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Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2010,16:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,23:26) keith,
When I say the Son had a beginning before creation, I equate that with He was generated before creation. Just like what it says here:Quote Council of Constantinople II “If anyone does not confess that there are two generations of the Word of God, one from the Father before all ages, without time and incorporeally, the other in the last days when the same came down from heaven and was incarnate . . . let such a one be anathema” (Anathemas Concerning the Three Chapters, canon 2 [A.D. 553]).
I think that you disagree with this confession, don't you?
Bump for Keith…
Keith,
Now that you are back…?Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2010,16:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,23:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,22:53) I know Keith, but your view isn't supported as to your translation of monogenes with the early church fathers and the writers of the creeds.
KathiAnd just how is that? Because the word “Monogenes” is not in the creeds. The word “Gennao” is.
So please show me how I am not in agreement!
WJ
Keith,you said:
Quote And just how is that? Because the word “Monogenes” is not in the creeds. The word “Gennao” is. Both of the words are in this creed…monogenes and gennao as far as I can tell. Look at the Greek:
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/niceneg.htm
Look for : τον μονογενη I believe that is 'the only begotten' or monogenes
and
γεννηθέν which would be gennao if I am not mistaken
γεννηθέν τα προ πάντων των αιώνων
I do think that would be translated as begotten before the ages and not eternally begotten unless 'begotten' is written in the imperfect tense.I would like to know if that “γεννηθέν” is written in the imperfect tense. The imperfect tense would indicate a continuous action. Do you know, Keith? I'll have to try to figure that out…get out the Greek textbook and do some digging
Quote Received Text of the Greek Church Greek text from the Acts of the First Council of Constantinople and in The Acts of the Council of Chalcedon.
Πιστεύομεν εις ένα Θεον Πατερα παντοκράτορα, ποιητην ουρανου και γης, ορατων τε πάντων και αορατων.Και εις ένα κύριον Ιησουν Χριστον, τον υιον του θεοθ τον μονογενη, τον ει του πατρος γεννηθέν τα προ πάντων των αιώνων, φως εκ φωτος, θεον αληθινον εκ θεου αληθινου, γεννηθέντα, ου ποιηθέντα, ομοουσιον τωι πατρί· δι' ου τα παντα εγένετο· τον δι' ημας τους αιθρώποους και δια την ημετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθοντα εκ των ουρανων και σαρκωθέντα εκ πνεύματος αγίου και Μαρίας της παρθένου και ενανθρωπήσαντα, σταυρωθέντα τε υπερ ημων επι Ποντίου Πιλάτου, και παθοντα και ταφέντα, και ανασταντα τηι τρίτηι ημέπαι κατα τας γραφάς, και ανελθόντα εις τους ουρανούς, και καθεζόμενον εκ δεξιων του πατρός, και πάλιν ερχόμενον μετα δόξης κριναι ζωντας και νεκρούς· ου της βασιλείας ουκ έσται τέλος.
Και εις το Πνευμα το Άγιον, το κύριον, (και) το ζωοποιόν, το εκ του πατρος εκπορευόμενον, το συν πατρι και υιωι συν προσκυνούμενον και συνδοξαζόμενον, το λαλησαν δια των προφητων· ει
ς μίαν, αγίαν, καθολικην και αποστολικην εκκλησίαω· ομολογουμεν εν βάπτισμα εις άφεσιν αμαρτιων· προσδοκωμεν ανάστασιν νεκρων, και ζωην του μελλοντος αιώωος. Αμήν.Now do you see how you are not in agreement? The word monogenes is in the creed and is translated as 'only begotten.'
Another bump for Keith…:) See how much catching up you have to do when your computer has a virus.
Keith,
Would you mind acknowledging this?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,14:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2010,16:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,23:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,22:53) I know Keith, but your view isn't supported as to your translation of monogenes with the early church fathers and the writers of the creeds.
KathiAnd just how is that? Because the word “Monogenes” is not in the creeds. The word “Gennao” is.
So please show me how I am not in agreement!
WJ
Keith,you said:
Quote And just how is that? Because the word “Monogenes” is not in the creeds. The word “Gennao” is. Both of the words are in this creed…monogenes and gennao as far as I can tell. Look at the Greek:
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/niceneg.htm
Look for : τον μονογενη I believe that is 'the only begotten' or monogenes
and
γεννηθέν which would be gennao if I am not mistaken
γεννηθέν τα προ πάντων των αιώνων
I do think that would be translated as begotten before the ages and not eternally begotten unless 'begotten' is written in the imperfect tense.I would like to know if that “γεννηθέν” is written in the imperfect tense. The imperfect tense would indicate a continuous action. Do you know, Keith? I'll have to try to figure that out…get out the Greek textbook and do some digging
Quote Received Text of the Greek Church Greek text from the Acts of the First Council of Constantinople and in The Acts of the Council of Chalcedon.
Πιστεύομεν εις ένα Θεον Πατερα παντοκράτορα, ποιητην ουρανου και γης, ορατων τε πάντων και αορατων.Και εις ένα κύριον Ιησουν Χριστον, τον υιον του θεοθ τον μονογενη, τον ει του πατρος γεννηθέν τα προ πάντων των αιώνων, φως εκ φωτος, θεον αληθινον εκ θεου αληθινου, γεννηθέντα, ου ποιηθέντα, ομοουσιον τωι πατρί· δι' ου τα παντα εγένετο· τον δι' ημας τους αιθρώποους και δια την ημετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθοντα εκ των ουρανων και σαρκωθέντα εκ πνεύματος αγίου και Μαρίας της παρθένου και ενανθρωπήσαντα, σταυρωθέντα τε υπερ ημων επι Ποντίου Πιλάτου, και παθοντα και ταφέντα, και ανασταντα τηι τρίτηι ημέπαι κατα τας γραφάς, και ανελθόντα εις τους ουρανούς, και καθεζόμενον εκ δεξιων του πατρός, και πάλιν ερχόμενον μετα δόξης κριναι ζωντας και νεκρούς· ου της βασιλείας ουκ έσται τέλος.
Και εις το Πνευμα το Άγιον, το κύριον, (και) το ζωοποιόν, το εκ του πατρος εκπορευόμενον, το συν πατρι και υιωι συν προσκυνούμενον και συν&
#948;οξαζόμενον, το λαλησαν δια των προφητων· εις μίαν, αγίαν, καθολικην και αποστολικην εκκλησίαω· ομολογουμεν εν βάπτισμα εις άφεσιν αμαρτιων· προσδοκωμεν ανάστασιν νεκρων, και ζωην του μελλοντος αιώωος. Αμήν.Now do you see how you are not in agreement? The word monogenes is in the creed and is translated as 'only begotten.'
Another bump for Keith…:) See how much catching up you have to do when your computer has a virus.
Keith,
Would you mind acknowledging this?
KathiI am done with the term “Begotten”, have at it. There are differences of opinions even with the early Fathers.
It doesn't matter anyways because those who wrote the creeds believed that there is only “One God” and do not divide the substance into “two Gods”.
WJ
Well, I was testing you Keith to see if you would humble yourself to admit that monogenes is in the Nicene Creed and translated as 'only begotten' and you failed that test
Quote It doesn't matter anyways because those who wrote the creeds believed that there is only “One God” and do not divide the substance into “two Gods”. APOSTLES' CREED
1.I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2.And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3.Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4.Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5.The third day he rose again from the dead:
6.He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7.From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8.I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9.I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10.The forgiveness of sins:
11.The resurrection of the body:
12.And the life everlasting. Amen.
NICENE CREED
325 A.D.
EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
As you can see, these two early creeds do not say that they believe in one God, the Son…they say they believe in one God, the Father.
The creeds evolve throughout history but I do agree with the two listed here.
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 11 2010,15:05) Kathi, Eternally Begotten…
JustAskin's opinion… Jesus, once begotten, will remain begotten, eternally.
Jesus, after he was begotten by the father when he was resurrected from the dead, remains eternally so, eternally begotten.
Fractally…just as Isaac was 'figuratively' Sacrificed and raised up again and became the begotten Son of Abraham (Note that Isaac was already the son of Abraham before he was 'begotten' of Abraham, because the 'begetting' was 'In Spirit', just as those of mankind who obtain their new Spirit will ALSO become 'Begotten SONS of GOD', eternally).Eternal. Adam was a Son of God but did not remain so 'eternally'. But that one that came after, will be so 'eternally'.
JA I agree 100% whatever some of the forefathers believe I just don't care…… eternally means just that eternally, and begotten we should all know what that is…….Peace IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,15:17) Well, I was testing you Keith to see if you would humble yourself to admit that monogenes is in the Nicene Creed and translated as 'only begotten' and you failed that test
What do you want? Shall I bow at your feet in worship?You said…
“Both of the words are in this creed…monogenes and gennao “as far as I can tell.”
As far as I can tell? Okay,, So what? As I said it doesn't matter because there are differing opinions as to the meaning of the word “Monogenes” and there still is.
How about this…?
The primary meaning of 'genos' is 'kin' or 'kind.' See Strong's# 1085. Genos is the word the Septuagint uses to translate the Genesis narrative in reference to God's edict that each bring forth after its own 'KIND.'
Again, the words 'genos' and 'genes' are one and the same. It's just written differently when part of the compound 'monogenes.'
It's primary meaning is 'kin' or 'kind.'
Quote It doesn't matter anyways because those who wrote the creeds believed that there is only “One God” and do not divide the substance into “two Gods”. Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,15:17)
APOSTLES' CREED1.I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2.And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3.Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4.Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5.The third day he rose again from the dead:
6.He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7.From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8.I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9.I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10.The forgiveness of sins:
11.The resurrection of the body:
12.And the life everlasting. Amen.
NICENE CREED
325 A.D.
EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
As you can see, these two early creeds do not say that they believe in one God, the Son…they say they believe in one God, the Father.
Ok so they meant it is okay to worship the Son who is not God?How do you support such polytheism as that in scriptures? Worse how can you say they believed in more than “One True God” by saying they believed in and worshipped “TWO”?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,15:17) The creeds evolve throughout history but I do agree with the two listed here.
Yet the creeds that evolved do not contradict the earlier ones but only clarifies them in order to totally head off Arianism!WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,07:17) Well, I was testing you Keith to see if you would humble yourself to admit that monogenes is in the Nicene Creed and translated as 'only begotten' and you failed that test Quote It doesn't matter anyways because those who wrote the creeds believed that there is only “One God” and do not divide the substance into “two Gods”. APOSTLES' CREED
1.I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2.And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3.Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4.Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5.The third day he rose again from the dead:
6.He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7.From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8.I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9.I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10.The forgiveness of sins:
11.The resurrection of the body:
12.And the life everlasting. Amen.
NICENE CREED
325 A.D.
EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
As you can see, these two early creeds do not say that they believe in one God, the Son…they say they believe in one God, the Father.
The creeds evolve throughout history but I do agree with the two listed here.
Kathi, just in case you read something else out of this. The Catholic Church even then believes in the trinity……The Holy Ghost is a person to them…..Even though you underlined Almighty God that means nothing to them, I know….Just if it slipped your mind, we were Catholics all of our lives until Georg was 47 ad I was 46, I taught all of our Children the creed and the trinity….we always said the creed at least once a year…..IreneKeith,
The reference that I have says that monogenes is made up of Strong's #3441 and #1096. You used #1085 which may be related but #1096 is a verb and #1085 isn't and it is #1096 that is part of monogenes and not #1085.Quote
NT:3439
monogenh/$
monogenes (mon-og-en-ace'); from NT:3441 and NT:1096; only-born, i.e. sole:Quote
NT:1096
gi/nomai
ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen”- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):'One of it's kind' does not reflect any kind of an action but 'only begotten' does.
Quote Yet the creeds that evolved do not contradict the earlier ones but only clarifies them in order to totally head off Arianism! Yes, I can tell their goal was not to come to unity but to divide. The creeds should seek to bring clarity to scripture, not seek to divide those who are seeking. That is where they went wrong…their motive, imo.
BTW, no need to bow down and worship, LOL, just a simple “Yes, after looking at the Greek text of the Nicene Creed, I stand corrected. The word monogenes is in that creed and is translated as only begotten and they are saying, in that creed that it took place before the ages.” Can you say that?
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 02 2010,15:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,07:17) Well, I was testing you Keith to see if you would humble yourself to admit that monogenes is in the Nicene Creed and translated as 'only begotten' and you failed that test Quote It doesn't matter anyways because those who wrote the creeds believed that there is only “One God” and do not divide the substance into “two Gods”. APOSTLES' CREED
1.I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2.And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3.Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4.Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5.The third day he rose again from the dead:
6.He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7.From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8.I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9.I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10.The forgiveness of sins:
11.The resurrection of the body:
12.And the life everlasting. Amen.
NICENE CREED
325 A.D.
EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
As you can see, these two early creeds do not say that they believe in one God, the Son…they say they believe in one God, the Father.
The creeds evolve throughout history but I do agree with the two listed here.
Kathi, just in case you read something else out of this. The Catholic Church even then believes in the trinity……The Holy Ghost is a person to them…..Even though you underlined Almighty God that means nothing to them, I know….Just if it slipped your mind, we were Catholics all of our lives until Georg was 47 ad I was 46, I taught all of our Children the creed and the trinity….we always said the creed at least once a year…..Irene
Irene,
I know that you were catholics. I do agree with the creed and IT doesn't say the Holy Spirit is a person. The catholics do believe the Spirit is a person, but I don't find that in the early church father's writings.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) Keith,
The reference that I have says that monogenes is made up of Strong's #3441 and #1096. You used #1085 which may be related but #1096 is a verb and #1085 isn't and it is #1096 that is part of monogenes and not #1085.Quote
NT:3439
monogenh/$
monogenes (mon-og-en-ace'); from NT:3441 and NT:1096; only-born, i.e. sole:Quote
NT:1096
gi/nomai
ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen”- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):'One of it's kind' does not reflect any kind of an action but 'only begotten' does.
Quote Yet the creeds that evolved do not contradict the earlier ones but only clarifies them in order to totally head off Arianism! Yes, I can tell their goal was not to come to unity but to divide. The creeds should seek to bring clarity to scripture, not seek to divide those who are seeking. That is where they went wrong…their motive, imo.
BTW, no need to bow down and worship, LOL, just a simple “Yes, after looking at the Greek text of the Nicene Creed, I stand corrected. The word monogenes is in that creed and is translated as only begotten and they are saying, in that creed that it took place before the ages.” Can you say that?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) BTW, no need to bow down and worship, LOL, just a simple “Yes, after looking at the Greek text of the Nicene Creed, I stand corrected. The word monogenes is in that creed and is translated as only begotten and they are saying, in that creed that it took place before the ages.” Can you say that?
Okay sure! Now what? I didn't answer you because you seemed to not be sure and I was not going to do the homework because IMO it doesn't matter because there is ambiguity surrounding the word and your above post proves it.Now please address why the Fathers believed it is okay to worship the Son if he is not “One God” with the Father, one substance and not divided?
I see you skirting around claiming Jesus is “part of God” who is to be worshipped as “One God” yet you believe there are two beings which are equally God!
Please show me where they believed in worshipping “Two Gods”?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) Yes, I can tell their goal was not to come to unity but to divide. The creeds should seek to bring clarity to scripture, not seek to divide those who are seeking. That is where they went wrong…their motive, imo.
KathiHow can you judge their motives? Is it only when they disagree with you that they were seeking to divide and their motives were wrong or impure? No they were united in heading off the monstrous and destructive doctrines of Arius who diminished the nature of Jesus and who he really was.
If what I said about them clarifying the earlier creeds is wrong then why did they not just destroy them, they could have done that you know? But no what you will find is that they all were part of the church and still are which is proof they do not contradict.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) Keith,
The reference that I have says that monogenes is made up of Strong's #3441 and #1096. You used #1085 which may be related but #1096 is a verb and #1085 isn't and it is #1096 that is part of monogenes and not #1085.Quote
NT:3439
monogenh/$
monogenes (mon-og-en-ace'); from NT:3441 and NT:1096; only-born, i.e. sole:Quote
NT:1096
gi/nomai
ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen”- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):'One of it's kind' does not reflect any kind of an action but 'only begotten' does.
Quote Yet the creeds that evolved do not contradict the earlier ones but only clarifies them in order to totally head off Arianism! Yes, I can tell their goal was not to come to unity but to divide. The creeds should seek to bring clarity to scripture, not seek to divide those who are seeking. That is where they went wrong…their motive, imo.
BTW, no need to bow down and worship, LOL, just a simple “Yes, after looking at the Greek text of the Nicene Creed, I stand corrected. The word monogenes is in that creed and is translated as only begotten and they are saying, in that creed that it took place before the ages.” Can you say that?
KathiYou are missing the point.
The root word for “genos” which is found in the LXX for “same kind” is G1096 – ginomai. Do you see the relation?
So it is more likely again that the NET is correct and another reason all the translations render the word as “Only Unique” or “One of a kind”…
“Or “of the unique one.” Although this word is often translated “only begotten,” such a translation is misleading, since in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship. The word in Greek was used of an only child (a son [Luke 7:12, 9:38] or a daughter [Luke 8:42]). It was also used of something unique (only one of its kind) such as the mythological Phoenix (1 Clem. 25:2). From here it passes easily to a description of Isaac (Heb 11:17 and Josephus, Ant., 1.13.1 [1.222]) who was not Abraham’s only son, but was one-of-a-kind because he was the child of the promise. Thus the word means “one-of-a-kind” and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God, Jesus is God’s Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18).
You can argue this point for ever and I will not agree with your lonely translation.
Unfortunately for you only the NASB and NWT are in unison.
I will side with the hundreds of scholars and the many translations on Biblegateway and Blueletterbible.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,08:15) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 02 2010,15:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,07:17) Well, I was testing you Keith to see if you would humble yourself to admit that monogenes is in the Nicene Creed and translated as 'only begotten' and you failed that test Quote It doesn't matter anyways because those who wrote the creeds believed that there is only “One God” and do not divide the substance into “two Gods”. APOSTLES' CREED
1.I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2.And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3.Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4.Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5.The third day he rose again from the dead:
6.He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7.From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8.I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9.I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10.The forgiveness of sins:
11.The resurrection of the body:
12.And the life everlasting. Amen.
NICENE CREED
325 A.D.
EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
As you can see, these two early creeds do not say that they believe in one God, the Son…they say they believe in one God, the Father.
The creeds evolve throughout history but I do agree with the two listed here.
Kathi, just in case you read something else out of this. The Catholic Church even then believes in the trinity……The Holy Ghost is a person to them…..Even though you underlined Almighty God that means nothing to them, I know….Just if it slipped your mind, we were Catholics all of our lives until Georg was 47 ad I was 46, I taught all of our Children the creed and the trinity….we always said the creed at least once a year…..Irene
Irene,
I know that you were catholics. I do agree with the creed and IT doesn't say the Holy Spirit is a person. The catholics do believe the Spirit is a person, but I don't find that in the early church father's writings.
kathi! I only know that the Catholic Creed says All three Father Son and Holy Ghost..The creed also is a Catholic creed, so they believe in the trinity, so I have no idea what you are talking about….The creed says all three and that is why it is the trinity. I don't know how far back you are talking about the early fore Fathers. It was in the third century when Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian came up with the trinity. And after three centuries of bloody and brutal persecution of the first Christians, it was Constantine who stopped all persecution and made the Universal Roman Church the Church of the land…..Out of it the Roman Catholic Church was formed. I really don't think that before the third century that any fore Fathers preached the word of God….most died a horrible death….i really would not believe any thing you can get over the Internet or were ever you got those Articles….. .Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,18:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) Keith,
The reference that I have says that monogenes is made up of Strong's #3441 and #1096. You used #1085 which may be related but #1096 is a verb and #1085 isn't and it is #1096 that is part of monogenes and not #1085.Quote
NT:3439
monogenh/$
monogenes (mon-og-en-ace'); from NT:3441 and NT:1096; only-born, i.e. sole:Quote
NT:1096
gi/nomai
ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen”- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):'One of it's kind' does not reflect any kind of an action but 'only begotten' does.
Quote Yet the creeds that evolved do not contradict the earlier ones but only clarifies them in order to totally head off Arianism! Yes, I can tell their goal was not to come to unity but to divide. The creeds should seek to bring clarity to scripture, not seek to divide those who are seeking. That is where they went wrong…their motive, imo.
BTW, no need to bow down and worship, LOL, just a simple “Yes, after looking at the Greek text of the Nicene Creed, I stand corrected. The word monogenes is in that creed and is translated as only begotten and they are saying, in that creed that it took place before the ages.” Can you say that?
KathiYou are missing the point.
The root word for “genos” which is found in the LXX for “same kind” is G1096 – ginomai. Do you see the relation?
So it is more likely again that the NET is correct and another reason all the translations render the word as “Only Unique” or “One of a kind”…
“Or “of the unique one.” Although this word is often translated “only begotten,” such a translation is misleading, since in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship. The word in Greek was used of an only child (a son [Luke 7:12, 9:38] or a daughter [Luke 8:42]). It was also used of something unique (only one of its kind) such as the mythological Phoenix (1 Clem. 25:2). From here it passes easily to a description of Isaac (Heb 11:17 and Josephus, Ant., 1.13.1 [1.222]) who was not Abraham’s only son, but was one-of-a-kind because he was the child of the promise. Thus the word means “one-of-a-kind” and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God, Jesus is God’s Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18).
You can argue this point for ever and I will not agree with your lonely translation.
Unfortunately for you only the NASB and NWT are in unison.
I will side with the hundreds of scholars and the many translations on Biblegateway and Blueletterbible.
WJ
KeithQuote The root word for “genos” which is found in the LXX for “same kind” is G1096 – ginomai. Do you see the relation? Yes, as I said, they are related, but genos Strongs #1085 is a noun that is from the verb #1096. The word monogenes is not made up of a noun but a verb. Do you see that if the intention of monogenes was only of its kind, then the word would have been Strong's #1085. You can see that the noun exists but it wasn't used, the verb was. You are the one missing the point if you insist that the word is made up of a noun instead of a verb.
Quote So it is more likely again that the NET is correct and another reason all the translations render the word as “Only Unique” or “One of a kind”… Don't miss this in the NET notes:
“in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship”
In their bias, the metaphysical relationship is not true and that is their basis for not translating this that way. I do believe that I have sufficiently shown you that there is a verb in this word and not a noun but the NET translation doesn't take that into account. There are no translator notes that admit this.Quote Unfortunately for you only the NASB and NWT are in unison. I will side with the hundreds of scholars and the many translations on Biblegateway and Blueletterbible.
Actually, this 'only begotten' is not at all a lonely translation. The NASB, the KJV, NKJV and the Creeds and most of the church father's agree with me in their translation of monogenes. Also, several of them speak of the Father as not begotten or, i.e. unbegotten. If monogenes was 'one of a kind/one and only' then un-monogenes would be not 'one of a kind/not one and only'…hmmmm.
Irene,
you said:Quote kathi! I only know that the Catholic Creed says All three Father Son and Holy Ghost..The creed also is a Catholic creed, so they believe in the trinity, so I have no idea what you are talking about….The creed says all three and that is why it is the trinity. I don't know how far back you are talking about the early fore Fathers. It was in the third century when Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian came up with the trinity. And after three centuries of bloody and brutal persecution of the first Christians, it was Constantine who stopped all persecution and made the Universal Roman Church the Church of the land…..Out of it the Roman Catholic Church was formed. I really don't think that before the third century that any fore Fathers preached the word of God….most died a horrible death….i really would not believe any thing you can get over the Internet or were ever you got those Articles….. .Peace and Love Irene The Nicene Creed names all three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and so does the Bible, soooooo?
1Pe 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling 1 with Jesus Christ’s blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure!Quote I really don't think that before the third century that any fore Fathers preached the word of God….most died a horrible death….i really would not believe any thing you can get over the Internet or were ever you got those Articles….. And you know that NO forefathers preached the word of God because how? Do you know anyone that preached the word of God in the first or second century, Irene? According to you, when did people start preaching the word of God?
Do you realize that the horrible deaths that many forefathers died was because the pagan government did not like what they were preaching much like why the apostles died horrible deaths. Do you know what a martyr is Irene.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,16:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) Yes, I can tell their goal was not to come to unity but to divide. The creeds should seek to bring clarity to scripture, not seek to divide those who are seeking. That is where they went wrong…their motive, imo.
KathiHow can you judge their motives? Is it only when they disagree with you that they were seeking to divide and their motives were wrong or impure? No they were united in heading off the monstrous and destructive doctrines of Arius who diminished the nature of Jesus and who he really was.
If what I said about them clarifying the earlier creeds is wrong then why did they not just destroy them, they could have done that you know? But no what you will find is that they all were part of the church and still are which is proof they do not contradict.
WJ
You are the one that mentioned their motives. If pride wasn't in the way, I believe the two groups could have heard one another with a heart for understanding. They both had valid points. Much like HN. We will probably see a new creed in our lifetime that takes 'only begotten' out of it entirely. This will further the evolution away from the original intent as I see it.They didn't destroy the earlier creeds, they added to them. Why would they destroy them? Evolution of truth to error, imo.
The monkey becomes the man, yet still there are monkeys, no need to destroy the monkeys. What needs to be destroyed is the adding to the monkeys, that which speaks of them becoming man.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,16:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) Yes, I can tell their goal was not to come to unity but to divide. The creeds should seek to bring clarity to scripture, not seek to divide those who are seeking. That is where they went wrong…their motive, imo.
KathiHow can you judge their motives? Is it only when they disagree with you that they were seeking to divide and their motives were wrong or impure? No they were united in heading off the monstrous and destructive doctrines of Arius who diminished the nature of Jesus and who he really was.
If what I said about them clarifying the earlier creeds is wrong then why did they not just destroy them, they could have done that you know? But no what you will find is that they all were part of the church and still are which is proof they do not contradict.
WJ
Well, Keith, you told me their motives. How can you judge them?Christianity started out fine with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed, then Arianism stirred things up and then all sorts of unbiblical words were added to divide the seekers.
They started with truth and then added to it. Kinda like evolution. The monkeys exist, the monkeys become men…evolution of an error. No need to destroy the truth of the monkeys existing to add that the monkeys become men. What needs to happen is to get rid of the addition that the monkeys become men.
There was no need to destroy the earlier creeds if they change them by adding to them.
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