Exposing freak greek

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,05:48)

Hello D-Linquent,

Solomon was the richest and wisest king in history. Were any of his children as rich and wise as him? Cyrus was the most powerful king of his time, taking down Nebuchadnezzar, who was called by Daniel the “King of kings”. Were any of Cyrus' children ever as powerful as he was?

The father ALWAYS starts off wiser and more powerful than his children. If God and Jesus don't suffer the human aging that eventually makes human sons more powerful than their fathers, then it would stand to reason that Jesus' God started off wiser and more powerful, and stayed that way.

But enough of our human reasoning. I have a new policy on HN………….SHOW ME SCRIPTURALLY, AND I'LL BELIEVE.

Show me scripturally that God Almighty has an equal, or that the begotten god is equally “almighty” as his own God who begot him. Then we can take your “beginning and end” scripture, and put it up against the 15 scriptural points I listed for Kathi, and see whose understanding best matches ALL of the scriptures, okay?

mike

Hello Viejo,

What do these humans have to do with God as a being?

A Father is declineing state and authority to build up in individual who he gave life too, so they too may grow up to be the SAME.

Than you have an error in your theology, because than it would mean that your God declines as Jesus surpasses him.

Again, this is all about defining terms and defining what these phrases mean.

I didnt understand your last question rephrase it.

April 1, 2011 at 1:16 am#241393

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,17:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,17:20)

You limit God.

No you limit God because you say he can reproduce himself meaning he can become greater than infinite.

An infinite God brings birth to an infinite God meaning we now have 2 infinite Gods making God doubly infinite.

Nah, I don't buy it Kathi and neither do the Forefathers who said it is anathema to “divide” the substance or to say there is 3 Gods or in your case 2 Gods.

Keith,
Did you divide your substance to have a kid? Are you less human than you were before you had a kid? C'mon!

I am not saying that once there was only the Father, I am saying that there was always a Father and a Son and their Holy Spirit. However the Son was within the Father and not alongside Him till He was begotten before the ages. Now, I think that I should just copy this and paste it back to you, since you regularly must need to hear it since you keep acting like I didn't tell you this.

For me there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten God, and their Spirit who is given to believer's as the Comforter.

So, until I feel like you get that, I will keep posting this to you to help you see that this is my understanding, not to be mean but to keep me from going in these circles with you. The sooner you show that you are understanding what I am writing to you, the sooner we can move on. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me.

Kathi
Kathi

April 1, 2011 at 1:43 am#241395

Participant

Hi Mike,
You asked:

Quote

#1 – So being the HEAD OF Christ doesn't imply that God is the mightier of the two?

Do you think that it is possible that He is the head of Christ because He is the Father?

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#3 – Being the GOD OF Christ doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Do you think that it is possible that when the Father of the begotten God would be also His God just because He is from Him?

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#4 – Jesus saying God is greater than him doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Do you think that it is possible that the Begetter would be greater than the Begotten just because He was the Begetter of the two?

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#5 – Jesus saying that God is greater than ALL doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Again, do you think that it is possible that the Begetter would be greater than the Begotten just because He was the Begetter of the two?

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#6 – The fact that God Almighty has no equal doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Is there any other Begetter like Him? Again, the Begetter would naturally not be equally the Begotten from Him. Although I do think that it is entirely possible that in some contexts the Father is speaking of Himself as one that contains the Son and their Spirit.

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#7 – The fact that Jesus worships God Almighty as his own God doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

The Christ was made lower than the angels, was He not? Therefore, even the angels are higher than Him during that time and the Father was much higher than them, as a man who was lower than the angels, of course He would worship and recognize the Father as His God and worship Him. After His resurrection do you see the Son worshiping the Father with the rest of the saints?

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#8 – The fact that One has the power to EXALT the other doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Doesn't it make sense that the Begetter would be the one to exalt the Begotten who had just been lower than the angels?

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#9 – The fact that God is Master to Jesus' Servant doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Not sure what scripture you are referring to so I can't speak about it without context.

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#10 – The fact that death held power over only one of them doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Only one of them became flesh, not both. It was the flesh that death had power over, not the divinity.

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#11 – The fact that God places Jesus' enemies at Jesus' feet doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Isn't that a nice thing for an almighty Father to do for an almighty Son?

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#12 – The fact that God will be “their God” while Jesus is “their Prince” doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Would the Son be the one above the Father? Think about it. One was the Begetter the other was the Begotten.

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#13 – The fact that Jesus rules in the Name and Strength of his God, and not in his own name and strength doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

Would the Begotten rule over His Begetter? Don't forget that the Father saves us in His Son's name and not His own.

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#15 – The fact that God is the ONLY One ever called “Almighty” doesn't imply that God is mightier of the two?

When God is called the Almighty might very well be the Son speaking as the Almighty begotten God. Also, the Almighty God, the Father does not be God to the people without His Son and Spirit. They act as one being and one mind, not that they each aren't their own being with their own mind but they act as if they are one…because they are perfect.

The only verses you need for this is John 1:1, John 1:18, and John 3:16, and Hebrews 1 and 2.

Bless you,
Kathi

April 1, 2011 at 1:54 am#241396

Blocked

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,19:04)

Than you have an error in your theology, because than it would mean that your God declines as Jesus surpasses him.

Not an “error”, but the exact point I am making. God cannot possibly “decline” as Jesus even “gains on Him”, let alone “surpasses Him”. If God started out stronger and smarter and more experienced than the Son He begot, He will stay that way forever. That's my point. Jesus will never even catch up with his God, let alone pass him by. Jesus says, “It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters.” So Jesus is LIKE his God, I get that. But to be LIKE God also means you are NOT God. Do YOU get that?

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,19:04)

I didnt understand your last question rephrase it.

Can you show me SCRIPTURALLY that God Almighty has an equal? Can you show me SCRIPTURALLY that the only begotten god is equally “almighty” as his own God who begot him?

mike

April 1, 2011 at 2:06 am#241397

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,06:54)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,19:04)

Than you have an error in your theology, because than it would mean that your God declines as Jesus surpasses him.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,19:04)

I didnt understand your last question rephrase it.

Can you show me SCRIPTURALLY that God Almighty has an equal? Can you show me SCRIPTURALLY that the only begotten god is equally “almighty” as his own God who begot him?

mike

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What you need to understand and get is that you often compare God and Jesus in human reasoning to Father and Son.

Yet you state yourself that human Father and Son have applications that happen during a human lifespan that God cannot be applied to.

So the conclusion would be it would be an Error to Define God and Jesus by a human application because it does not concern God.

Therefore its speculation and an err of an example.

I believe God and Jesus to be the same identity, he has no eqaul.

Again, I dont believe them to be seperate Entities, so your question cannot be applied to me.
I can ask you that question because you believe them to be seperate persons, but I dont so that wouldnt make any sense.

April 1, 2011 at 2:21 am#241398

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,18:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 30 2011,11:04)

“Lessor” is not at all clearly listed in John 1:18. Is your son lessor human than you because he was begotten. The Father is greater by the fact that He is the Father, not because He is mightier. He is also the Son's God because He is His Father and because He is God, not because He is mightier or wiser. The Son has everything the Father has including might.

Hi Kathi,
I liked your Explaintion here.

Though you and I are closer in belief in many ways, I have to ask though.

Do you believe that Jesus and God are seperate Identities, persons or One God?

Hi Dennison,
Thanks! I believe in two beings, one Father-the unbegotten God, and one Son-the begotten God, who together act as one God to creation, acting as one mind and one strength.

Like I wrote to Keith:

For me there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ- the only begotten God, and their Spirit who is given to believer's as the Comforter.

Do you get this? If so, you are doing better than Keith.

Blessings,
Kathi

April 1, 2011 at 2:32 am#241399

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,19:43)

After His resurrection do you see the Son worshiping the Father with the rest of the saints?

This is a great point you bring up. NO, I don't have any scripture implying that Jesus worships his God after he is exalted. And I should have a scripture, or at least scriptural information, to back up each and every thing I claim. AS SHOULD YOU and everyone else that wants to discuss SCRIPTURES, right?

So in lieu of an actual scripture, I will offer scriptural information:

EVERY servant of Jehovah mentioned in scripture worships Jehovah, for He is their God. Jesus is a servant of Jehovah, Jehovah is his God, and he is recorded as saying he worships Jehovah,(as in a continuing tense: “we worship what we know”). So why would we just assume that God's Holy Servant Jesus doesn't worship his God anymore? Do you have any scriptural basis to conclude that he does not?

The whole point of the above is to emphasize to you that our imaginations, without any scriptural support, amounts to zero. So from now on, let's all demand that the other shows scriptural support for their claims, okay? Now I will address only ONE of the 15 points, so we can get to the bottom of at least one point before moving on.

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,19:43)

Do you think that it is possible that when the Father of the begotten God would be also His God just because He is from Him?

Can you show me any scripture where the god OF someone is NOT mightier than the one he is the god OF? I will show you just one example proving the opposite:

Isaiah 44:17
From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
“Save me! You are my god!”

This scripture kills two birds with one stone. First, it supports my point that people WORSHIP their gods. And secondly, the “Save me” part implies that, in this person's mind, even a carved piece of tree is MIGHTIER than himself because IT IS HIS GOD.

Your turn to show me anyone in scripture who is said to have a god who is NOT mightier than themselves.

peace and love,
mike

April 1, 2011 at 2:39 am#241400

Blocked

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,20:06)

Again, I dont believe them to be seperate Entities, so your question cannot be applied to me.

Can you scripturally support this theory of yours? In fact, don't answer here………….I'll start a thread about it.

mike

April 1, 2011 at 2:40 am#241401

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,20:21)

Can you scripturally support this theory of yours?

mike

April 1, 2011 at 2:54 am#241403

Participant

Mike,
What you proved is that people worship something even though it can not save and doesn't have the nature of deity. The carver worships the carving is an example of foolishness. Just because someone makes something their god, doesn't make that thing mightier at all. It just makes the 'someone' a fool.

4:8 Gal
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

So that is all you proved, people that serve things that do not have God's nature, they do not really have the true God.
Kathi

April 1, 2011 at 2:58 am#241404

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,07:39)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,20:06)

Again, I dont believe them to be seperate Entities, so your question cannot be applied to me.

Can you scripturally support this theory of yours? In fact, don't answer here………….I'll start a thread about it.

mike

Lol i rather you prove that Jesus is an Angel.

April 1, 2011 at 3:04 am#241405

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,07:21)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,18:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 30 2011,11:04)

Hi Kathi,
I liked your Explaintion here.

Though you and I are closer in belief in many ways, I have to ask though.

Do you believe that Jesus and God are seperate Identities, persons or One God?

Hi Dennison,
Thanks! I believe in two beings, one Father-the unbegotten God, and one Son-the begotten God, who together act as one God to creation, acting as one mind and one strength.

Like I wrote to Keith:

For me there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ- the only begotten God, and their Spirit who is given to believer's as the Comforter.

Do you get this? If so, you are doing better than Keith.

Blessings,
Kathi

Hi Kathi,
I think your word choices makes it a bit difficult to understand.

Are you stating there are two beings that manifest themselves to creation as one God?

Its hard to understand you because i dont know nor does keith know exactly what do you define certain words.

For example the word “beings” im using in a sense to present an Individual.

So i would re-word and say that God manifests himself as one being through the father, son and holy spirit.
is that what your stating??

Like i stated before,
I understand your reasoning of Jesus being the begotten God from the Unbeggotten Father, in the same sense i Understand that the Unknowable God is made known through his Image who is his Son.

Im getting it, im just doubtful that i truely understand what your saying.

April 1, 2011 at 3:07 am#241406

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,20:54)

4:8 Gal
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

So that is all you proved, people that serve things that do not have God's nature, they do not really have the true God.
Kathi

What I proved is that someone's “god” is always at least thought to be mightier than they are.

I'll await your scriptural support for someone's god NOT being mightier than they are.

mike

April 1, 2011 at 3:09 am#241407

Blocked

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,20:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,07:39)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,20:06)

Again, I dont believe them to be seperate Entities, so your question cannot be applied to me.

Can you scripturally support this theory of yours? In fact, don't answer here………….I'll start a thread about it.

mike

Lol i rather you prove that Jesus is an Angel.

Too late…………..I posted the new thread. But I would happily accept your challenge also…………make a thread about it if you want.

mike

April 1, 2011 at 3:13 am#241409

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,08:09)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,20:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,07:39)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,20:06)

Again, I dont believe them to be seperate Entities, so your question cannot be applied to me.

Can you scripturally support this theory of yours? In fact, don't answer here………….I'll start a thread about it.

mike

Lol i rather you prove that Jesus is an Angel.

Too late…………..I posted the new thread. But I would happily accept your challenge also…………make a thread about it if you want.

mike

Hahahahahah
I already did

April 1, 2011 at 3:18 am#241410

Participant

Dennison,
You are a modalist, don't you think? This is the definition:

Modalism
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.

Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
from here: http://carm.org/modalism

To answer your question, I believe there are two beings of the same nature who act as one mind, they are in agreement in other words. Keep asking me questions till you get it, that's good.
Kathi

April 1, 2011 at 3:23 am#241412

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,08:18)

Dennison,
You are a modalist, don't you think? This is the definition:

To answer your question, I believe there are two beings of the same nature who act as one mind, they are in agreement in other words. Keep asking me questions till you get it, that's good.
Kathi

Kathi,

Not at all. I disagree with the whole thing.
I woudlnt ever define myself under a name or a set doctrine. FYI. =D

Anyways, So you believe in:
1.two SEPERATE INDIVIDAUL BEINGS Yes or no?
2.that have the same exact nature. Like a race? like the human race, that are all the same. So are these two beings have the same race??
3. They are co-existing as individauls working togethor or with the same identity?

April 1, 2011 at 3:30 am#241416

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2011,22:07)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,20:54)

4:8 Gal
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

So that is all you proved, people that serve things that do not have God's nature, they do not really have the true God.
Kathi

What I proved is that someone's “god” is always at least thought to be mightier than they are.

I'll await your scriptural support for someone's god NOT being mightier than they are.

mike

Mike,
But someone thinking it so does not make it so. That is all you have proven.

I do not see the point of you wanting scriptural support for someone's god not being mightier than they are.

I can show you plenty about how a father is honored just because he is a father and it has nothing to do with his resume' but everything to do with just being the begetter.

Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. (Exodus 20:12)

Wouldn't serving your father fall into showing him honor?

Kathi

April 1, 2011 at 3:37 am#241417

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 31 2011,22:23)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,08:18)

Dennison,
You are a modalist, don't you think? This is the definition:

To answer your question, I believe there are two beings of the same nature who act as one mind, they are in agreement in other words. Keep asking me questions till you get it, that's good.
Kathi

Kathi,

Not at all. I disagree with the whole thing.
I woudlnt ever define myself under a name or a set doctrine. FYI. =D

Dennison,
Then I do not understand what you believe. Do you think that the begetter is also the begotten?

Quote

#1 yes
#2 yes, like a father and son of the same race.
#3 yes, co-existing as individuals working together as father and son in complete agreement and together completely sufficient to create and save what is created.

I think you are getting real close

April 1, 2011 at 4:34 am#241436