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Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,21:30) I do not see the point of you wanting scriptural support for someone's god not being mightier than they are.
You don't have to see my point to address the issue. That sounds like “stalling”.
But here is the point anyway: Nobody would ever recognize another as their god without also automatically recognizing that one was mightier than them. What do people do to gods, Kathi?
They REVERE them. Why, because they are equals?
They FEAR them. Why?
They OBEY them. Why?
They PRAY TO them. Why would one PRAY TO their god? If their god was not mightier than them, then their god could offer nothing above what they could achieve for themselves. In which case, why pray?
They WORSHIP them. What does that mean? They bow to pay homage to one who has control over their very lives. They offer sacrifices to appease the one who is mighty enough to smite them or reward them with good things.
They ENTREAT them. They ASK their gods for things they themselves cannot aquire, and to do things that they cannot do themselves.
By Jesus calling Jehovah “my God”, he is acknowledging that Jehovah is mightier than he is. If He wasn't, Jesus wouldn't call him “my God”, but by a title that would imply equality. Calling someone else “my God” NEVER implies that you think you are equal TO that one.
If I'm wrong, then show me scripturally. And if you can't, then just say so. Then we can move forward to one of my other 14 points.
mike
Dennison,
So in your understanding, Jesus is not the begotten God but an earthy vessel to contain the Father?I still believe that frequently when God referred to having an outstretched arm, He was referring to His only begotten Son who serves Him.
1. God is more of a species, a self-existent eternal species. Maybe race is not the right word.
2. Jesus is fully man and fully God. God the Father is not also fully man, He is just fully God.
3. God was always the Father. He was always self-sufficient to create and save and reveal Himself by having within Him His Son and Spirit…always having within Him His Son and then begetting Him to minister through the act of creation and to reveal the Father, then to take on flesh, live perfectly, and die…etc.Good discussion!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,09:53)
Kathi,
Actually I didnt say that.I agree with what is stated in this Thread:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3666I also believe that Jesus is refferred to as the outstretched arm thingy.
1. Species? Define that.
2. Are you stating that its impossible for the Almighty God to do anything physical? or demonstrate himself physically?
3. But he wasnt revealed as the Father until the New Testament through Jesus Christ, so therefore Christ wasnt presented as the Son until the New testament as well, so therefore what “are” they before hand?
4. If Jesus is the Son of Man, than what Man is his Father?
Adam???Mike,
Quote Nobody would ever recognize another as their god without also automatically recognizing that one was mightier than them. What do people do to gods, Kathi? That is true in the case of creation towards their creator. Their creator is obviously mightier than they. We are not talking about a created being relating to a self-existent being here though, imo. We are talking about the supreme Father deity and the supreme Son deity. Naturally the Father would be considered greater if nothing more, than Him being the Begetter.
Really the question is, did the only begotten God consider His God mightier than He was before He emptied Himself and became man or did He just recognize Him as greater than Him as Father of Him. Greater and mightier are two different ideas. Also, 'how' was the Father greater? I think that it is entirely possible for the Father to be greater simply because He was the Begetter. I think divine nature implies being almighty…almighty Son, almighty Father.
When you speak of the Christ, well the dynamics change because Christ was a man made lower than the angels who contained diety in the manner of the Son of God from ancient times. Because of that, according to the flesh, His Father was mightier than He was because He voluntarily limited His might. It wasn't because He was less mighty but because He limited Himself to become man.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,10:16) Really the question is, did the only begotten God consider His God mightier than He was before He emptied Himself and became man or did He just recognize Him as greater than Him as Father of Him. Greater and mightier are two different ideas.
Kathi,That is an excellent point and i am going to steal that from you!!
Just letting you know, I am like a theif in the night.
(obviously not a very good one.)Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,23:16) Really the question is, did the only begotten God consider His God mightier than He was before He emptied Himself and became man
No, that's not the question. I asked the question I want answered. Here it is put another way:Kathi, is there scriptural evidence to imply that anyone ever considered someone as their god, but did NOT consider that god to be mightier than they were?
mike
Dennison,
Quote I also believe that Jesus is refferred to as the outstretched arm thingy. Great!
Quote 1. Species? Define that.
Well, a species is a type of kind. Like a human species…eneryone is human in the human species. A canine species, all animals in the canine species are canine. In the deity species…all are deity in the deity species. Get it?Quote 2. Are you stating that its impossible for the Almighty God to do anything physical? or demonstrate himself physically? I think that God the Father is all powerful and can demonstrate Himself physically.
Quote 3. But he wasnt revealed as the Father until the New Testament through Jesus Christ, so therefore Christ wasnt presented as the Son until the New testament as well, so therefore what “are” they before hand? They were always Father and Son, that was just not revealed till the NT.
Quote 4. If Jesus is the Son of Man, than what Man is his Father?
Adam???
Mary was man as in mankind. She contributed to His flesh nature.Well, I can't keep my eyes open so…g'nite Dennison,son
Nice having a conversation with you!
KathiMike,
I don't know…I'll think about it.Dennison,
Have at itThanks for the fellowship guys.
See you later…sweet dreams!
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,10:40) Dennison, Quote I also believe that Jesus is refferred to as the outstretched arm thingy. Great!
Quote 1. Species? Define that.
Well, a species is a type of kind. Like a human species…eneryone is human in the human species. A canine species, all animals in the canine species are canine. In the deity species…all are deity in the deity species. Get it?Quote 2. Are you stating that its impossible for the Almighty God to do anything physical? or demonstrate himself physically? I think that God the Father is all powerful and can demonstrate Himself physically.
Quote 3. But he wasnt revealed as the Father until the New Testament through Jesus Christ, so therefore Christ wasnt presented as the Son until the New testament as well, so therefore what “are” they before hand? They were always Father and Son, that was just not revealed till the NT.
Quote 4. If Jesus is the Son of Man, than what Man is his Father?
Adam???
Mary was man as in mankind. She contributed to His flesh nature.Well, I can't keep my eyes open so…g'nite Dennison,son
Nice having a conversation with you!
Kathi
1. So are angels part of the Species? and wasnt adam created in the image of God, so therefore also the same species?2. So would you not consider that could be Jesus?
3. In what sense were they always Father and Son?
4. Of course we know that Mary contributed to his flesh nature, but the question is specfic. If we conclude that just because Jesus is called the son of God, than it means that God is his father, than who is the Father in regards when Jesus calls himself the Son of Man?
In other words, I believe he is referring to his nature and not his exact identity.Lol, Nice. You know in Japan its mandatory for strangers to call me “Dennison-son” out of respect.
lol.
nice haveing a convo with you too Lady,
Kathi,
I would also like to add this scripture so that you can consider it when you answer my questions:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 01 2011,16:55) Kathi,
I would also like to add this scripture so that you can consider it when you answer my questions:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Exactly!Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,21:21) I am not saying that once there was only the Father, I am saying that there was always a Father and a Son and their Holy Spirit. However the Son was within the Father and not alongside Him till He was begotten before the ages. For me there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ- the only begotten God, and their Spirit who is given to believer's as the Comforter.
Do you get this? If so, you are doing better than Keith.
KathiWhy do you have to patronize me? I know what you believe all I am doing is pointing out to you that your belief in 2 almighty Gods is not what most of the Forefathers believed.
WJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 01 2011,00:55) Kathi,
I would also like to add this scripture so that you can consider it when you answer my questions:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Hi Dennison,
You ask a familiar question but you actually might get it when you read the answer.You get that the Arm of the Lord is the Son, right…well God portrays Himself as the God with the outstretched Arm. He includes His Son together with Himself when He speaks of there being no other God. He doesn't speak of the Son in that context as separate and distinct but a part of Him. In the NT it is different…clearer.
Deut 4:34-39
34 “Or has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within another nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
36 “Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
37 “Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power,
38 driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today.
39 “Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
NASUDoes that help?
KathiQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,17:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,21:21) I am not saying that once there was only the Father, I am saying that there was always a Father and a Son and their Holy Spirit. However the Son was within the Father and not alongside Him till He was begotten before the ages. For me there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ- the only begotten God, and their Spirit who is given to believer's as the Comforter.
Do you get this? If so, you are doing better than Keith.
KathiWhy do you have to patronize me? I know what you believe all I am doing is pointing out to you that your belief in 2 almighty Gods is not what most of the Forefathers believed.
WJ
Keith,
You are in denial…I have had to tell you the same thing over and over.So which one is not almighty God, Keith, the Father or the Son.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2011,05:34) Hi Dennison,
You ask a familiar question but you actually might get it when you read the answer.You get that the Arm of the Lord is the Son, right…well God portrays Himself as the God with the outstretched Arm. He includes His Son together with Himself when He speaks of there being no other God. He doesn't speak of the Son in that context as separate and distinct but a part of Him. In the NT it is different…clearer.
Deut 4:34-39
34 “Or has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within another nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
36 “Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
37 “Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power,
38 driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today.
39 “Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
NASUDoes that help?
Kathi
Hi Kathi,Oh I believe that but thats not what you stated earlier.
You stated that they are of the same species, but different beings who are in agreement with one another.
So what you just said kindof contradicts the rest.
In other words, the verse provides a distinct truth that No other God, nor same species could or would ever exist.There is no equal to God, nor will there ever be.
I agree that God includes the Son because I believe they are one and the same, but if you view them to be Distinct individuals who are in agreement within the same species than its quite confusing of how you are going to deal with the scripture before you.
I also understand that you believe that Jesus and the Father work as one mind of God, but than again (according to your doctrine) they are individauls who are in agreement, so therefore though they are cooperative, they are still defined as seperate individuals to operate one identity.
So therefore they are a simply a “they” and not one entity.So I think i need further clarification on that, because perhaps I misunderstood what your trying to say.
Understanding God's Outstreched Arm
16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.Kathi, (Assuming that you believe that Jesus and God to be individauls and members of the same species who operate on one accord) I dont believe we understand the outstreched arm in the same way.
In other words i would view it has it was said exactly. When in arm is outstretched, it is reaching for something. So you stretch you arms out to reach!
In other words, its like almighty God who is hovering over earth, who decides to reach with his arm to particpate in this world, and to do his will, as he wishes too.His own arm brought salvation, i dont find this to be a different individual IMO.
so maybe more clarity of your views is needed.
(by the way, i asked you several questions before this post, and you didnt asnwer it.)
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 01 2011,00:47) Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,10:40) Dennison, Quote I also believe that Jesus is refferred to as the outstretched arm thingy. Great!
Quote 1. Species? Define that.
Well, a species is a type of kind. Like a human species…eneryone is human in the human species. A canine species, all animals in the canine species are canine. In the deity species…all are deity in the deity species. Get it?Quote 2. Are you stating that its impossible for the Almighty God to do anything physical? or demonstrate himself physically? I think that God the Father is all powerful and can demonstrate Himself physically.
Quote 3. But he wasnt revealed as the Father until the New Testament through Jesus Christ, so therefore Christ wasnt presented as the Son until the New testament as well, so therefore what “are” they before hand? They were always Father and Son, that was just not revealed till the NT.
Quote 4. If Jesus is the Son of Man, than what Man is his Father?
Adam???
Mary was man as in mankind. She contributed to His flesh nature.Well, I can't keep my eyes open so…g'nite Dennison,son
Nice having a conversation with you!
Kathi
1. So are angels part of the Species? and wasnt adam created in the image of God, so therefore also the same species?2. So would you not consider that could be Jesus?
3. In what sense were they always Father and Son?
4. Of course we know that Mary contributed to his flesh nature, but the question is specfic. If we conclude that just because Jesus is called the son of God, than it means that God is his father, than who is the Father in regards when Jesus calls himself the Son of Man?
In other words, I believe he is referring to his nature and not his exact identity.Lol, Nice. You know in Japan its mandatory for strangers to call me “Dennison-son” out of respect.
lol.
nice haveing a convo with you too Lady,
Thanks for reminding me Dennison-sonQuote 1. So are angels part of the Species? and wasnt adam created in the image of God, so therefore also the same species? No, definitely not, the angels are not part of the species. Adam was created in His image but did not have the exact representation of His nature…that was only the only begotten Son of God.
Quote 2. So would you not consider that could be Jesus? John 1:1 tells us one was with the other in the beginning.
Quote 3. In what sense were they always Father and Son? The Father contained the Son within Him from eternity, the Son was the image of the Father and not the Father, the Son was the exact representation of the nature of the Father, the Son was begotten from the Father before the ages. He who was within was begotten (came out).
Quote 4. Of course we know that Mary contributed to his flesh nature, but the question is specfic. If we conclude that just because Jesus is called the son of God, than it means that God is his father, than who is the Father in regards when Jesus calls himself the Son of Man?
In other words, I believe he is referring to his nature and not his exact identity.God is His Father in both the Son of God before the ages and Son of Man born from Mary. He was fathered by God as the Son before the ages because the Father contained Him within Him as explained above and that which was within Him was like Him. He was fathered by God as the Son of Man because He was supernaturally conceived by the Holy Spirit. His human nature came from Mary, His divine nature always existed within the one that beget Him.
There are your answers to that list
On to the next list…Kathi
Ok Dennison-son, just for you…
You said:Quote Oh I believe that but thats not what you stated earlier.
You stated that they are of the same species, but different beings who are in agreement with one another.
So what you just said kindof contradicts the rest.
In other words, the verse provides a distinct truth that No other God, nor same species could or would ever exist.There is no equal to God, nor will there ever be.
I agree that God includes the Son because I believe they are one and the same, but if you view them to be Distinct individuals who are in agreement within the same species than its quite confusing of how you are going to deal with the scripture before you.
I also understand that you believe that Jesus and the Father work as one mind of God, but than again (according to your doctrine) they are individauls who are in agreement, so therefore though they are cooperative, they are still defined as seperate individuals to operate one identity.
So therefore they are a simply a “they” and not one entity.So I think i need further clarification on that, because perhaps I misunderstood what your trying to say.
Understanding God's Outstreched Arm
16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.Kathi, (Assuming that you believe that Jesus and God to be individauls and members of the same species who operate on one accord) I dont believe we understand the outstreched arm in the same way.
In other words i would view it has it was said exactly. When in arm is outstretched, it is reaching for something. So you stretch you arms out to reach!
In other words, its like almighty God who is hovering over earth, who decides to reach with his arm to particpate in this world, and to do his will, as he wishes too.His own arm brought salvation, i dont find this to be a different individual IMO.
so maybe more clarity of your views is needed.
God was revealed little by little. There is a fuller understanding of who He is when Jesus walked the earth and then after He was resurrected, and more after the Comforter was given, and there will be more given after that. Do you agree with that? So, why explain the fuller knowledge with the lessor knowledge? Doesn't it make more sense to explain the God of the OT with the NT?
The NT tells us that the word was with God and that He was God (that implies two),
the NT tells us that the begotten God saw God who no one else has seen (wouldn't that be impossible for one to see the another if the other is the one doing the seeing),
the NT tells us that the Son will sit on the throne with His Father (with shows more than one),
the NT tells us that no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and who the Son wishes to explain Him to (that is two persons),
the NT tells us that they (plural) will dwell within us.So, you see there are some things you must overcome in the way you see the Father and Son too. You are using the OT to explain the NT when it should be the other way around. The further we go along, the more that has been revealed.
Think of a mystery novel…you explain the mystery by the end of the book, not the beginning.
Well, I think I am caught up…sigh
Another thought Dennison,
You are a son and one day, you may become a father also, and then much later you may become a grandfather too. When you are a grandfather and you go to live with your grandchildren, one person (you as the grandfather) will be living with them, not three persons of you. You will not show up at their doorstep and say that “we have come to live with you.” You might say that “I have come to live with you.” Do you see this? The Father and Son are not the same person…THEY come to live with us.Jesus said that:
John 14:23
Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.Bigger sigh…
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