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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,07:09) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 09 2009,14:13) WJ………John as well as all Jews saw the words of GOD , they were written in the Books they even handled them, and Jesus also spoke them to us, Jesus plainly said the words He spoke (WERE (NOT) HIS WORDS) now what part of that you do not understand WJ. peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Evasive!Did John see the Father or not? 1 John 1:1-3
Here is a correct translation of John1:1-4. See interlinear Scripture Analyser, where the original greek symbles are shown and translated, and correctly placed in order.1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the word of life.
2 And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us.
3 That which we have seen and heard we are reporting to you also, that you too may be having fellowship with us, and yet this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we are writing, that our joy may be full.Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 10 2009,01:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,07:09) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 09 2009,14:13) WJ………John as well as all Jews saw the words of GOD , they were written in the Books they even handled them, and Jesus also spoke them to us, Jesus plainly said the words He spoke (WERE (NOT) HIS WORDS) now what part of that you do not understand WJ. peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Evasive!Did John see the Father or not? 1 John 1:1-3
Here is a correct translation of John1:1-4. See interlinear Scripture Analyser, where the original greek symbles are shown and translated, and correctly placed in order.1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the word of life.
2 And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us.
3 That which we have seen and heard we are reporting to you also, that you too may be having fellowship with us, and yet this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we are writing, that our joy may be full.Blessings.
CoThere are two persons mentioned here, the life eonian was “TOWARD (see John 1:1b)” the Father, that is the “Word of Life” that John seen and handled and so he says our fellowship is with the Father and the Son.
John tells us who the “Word” is in Revelation 19:13!
WJ
WJ
Rev.19:13… 13 and He is clothed in a cloak dipped in blood, and His name is called “The Word of God.”
Notice “The Word of God”, not “The Word”. Not quite the same meaning.Blessings.
WJ……….Jesus (PLAINLY) SAID the (WORDS) he spoke were (NOT) His why can't you except that. HE Spoke (GOD the FATHERS) (WORDS) to Us. Just Believe what Jesus said , He is (NOT) GOD, his His SON, same AS WE ARE.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 11 2009,03:58) WJ……….Jesus (PLAINLY) SAID the (WORDS) he spoke were (NOT) His why can't you except that. HE Spoke (GOD the FATHERS) (WORDS) to Us. Just Believe what Jesus said , He is (NOT) GOD, his His SON, same AS WE ARE. Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene,
Show where WJ has denied that the words Christ spoke were not His while He was in the flesh. They were not His words while He was in the flesh. But they are His words in His exalted state. Jesus anticipated the time when all truth would be His as well as the Father's.“…He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.”
There it is Gene! Jesus said that all truth is His and that all that the Father has is His. Why do you deny His equality with God in His exalted state? If He is still under God then in what way was He exalted?
ALL TRUTH IS CHRIST'S NOW. DEAL WITH IT!
thinker
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 10 2009,01:46) WJ
Rev.19:13… 13 and He is clothed in a cloak dipped in blood, and His name is called “The Word of God.”
Notice “The Word of God”, not “The Word”. Not quite the same meaning.Blessings.
OKSo you are saying that the “Word” in John 1:1 is not the “Word of God”? If it is then that name is Jesus name in Revelation 19:13. If it isn't then what is the “Word” in John 1:1, 14 and 1 John 1:1-3?
John personifies the “Word” as Jesus.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,15:16) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 11 2009,03:58) WJ……….Jesus (PLAINLY) SAID the (WORDS) he spoke were (NOT) His why can't you except that. HE Spoke (GOD the FATHERS) (WORDS) to Us. Just Believe what Jesus said , He is (NOT) GOD, his His SON, same AS WE ARE. Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene,
Show where WJ has denied that the words Christ spoke were not His while He was in the flesh. They were not His words while He was in the flesh. But they are His words in His exalted state. Jesus anticipated the time when all truth would be His as well as the Father's.“…He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.”
There it is Gene! Jesus said that all truth is His and that all that the Father has is His. Why do you deny His equality with God in His exalted state? If He is still under God then in what way was He exalted?
ALL TRUTH IS CHRIST'S NOW. DEAL WITH IT!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,15:16) Gene,
Show where WJ has denied that the words Christ spoke were not His while He was in the flesh. They were not His words while He was in the flesh. But they are His words in His exalted state. Jesus anticipated the time when all truth would be His as well as the Father's.
Actually Jack, I have already shown Gene the many times that Jesus claimed his words were his own, and in fact Jesus claims the New Commandments were his own.But Gene denies it and chooses to only see certain scriptures that fit his theology. All you have to do is do a word search and you will see it.
After I have told him a few times It seemed the best thing to do was ignore him!
WJ
hi WJ
Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2009,15:39) hi WJ Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
tDon't stop there, how about…
Heaven and earth shall pass away, “but **MY WORDS** shall not pass away“. Matt 24:35
Now compare that with this…
Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, “AND I, TOO, AM WORKING.” John 5:17
In verse 18 the Jews understood his statement to be claiming equality with God, and he was for he says..
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do “nothing by himself“; HE CAN DO ONLY WHAT HE SEES HIS FATHER DOING, “BECAUSE WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES THE SON ALSO DOES. John 5:19
Now listen closely, Jesus is saying “BECAUSE WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES THE SON ALSO DOES”.
Can any mere man claim that “Whatever” he sees God do he can do?
No wonder they wanted to stone him. He is saying that he can do whatever he sees “God” do.
You see the Father does nothing without Jesus and Jesus does nothing without the Father.
Why because in John 10 Jesus says he and the Father are “One”, which the Jews also wanted to stone him for, because his statement was making himself equal to God.
Now listen to what the NET says about why the Jews also wanted to kill him and believed he was making himself equal to God in John 5…
My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection. Source NET
The implications of Jesus claims are astounding and in fact prove that Jesus “Words” are his just as they are the Fathers.
I could never claim that the “Words of God” that I speak are my words.
Later in the chapter Jesus speaks of the scriptures being written about him and they would not come “TO HIM”.
Imagine that, the Hebrew Scriptures are the biography of God (YHWH) and Jesus takes claim to them. John 5:39
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to thethinker:
Quote Actually Jack, I have already shown Gene the many times that Jesus claimed his words were his own, and in fact Jesus claims the New Commandments were his own. But Gene denies it and chooses to only see certain scriptures that fit his theology. All you have to do is do a word search and you will see it.
After I have told him a few times It seemed the best thing to do was ignore him!
Keith,
I need some clarification from you. I hold that Jesus laid aside all His divine perogatives. So while He was in the flesh His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father. In His exalted state He asserts His divine perogatives again and does His own will. Are we on the same page?But you're right about Gene. The Bic company must make a lot of money from all the “white out” he buys.
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,16:34) WorshippingJesus said to thethinker: Quote Actually Jack, I have already shown Gene the many times that Jesus claimed his words were his own, and in fact Jesus claims the New Commandments were his own. But Gene denies it and chooses to only see certain scriptures that fit his theology. All you have to do is do a word search and you will see it.
After I have told him a few times It seemed the best thing to do was ignore him!
Keith,
I need some clarification from you. I hold that Jesus laid aside all His divine perogatives. So while He was in the flesh His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father. In His exalted state He asserts His divine perogatives again and does His own will. Are we on the same page?But you're right about Gene. The Bic company must make a lot of money from all the “white out” he buys.
Jack
JackJesus worked with the Father and whatever he saw the Father do he could do and did.
He also claimed that the words he spoke were the Fathers but also were his.
Equality in nature yet subjecting himself to the Father while in the flesh to fulfill all righteousness.
Thats the way I see it.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2009,08:59) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,16:34) WorshippingJesus said to thethinker: Quote Actually Jack, I have already shown Gene the many times that Jesus claimed his words were his own, and in fact Jesus claims the New Commandments were his own. But Gene denies it and chooses to only see certain scriptures that fit his theology. All you have to do is do a word search and you will see it.
After I have told him a few times It seemed the best thing to do was ignore him!
Keith,
I need some clarification from you. I hold that Jesus laid aside all His divine perogatives. So while He was in the flesh His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father. In His exalted state He asserts His divine perogatives again and does His own will. Are we on the same page?But you're right about Gene. The Bic company must make a lot of money from all the “white out” he buys.
Jack
JackJesus worked with the Father and whatever he saw the Father do he could do and did.
He also claimed that the words he spoke were the Fathers but also were his.
Equality in nature yet subjecting himself to the Father while in the flesh to fulfill all righteousness.
Thats the way I see it.
WJ
Keith,
What you say could be taken to mean that the Son did not really subject Himself to the Father. If He really subjected Himself to the Father then His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father.See Barnes on John 7:16. He says that Christ taught “nothing that is contrary to the will of God, and which he has not appointed [him] to teach” (p. 256).
In His exalted state Jesus dispenses all things according to His own will.
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,17:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2009,08:59) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,16:34) WorshippingJesus said to thethinker: Quote Actually Jack, I have already shown Gene the many times that Jesus claimed his words were his own, and in fact Jesus claims the New Commandments were his own. But Gene denies it and chooses to only see certain scriptures that fit his theology. All you have to do is do a word search and you will see it.
After I have told him a few times It seemed the best thing to do was ignore him!
Keith,
I need some clarification from you. I hold that Jesus laid aside all His divine perogatives. So while He was in the flesh His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father. In His exalted state He asserts His divine perogatives again and does His own will. Are we on the same page?But you're right about Gene. The Bic company must make a lot of money from all the “white out” he buys.
Jack
JackJesus worked with the Father and whatever he saw the Father do he could do and did.
He also claimed that the words he spoke were the Fathers but also were his.
Equality in nature yet subjecting himself to the Father while in the flesh to fulfill all righteousness.
Thats the way I see it.
WJ
Keith,
What you say could be taken to mean that the Son did not really subject Himself to the Father. If He really subjected Himself to the Father then His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father.See Barnes on John 7:16. He says that Christ taught “nothing that is contrary to the will of God, and which he has not appointed [him] to teach” (p. 256).
In His exalted state Jesus dispenses all things according to His own will.
Jack
JackWhat I just said is scripture, Jesus own words.
When Jesus said he could not do anything of his own accord, he was not saying that he couldn't do anything but only the Father does it through him.
He is simply saying that he only does what he sees the Father doing which means he is subjecting himself to the Fathers will.
These are Jesus words…
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do “nothing by himself“; HE CAN DO ONLY WHAT HE SEES HIS FATHER DOING, “BECAUSE WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES THE SON ALSO DOES. John 5:19
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,17:12) Keith,
What you say could be taken to mean that the Son did not really subject Himself to the Father. If He really subjected Himself to the Father then His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father.
Jesus said his words were his as well as the Fathers.I am just going by what he says.
“My words will not pass away”!
Keith
hi WJ
i agree with what the scriptures said and the explanation explains,The scriptures also said Christ is the “WORD”that he his the first of creation,that he does everinthing the father told him the do,he also find a delight in doing his fathers will,that everything as been created trough him and FOR HIM,is this make him god?
?
80%of the scriptures are related to Christ so it is not God biography,but Christ forseen biography if we can say this.hi WJ
its also said that EVERYTHING WAS CREATED TROUGH CHRIST, so the only thing God has created would be the SON,so God create for the son,and the son works for the father,right???
if so then the son can not be the father nor can the father be the son,because the son is taken out of the father right???Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2009,07:19) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 10 2009,01:46) WJ
Rev.19:13… 13 and He is clothed in a cloak dipped in blood, and His name is called “The Word of God.”
Notice “The Word of God”, not “The Word”. Not quite the same meaning.Blessings.
OKSo you are saying that the “Word” in John 1:1 is not the “Word of God”? If it is then that name is Jesus name in Revelation 19:13. If it isn't then what is the “Word” in John 1:1, 14 and 1 John 1:1-3?
John personifies the “Word” as Jesus.
WJ
Hi WJ.
John1:1… In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.Notice that “and God was the word”, In context this word did not have a capital “w”, Meaning this word meant word as in the dictionary…spoken word, or… written word.
John1:14… And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Notice that “and the Word became flesh”, in this case, in context, the Word has a capital “W”, and I agree, does mean Jesus.
Now in 1John1:1… That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the word of life.
Notice in this scripture, the word “word” the “w” is small case, not capital. So in context this “word” does not mean Jesus, but the word as in “written word or spoken word”.
So because, when taken in context, the word “Word” or “word”, can have two different meanings.
Now I understand that different versions of bibles may, or may not, have these differences. That is why I use the “Concordant Literal New Testament” bible. I started using this after researching the methods used in translating, and realised that most versions are really 'interpetations', rather than 'translations', and that this version is the most acurate.
Again, many I'm sure don't share my view of this, but this is my understanding regarding this topic.
What do you think?
God Bless.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2009,09:18) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,17:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2009,08:59) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 11 2009,16:34) WorshippingJesus said to thethinker: Quote Actually Jack, I have already shown Gene the many times that Jesus claimed his words were his own, and in fact Jesus claims the New Commandments were his own. But Gene denies it and chooses to only see certain scriptures that fit his theology. All you have to do is do a word search and you will see it.
After I have told him a few times It seemed the best thing to do was ignore him!
Keith,
I need some clarification from you. I hold that Jesus laid aside all His divine perogatives. So while He was in the flesh His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father. In His exalted state He asserts His divine perogatives again and does His own will. Are we on the same page?But you're right about Gene. The Bic company must make a lot of money from all the “white out” he buys.
Jack
JackJesus worked with the Father and whatever he saw the Father do he could do and did.
He also claimed that the words he spoke were the Fathers but also were his.
Equality in nature yet subjecting himself to the Father while in the flesh to fulfill all righteousness.
Thats the way I see it.
WJ
Keith,
What you say could be taken to mean that the Son did not really subject Himself to the Father. If He really subjected Himself to the Father then His words were not His own to dispense independently of the Father.See Barnes on John 7:16. He says that Christ taught “nothing that is contrary to the will of God, and which he has not appointed [him] to teach” (p. 256).
In His exalted state Jesus dispenses all things according to His own will.
Jack
JackWhat I just said is scripture, Jesus own words.
When Jesus said he could not do anything of his own accord, he was not saying that he couldn't do anything but only the Father does it through him.
He is simply saying that he only does what he sees the Father doing which means he is subjecting himself to the Fathers will.
These are Jesus words…
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do “nothing by himself“; HE CAN DO ONLY WHAT HE SEES HIS FATHER DOING, “BECAUSE WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES THE SON ALSO DOES. John 5:19
WJ
Keith,
I agree with you on the verse you are speaking about. But in John 7:16 Jesus said, “My doctrine is not mine but His that sent me.” Please comment on John 17:6.Jack
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 11 2009,20:50) [Notice that “and God was the word”, In context this word did not have a capital “w”, Meaning this word meant word as in the dictionary…spoken word, or… written word. So the Father is a spoken or the written word!
The logic that the Father is litterally the spoken word or written word is foolish!
The text is clear in 1:1-3. It wasn't spoken words or writen words that was with God that created all things.
It was a person by and through whom all things were created.
And that person “The Word” became flesh, not a spoken word or written word.
“AND GOD WAS THE WORD“!
How clear is that?
WJ
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