. But “NO”, this belief did not then, nor does it now, make John or anyone else a “polytheist”.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,11:30) Irene,
So was the spirit of Jesus ever killed?Kathi
Kathy! Why are you asking all these questions, is there a point to this? Jesus couldn't have died if He would have been a deity like His father is…..NO is the answer…..and neither will ours be killed, unless you are not good, and follow Satan….Joking….
IreneIrene,
Yes there is a point to this. The deity of Christ did not die, only the flesh of Christ died…the deity of Christ continued on.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,13:38) Irene,
Yes there is a point to this. The deity of Christ did not die, only the flesh of Christ died…the deity of Christ continued on.Kathi
Kathy! Were is your prove?Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
If Jesus always was deity, then why did His Father have to give it to Jesus. Your logic makes no sense….
Peace IreneIrene,
Jesus's death and man's death is in regards to the body and not the soul, you have agreed to that already. Man can only kill the body of flesh, not the soul. Jesus's flesh body died but not the spiritual part of Jesus and the spiritual part of man does not die with the body either. Jesus's flesh body was not part of who He was while He pre-existed. The part of who He was while He pre-existed, the deity part, did not die but the new part, the flesh did and that is what was given eternal life from the Father. His body was raised from a dead body to an imperishable body all glorified and such. The deity of Christ did not die.“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Now, I am not saying that all men's souls/spirits are deity, only Christ's. Men's souls do not pre-exist their bodies.
Kathi
Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,18:48) Keith! I did answer your question. Jesus is not God how you want Him to be. He is not equal to Almighty God, that is why I gave you those two Scriptures. God is a title, again in Ancient times many are called Gods.
IreneI am sorry but I don't see an answer.
If God is a title and a name and Jesus has that title and name meaning he is god, and Jesus is your Savour and Lord then is he your god?
It is real simple.
You say he is “a god” but is he your god? Yes or No?
Thomas didn't have a problem calling Jesus his “Lord and God” right?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,23:52) Irene,
Jesus's death and man's death is in regards to the body and not the soul, you have agreed to that already. Man can only kill the body of flesh, not the soul. Jesus's flesh body died but not the spiritual part of Jesus and the spiritual part of man does not die with the body either. Jesus's flesh body was not part of who He was while He pre-existed. The part of who He was while He pre-existed, the deity part, did not die but the new part, the flesh did and that is what was given eternal life from the Father. His body was raised from a dead body to an imperishable body all glorified and such. The deity of Christ did not die.“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Now, I am not saying that all men's souls/spirits are deity, only Christ's. Men's souls do not pre-exist their bodies.
Kathi
Kathy! The way Georg explained it to me is. Both Jesus as a man died, His Spirit went back to God, but Jesus never was deity before. He was like the Angels. All Son's of God. I am not going as far to say that Jesus was one of the Angels. Jehovah God sent Him to earth to die for us. After His resurrection, Jehovah God awarded Him with deity or immortality, never to die again. If Jesus would have had immortality or if He was deity, He could not have died for us. Will we have immortality? Truthfully I don't know. I think that the elect and all those who died for Christ in the first three centuries, they that were persecuted thrown to Lions etc. IMO will. The meek will inherit the earth….
OPeace IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,01:43) Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,18:48) Keith! I did answer your question. Jesus is not God how you want Him to be. He is not equal to Almighty God, that is why I gave you those two Scriptures. God is a title, again in Ancient times many are called Gods.
IreneI am sorry but I don't see an answer.
If God is a title and a name and Jesus has that title and name meaning he is god, and Jesus is your Savour and Lord then is he your god?
It is real simple.
You say he is “a god” but is he your god? Yes or No?
Thomas didn't have a problem calling Jesus his “Lord and God” right?
WJ
Keith! Don't you see a difference in LORD, and Lord? Jehovah God is LORD, and Jesus is Lord. I honor Jesus who died for us. I worship Almighty God, LORD Jehovah….Since God is a title No I don't worship Him as my LORD Jehovah God….. Is that what you want me to say?
I don't believe in a trinity, I thought you knew that….. And I proved it to you with Scriptures, which you don't want to believe. That of course is your purgative….
Peace IreneQuote (Baker @ April 27 2011,10:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,01:43) Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,18:48) Keith! I did answer your question. Jesus is not God how you want Him to be. He is not equal to Almighty God, that is why I gave you those two Scriptures. God is a title, again in Ancient times many are called Gods.
IreneI am sorry but I don't see an answer.
If God is a title and a name and Jesus has that title and name meaning he is god, and Jesus is your Savour and Lord then is he your god?
It is real simple.
You say he is “a god” but is he your god? Yes or No?
Thomas didn't have a problem calling Jesus his “Lord and God” right?
WJ
Keith! Don't you see a difference in LORD, and Lord? Jehovah God is LORD, and Jesus is Lord.
Hi IreneNo! In the original languages there were no caps, the caps were added by the translators for emphasis but for us their is only one “LORD, Lord, or lord”. Who is it in this verse that is the “LORD”?
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev 19:16
Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,10:25) I honor Jesus who died for us.
Do you honor Jesus as you would honor the Father?Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,10:25) I worship Almighty God, LORD Jehovah….Since God is a title No I don't worship Him as my LORD Jehovah God….. Is that what you want me to say?
I just want you to answer the question “If you believe Jesus is “a god” and he is your “LORD” then is he also your god since you say he is “a god”?Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,10:25) I don't believe in a trinity, I thought you knew that….. And I proved it to you with Scriptures, which you don't want to believe. That of course is your purgative….
No kidding! I have shown you scriptures that Jesus is God as the Father is in nature yet you cannot say Jesus is your god though you say he is “a god”. That looks suspicious to me Irene.If you are so right then why can't you say Jesus is your god or not, (Thomas did) and if he is not your god then why do you claim he is “a god”?
If you believe there are other gods but ONE then according to the definition of Polytheism that makes you a Polytheist.
WJ
Here we go round the Mulberry Bush – again!
The word and term 'God' is not a NAME… there is no one with the NAME 'God'.
'God' is a reference to A PERSON who is the SUPREME in their CLASS.
'King' is similar … There can be many Kings and even ONE PERSON 'who is so supreme a king that he virtually Owns the title AS A Name'
Boxing: Mohammed Ali was KING.
Golf: Tiger Woods was KING.
Football: Pele was KING.They were KINGS of their CLASS of Sport.
Mention any of those sports and say who is King: easy answer….
But these are human analogies… Humans die or fade…God, many are called God for their supremacy in their class:
Moses was called God of Aaron
Satan is called God of this system of things
Baal is God to the philistines so was Dagon
The Greeks, Indians, Norwegians, …all have their own Supreme polyeithist Gods
Many who did the works of God were supreme out of all those in their time…But there is only ONE who is Supreme over the whole class of Supremes : There is only one called GOD ALMIGHTY – almighty God – the One True Almighty God – the God over All who are called Gods, and he gave his NAME: 'I AM' (YHVH), Jehovah.
In the beginning [the one ] God did not need a NAME because mankind only knew this one God.
When mankind started creating and believing on many Gods it was then necessary to distinguish the ONE TRUE GOD from all the other (so-called) Gods so God THE ONE AND ONLY gave himself a unique NAME… however, because of abuse of that name the very abusers stopped using the NAME. Of the one and only true God and though it was written it was never again spoken.
Later, to save people MISPRONOUNCING HIS NAME …. scripture writers wrote word 'LORD' in all capital letters to signify the NAME 'YHVH'…Therefore Scripturally we should read 'LORD' as Gods NAME…and not confuse it with 'Lord' or 'lord'
So again, GOD is NOT A NAME…. it is a TITLE…
In the position of speaking of THE ONE TRUE GOD as opposed to any other class of Gods it is then ok to only say GOD – AS IF IT WERE A NAME…
In terms of football we could have said 'Pele', or we could have just said 'The King'!
Anyone who cannot see the point is only unable to not see it due to having an agenda.
Try this: replace all instances of the title: 'GOD' with the name of the 'God' in question?
Does that clear things up? It certainly would?
Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,09:18) Both Jesus as a man died, His Spirit went back to God, but Jesus never was deity before. He was like the Angels. All Son's of God. I am not going as far to say that Jesus was one of the Angels. Jehovah God sent Him to earth to die for us. After His resurrection, Jehovah God awarded Him with deity or immortality, never to die again. If Jesus would have had immortality or if He was deity, He could not have died for us. Will we have immortality? Truthfully I don't know. I think that the elect and all those who died for Christ in the first three centuries, they that were persecuted thrown to Lions etc. IMO will. The meek will inherit the earth….
OPeace Irene
Good stuff Irene.
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