- This topic has 501 replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 10 months ago by
.
- Posts
Thanks Adam,
For your reply on my doubts on “eternal torment and eternal fire”. I will gothrough the articles and come back to you. Meanwhile can you see this verse Rev 20:10. I am still not convinced how Satan is living together so many years for so many generations if he is not immortal as you have told that they are not holy angels. But the Bible do mention about these angels who have sinned and kept in bonds in abyss for judgment. The above verse says “Satan was thrown into lake of fire and brimstone where already the beast and the false prophet are available and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever” Is it the translation problem?
I think I need more information to believe this new idea.
Thanks again for your concern for me.
AdamI have been reading comments to this thread, but have not been posting since I have already spread myself out over too many forums, and have found that I haven't the time to sufficiently address all the responses being made. I will, however, post a series of excerpts from studies I have written related to this topic that I believe might be beneficial for all.
The first excerpt is
The Second Death
(110) The first death is the death in Adam, but the second death will in no sense be due to Adam. “In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape [of sin] and the children's teeth are set on edge,' but everyone [who dies] shall die for his own iniquity.” (Jeremiah 31:29,30) In the Millennial Age each will receive an individual trial, and all who die will die as the result of their own sin, no longer because of Adam's sin. This will be their second death, their first being the death they suffered in the past on account of Adam's disobedience. — Romans 5:12,18.
(111) The second death is pictured as a “lake of fire and brimstone” (Revelation 21:8), a forceful figure of complete destruction — a death from which there will not be a resurrection: for “the Messiah dies no more,” there will not be a second ransom for those who willfully practice sin after receiving the benefits of the ransom. (Romans 6:9) In the Greek text of the Bible, from which our translations are made, the second death is sometimes referred to symbolically as “Gehenna”, one of the three Greek words translated “hell” in the King James Version of the Bible. “Gehenna” is the Greek form of the name “Valley of Hinnom”, the valley situated immediately outside Jerusalem below Mount Zion. It was the garbage dump of the city. Fires were kept constantly burning in it and brimstone was added for the purpose of aiding the work of destruction. All the garbage of the city was cast into it; also the bodies of criminals, so as to signify that these were not worthy of a resurrection.
(112) Jesus used the fires of Gehenna as a symbol — not of torture, but of destruction. Some, however, regard the literal fires spoken of in the valley that were continually kept burning as being a literal description of a supposed life in hell. Yet if Jesus were speaking literally, then we should expect that the wicked would literally be thrown into the Valley of Hinnom. Actually, the “fire that is not put out,” the “worms,” and all the language used in connection with Gehenna is figurative. God's jealousy for his name and righteousness is never quenched. Yahweh's zeal or jealousy for righteousness will never be extinguished. Thus we read that “all the earth will be consumed by the fire of his [Yahweh's] jealousy.” (Zephaniah 1:18) “For you must not bow yourself to another god; for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.” (Exodus 34:14) “With foreign gods they moved him [Yahweh] to jealousy; and with idols they provoked him to anger; they sacrificed to demons, not God.” (Deuteronomy 32:16,17) “And Judah did evil in the sight of Yahweh, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins that they committed, more than all that their fathers had done.” (1 Kings 14:22) “And my anger will be spent, and I will make my fury rest on them, and I will be eased. And they will know that I, Yahweh, have spoken in my zeal, in my fulfilling my fury on them.” (Ezekiel 5:13) “Surely I have spoken in the fire of my jealousy against the rest of the nations.” Ezekiel 35:5. Worms (or maggots) that consumed the body of the criminals thrown into the Valley of Hinnom represents the utter destruction, not torture, of those thrown therein. These maggots were ever present in the valley. Thus they never died out. Likewise, those who are symbolically thrown into the fires of Gehenna find that there are always consuming worms [elements of destruction] ever present to destroy those who prove themselves unwilling to produce the fruits of the kingdom.
(113) Some believe that Hades and Gehenna are one and the same, as far as the place is concerned. But when that place is called Hades, they believe it refers is to the abode of the souls of the wicked before the judgment day; when it is called Gehenna they believe the reference is generally to the abode of the wicked, body and soul, after the judgment day. Actually Hades/Sheol is used in reference to the realm of death as mankind has inherited it from Adam. Gehenna represents the “second death,” from which there is no return. Jesus died to redeem all in Hades/Sheol, but once we have partaken of the deliverance, we are counted dead to Adam's sin and alive toward God. If then we continue in willfully sin, there is no more sacrifice for sins, thus we would could be symbolically thrown into Gehenna. We would be “twice dead,” entered into the second death. Likewise, the world of mankind will be made alive during the “last day,” the resurrection day, and if they do not obey they also will be symbolically thrown into Gehenna, the second death.
(114) Thus we see that there is no idea of eternal torture associated with Gehenna, the second death. It means a condition of everlasting destruction. This is just what the Psalmist said: “Yahweh preserves all them that love him; but all the wicked will he destroy”, not preserve in any condition whatsoever. — Psalm 145:20.
(115) Some would have us believe that the English word “hell” indicates the place of everlasting punishment for the wicked. It is true that in modern times hell has come to have this meaning. But it is not the basic meaning of the English word hell. Note the following:
From:
The New Grolier Electronic Encyclopedia ™ Â 1991 Grolier Electronic Publishing, Inc.
Quote
hellHell traditionally denotes the place or state of being of unrepentant souls who are damned to eternal punishment after death. Derived from the Old Teutonic word hel, meaning “to conceal” or “to cover,” the word hell is used in English translations of the Bible to represent both the Hebrew Sheol, an ethically neutral underworld for the departed, and the Greek Gehenna, the underworld for the punishment of the wicked from which the Christian concept of hell developed.
We have added bold characters for emphasis.
From:
American Heritage Dictionary
Copyright  1982 by Houghton Mifflin Company All Rights Reserved
Quote hell n. 1. The abode of the dead in ancient traditions; underworld. 2. Often Hell. In many religions, the abode of condemned souls and devils; the place of punishment for the wicked after death. 3. A place or situation of evil, misery, discord, or destruction: into the hell of battle. 4. a. Torment; anguish: went through hell on the job. b. Someone or something that causes trouble, agony, or annoyance: He's hell when a job is poorly done. 5. Hell. Christian Science. Mortal belief; sin or error. 6. A sharp scolding: gave him hell for cheating. 7. a. A tailor's receptacle for discarded material. b. A hellbox. 8. Used as an intensive: How the hell can I go? You did one hell of a job.- intr. v. helled, helling, hells. Informal. To behave riotously; carouse: out all night helling around.-interj. Slang. Used to express anger, disgust, or impatience.-idioms. hell or ( or and) high water. Informal. Troubles or difficulties of whatever magnitude: We're staying, come hell or high water. hell to pay. Informal. Bad trouble to be faced: If he's wrong, there'll be hell to pay. [ME helle < OE] Thus the dictionary gives as the basic meaning of the English word “hell” a
s “the abode of the dead”, which we believe more correctly should be “the realm of death.” We also note that the Grolier Encyclopedia shows that the English word hell comes from the Tuetonic word hel, meaning to cover or conceal. Thus it corresponds with the description of Sheol as given in Ecclesiastes 9:10.The Meek Inherit the Earth
(116) During the 1,000 years of Jesus' rule, those who resist Satan and who are loyal to God and to righteousness, who love Yahweh their God with all their heart, and mind, and soul, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves, will pass on into the Ages to follow, when there will be “no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither will there be any more pain, for the former things will have passed away.” It is at this time that the “meek inherit the earth” to dwell upon it forever. (Psalm 37:9,10,29; Matthew 5:5) Only those who worship God in spirit and in truth will attain to this condition of eternal bliss as perfect human beings on a perfect earth. Then, when the first dominion is restored, God's great plan of salvation will be complete, and the prayer that our Lord taught his disciples to offer will be answered: “Your kingdom come! Your will be done on earth as it is done in heaven!” (Matthew 6:10) The angel's message will be fulfilled: “Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.” — Luke 2:10.
— Hope of Life After Death
http://hereafter.reslight.net/hl.htmlChristian love,
RonaldThe Lake of Fire
The “lake of fire” is several times mentioned in the book of Revelation, which all Christians admit to be a book of symbols. However, they generally think and speak of this particular symbol as a literal statement giving strong support to the eternal torment doctrine, notwithstanding the fact that the symbol is clearly defined as meaning the second death: “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death”, etc. (Revelation 20:14) It is sometimes spoken of as “a lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20), the element brimstone being mentioned to intensify the symbol of destruction, the second death. Burning brimstone is one of the most deadly elements known. It is destructive to all forms of life.
We are also told that hell (hades/sheol), as well as death (Adamic death — 1 Corinthians 15:21,22), will be cast into the lake of fire. Does this mean that hell (hades/sheol) is to be tormented forever? No, but rather it means that “death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:4) Hades and Adamic death will be destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire.
The symbolism of this lake of fire is further shown by the fact that the symbolic “beast” and the symbolic “false prophet,” and death and hell [hades], as well as the devil and his followers, are destroyed in it. — Revelation 19:20; 20:10,14,15; 21:8.
This destruction or death is called the “second death” in contradistinction to the first or Adamic death. It does not signify that everything that goes into it dies a second time. For instance, death (the first or Adamic death), and hades, the realm of death inherited from Adam, are to be cast into it. In no sense will they ever have been destroyed before. So also “the devil,” “the beast,” and “the false prophet,” will never have been destroyed before.
From the first, or Adamic death, a resurrection has been provided. All that are in their graves will therefore come forth. The Revelator prophetically declares: “The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in them. . . . And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened.” (Revelation 20:13,12) It was in view of God's plan for redeeming the race from Adamic death that in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures it is called a “sleep.” In Israel's history of the good and the wicked it is repeatedly stated that they “slept with their fathers.” The apostles used the same symbol, and our Lord also. But no such symbol is used in reference to the second death. On the contrary, the strongest figures of total and utter destruction are used to symbolize it, that is, “fire and brimstone.” That will be a destruction from which there will be no recovery.
Blessed thought! the Adamic death, which claimed the whole race for the sin of their progenitor, will be forever swallowed up, and will cease in this second death into which it is to be cast by the great Redeemer who bought the whole world with the sacrifice of himself. Thus God tells us through the prophet: “I will ransom them from the power of Sheol. I will redeem them from death. . . . O Sheol, I will be your destruction.” (Hosea 13:14) The first or Adamic death will no longer have liberty or power over men, as it has had for the past six thousand years; no longer will any die for Adam's sin. (Romans 5:12; Jeremiah 31:29,30; Ezekiel 18:2) From that time onward the new covenant, sealed with the precious blood, will be in force, and only willful transgressions will be counted as sin and punished with the wages of sin — death — the second death. Thus will the Adamic death be cast into and swallowed up by the second death.
And hades and sheol — the dark, secret realm of death, which in the present time speaks to us of a hope of future life by God's resurrection power in Christ — will be no more. The second death will devour no being fit for life — none for whom there remains a shadow of hope, but such only as, by the unerring Judge, have been fully, impartially and individually found worthy of destruction. And Satan, that lying tempter who deceived and ruined the race, and who with persistent energy and cunning has sought to continually thwart the purpose of Yahweh for our salvation through Christ, and with him all who are of his spirit, “his angels,” will be destroyed, and will never awake from death to trouble the world again. Here he is said to be cast into the “lake of fire,” the second death. The apostle Paul in Hebrews 2:14, referring to the same thing, calls it destruction: “that he might destroy death, and him that has the power of death, that is, the devil.” And “the beast and the false prophet” the great false systems that have long oppressed and misled nominal Christendom and the world, will never escape from it. These systems are said to be cast “alive,” that is, while they are still organized and operative, into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. — Revelation 19:20.
The great tribulation will undoubtedly cause great social, financial and religious difficulty and pain to all those identified with these deceived and deceiving systems, before they are utterly destroyed. These systems will be cast in, destroyed, at the beginning of the Millennium, while Satan's destruction is reserved until its close, when all the “goats” will have been separated from the “sheep,” and the “goats” will perish with Satan in the second death as “his angels,” messengers or servants. None of those abominable individuals among men, who, knowing the truth, yet love unrighteousness — none of the “the fearful and unbelieving” — those who will trust Yahweh after all the manifestations of His grace afforded during the Millennial reign of Christ — nor the abominable, who, at heart are fornicators, murderers, idolaters, sorcerers and liars; none of these will escape the second death, to defile the earth again. All such after a full and abundant opportunity for reformation will be judged unworthy of life, and will be forever cut off in the second death, symbolized by the lake of fire and brimstone.
Several prophetic pen pictures of the Millennial age and its work, in chapters 20 and 21 of Revelation, clearly show the object and result of the age of trial, in harmony with the remainder of the scriptures we have already noted.
Chapter 20, verses 2,4,11 with verses 1,2,10,11 of chapter 21, show the beginning of that age of judgment, and the restraining of blinding errors and misleading systems. The “beast” and the “false prophet” are the chief symbols, and represent the political elements of Satan's empire. This judgment against the “thrones” of the present time, and against “the beast and the false prophet” systems follows speedily upon the introduction of this Millennial judgment reign. The thrones of the present dominion of earth will be “cast down,” and dominion transferred to the great prophet, priest, King and Judge, “whose right it is.” (Compare Daniel 7:14,22; Ezekiel 21:27) Then the systems of error will be speedily judged worthy of destruction, “the lake of fire,” “the second death.” — Revelation 19:20.
Thus the second destruction or death begins quite early in the new Judgment: it begins with the false systems symbolized by the Beast, False Prophet, etc., but will not reach the world of mankind, as individuals, until they have first had a full trial, with full opportunity to choose life and live forever. Chapters 20:12,13, and 21:3-7 indicate the blessed, favorable trial in which all, both dead and living (except Church, who, with Jesus Christ, are kings, priests, joint-heirs, princes and judges), will be brought to a full knowledge of the truth, relieved from sorrow and pain, and freed from every blinding error and prejudice, and tried “according to their works.”
The grand outcome of that trial will be a clean universe. As the Revelator expresses it: “Every creature which is heaven and on earth . . . I heard saying: `Blessing and hono
r and glory and power be unto him that sits on the throne, and to the Lamb forever.” (Revelation 5:13) But this result will be accomplished in harmony with all God's dealings past and present, which have always recognized man's freedom of will to choose good or evil, life or death.We cannot doubt then that in the close of the Millennial age, God will again for a “little season” permit evil to triumph, in order to test his creatures (who will by that time have become thoroughly acquainted with both good and evil, and the consequence of each, and will have had Yahweh's justice and love fully demonstrated to them), that those who finally prefer and choose evil may be cut off — destroyed. Thus God will for all eternity remove all who do not love righteousness and hate iniquity.
We read, regarding that testing, that Satan will endeavor to lead astray all mankind, whose numbers will then be as the sand of the sea for multitude; but that many of them will follow Satan's evil example and choose evil and disobedience, with past experience before them, and unhampered by present weaknesses and blinding influences, we need not suppose. However, when God does not tell us either the number or the proportion of those to be found worthy of life, and those to be judged worthy of death (the second death), we may not dogmatize. Of one thing we may be confident, God does not desire the death of the wicked, but would that all should turn to him and live; and no one will be destroyed in that “lake of fire and brimstone” (figurative of utter destruction — Gehenna) who is worthy of life, whose living longer would be a blessing to himself or to others in harmony with righteousness.
Utter and hopeless destruction is intended only for willful evildoers, who, like Satan, in pride of heart and rebellion against God, will love and do evil notwithstanding the manifestations of God's disapproval, and notwithstanding their experience with its penalties. Seemingly the goodness and love of God in the provision of a ransom, a restoration, and an opportunity of life for those individuals who had none in this life instead of leading all to an abhorrence of sin, will lead some to suppose that they have a right to rule themselves aside from Yahweh. Thus they use the grace of Yahweh as a license for open and willful rebellion. But they will go no further, for their folly will be made manifest. Their utter destruction will prove to the righteous the harmony and perfect balance of Justice, Wisdom, Love and Power in the Divine Ruler.
Excerpt from:
http://hereafter.reslight.net/hl.htmlChristian love,
RonaldRevelation 21:8
The true character of the goat class is portrayed. “The fearful and unbelieving [who will not trust God], the abominable, murderers [brother-haters], fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters [such as misappropriate and misuse divine favors, who give to self or any other creature or thing that service and honor which belongs exclusively to Yahweh], and all liars” — “whosoever love and makes a lie” [in a word, all who do not love the truth and seek it, and at any cost defend and uphold it] “will have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [Gehenna, symbol of eternal destruction], which is the second death.” Such company would be repulsive to any honest, upright being. It is hard to tolerate them now, when we can sympathize with them, knowing that such dispositions are now in great measure the result of inherited weakness of the flesh. We are moved to a measure of sympathy by the remembrance that in our own case, often, we would do good, evil is present with us. But in the case of the Millennial judgment, when the Master, the righteous Judge, will have every advantage and opportunity of knowledge and ability, this class will be an abhorrence and detestation to all who are in harmony with the King of Glory. And the righteous will be glad when, the trial being ended, the gift of life of which these will have proved themselves unworthy, will be taken from them, and when the corrupters of the earth, and all their work and influence will be destroyed.
The Devil, the Beast and
The False Prophet TormentedRevelation 20:9 tells of the destruction of those individuals who join with Satan in the last rebellion; and verse 15 tells of that same destruction in other words, using the symbol “lake of fire.” They are devoured or consumed in fire. This being the case, the torment of verse 10 cannot refer to these humans who are consumed, destroyed. Hence the question narrows down to this: “Will Satan and a false prophet and a beast be tortured forever? Does this verse teach this?”
We answer in God's own words: “All the wicked will he destroy.” (Psalm 145:20) Concerning Satan, the arch enemy of God and man, God expressly tells us that he will be destroyed, and not preserved in any sense or condition. — Hebrews 2:14.
The beast and false prophet systems, which during the Gospel Age have deceived and led astray, will be cast into a great consuming trouble in the close of this Gospel Age. The “torment” of these systems will be aionian, that is, lasting. The systems, as such, will be destroyed at the end of this age. The system of error that will suddenly manifest itself at the end of the Millennial Age and lead the “goats” to destruction, will also be consumed. (Revelation 20:7-10) Thus here Satan is added to the false prophet and the beast and is said to be “tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10) Recognizing that the beast and the false prophets are symbols for systems, we see that no humans are said to be so “tormented day and night forever and ever.” The lake of fire, we have seen, simply means the second death. Thus what does this “torment” consist of?
Let us examine the Greek word used here, basanizo, Strong's #928. Its root is Strong's #931, basanos. Strong gives the meaning of #928 as “torture.” However, he gives its root the following meaning: “a touch-stone, i.e. (by anal.) torture.” Related to this is Strong's #929, basanismos, which Strong defines as torture. According to Vine #931 means “primarily `a touchstone,' employed in testing metals”; then he adds to this: “hence, `torment,' is used (a) of physical diseases, Matt. 4:24: (b) of a condition of retribution in Hades Luke 16:23, 28.” Regarding basanizo (#928), Vine states that it “properly signifies `to test by rubbing on the touchstone' (basanos, `a touchstone'), then, `to question by applying torture'; hence `to vex, torment'; in the passive voice, `to be harassed, distressed'; it is said of men struggling in a boat against wind and waves, Matt. 14:24, RV, `distressed' (KJV, `tossed'); Mark 6:48, RV, `distressed' (KJV, `toiling')” According to A New Greek and English Lexicon, by George Dunbar, A.M.,F.R.S.E. basanosmeans: “Literally — to put to the touchstone, to put to the proof. To try, prove, examine carefully, investigate carefully, investigate closely. To torture in order to discover the truth.” The New Testament Greek Lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary gives the following meanings: “1. to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2. to question by applying torture 3. to torture 4. to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5. to be harassed, distressed a. of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind”
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=928What does all of the above mean? It simply means that basanizo, as used in Revelation 20:10, is the verb form of basanos, literally “touchstoned” or “used as a touchstone.” A touchstone is defined as: “1. A fine-grained dark stone formerly used to test the fines of gold and silver by the color of the streak made on the stone. 2. A criterion or standard by which the qualities of something are tested.” (Funk & Wagnalls) Thus the beast, false prophet and Satan the Devil, as symbols, will be used as a touchstone for all eternity, a striking tool by which to contrast Yahweh's righteous kingdom as opposed to the kingdoms of this present evil world. All creation will look upon the works of the beast, false prophet and the serpent as a reminder never to return to such an arrangement again.
Revelation 19:3, speaking of a system described as Babylon the Great, “the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth,” (Revelation 17:5) says, “Her smoke rose up forever and ever.” That is to say, the remembrance (“smoke”) of the destruction of these systems of deception and error will be lasting, the lesson will never be forgotten–as smoke, which continues to ascend after a destructive fire, is testimony that the fire has done its work. — See also Isaiah 34:8-10.
Of Revelation 14:9-11 we remark, incidentally, that all will at once concede that if a literal worshipping of a beast and image were meant in verse 9, then few, if any, in civilized lands are liable to the penalty of verse 11. In other words, who would be deceived by a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns coming out the sea? (Revelation 13:1); and if the beast, his image, wine and cup are symbols, so also would be the “torments”, and smoke and fire and brimstone.
The casting of death and hades into eternal destruction, the Second death, during the Millennial age, is a part of the utter destruction which will include every improper, injurious and useless thing. (Isaiah 11:9; Psalm 101:5-8) The Second death, the sentence of that individual trial, will be final: it will never be destroyed. And let all the lovers of righteousness say, Amen; for to destroy the Second Death, to remove the sentence of that just and impartial trial, would be to let loose again not only Satan, but all who love and practice wrong and deception, and who dishonor Yahweh with their evil institutions–to oppose, offend and endeavor to overthrow those who love and desire to serve him and enjoy his favor. We rejoice that there is no danger of this, but that divine justice unites with divine wisdom, love and power, to bring in everlasting righteousness on a permanent basis.
Excerpt from
http://hereafter.reslight.net/hl.htmlChristian love,
RonaldWhat Does the Bible Really Say About Hell?
(1) The Bible hell (sheol/hades) is the realm of death; it is described as a condition in which there is no work, no device, no knowledge, nor wisdom. — Ecclesiastes 9:10 (many translations render “sheol” as “the grave” here).
(2) The only Old Testament word translated hell is sheol, to which the New Testament word hades corresponds.
(3) In the King James translation of the Bible, sheol and hades are translated hell 41 times, grave 32 times and pit 3 times and frequently when translated hell, the margin reads, “or, the grave,” or vice vera. — Psalm 49:15; 55:15; 86:13; Isaiah 14:9; Jonah 2:2; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:13.
(4) Many translations transliterate the words sheol and hades.
(5) Satan is a liar and the father of the lie. (John 8:44) It is Satan who has the world believing that a person does not really die, therefore he lies to the world that those who are bad are roasting somewhere for all eternity, thus making God appear to be some kind of fiend. With such a view being loudly presented by the traditionalists, no wonder thousands are turning away from the Bible and going to paganism, agnosticism and atheism. The doctrine of eternal roasting is a blasphemy to the Creator. Indeed, those who claim to be friends of the Bible are often its worst enemies.
(6) Satan uses all kinds of deceptive means to continue his lies, including spiritism, hypnotism, near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, etc. “And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,' should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” — Isaiah 8:19,20, New King James Version.
(7) Contrary to the idea that any part of hell is a place of fire, torture, shrieks, etc., the Bible says: “There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.” – “in death there is no memory of you. In Sheol, who shall give you thanks?” – “For Sheol can't praise you, death can't celebrate you.” — Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalm 6:5; Isaiah 38:18.
(8) Good people, as well as bad, go to sheol (hell) at death: e.g., Jacob went down to sheol (Genesis 37:35); Job prayed to go to sheol, to be hidden there, until the resurrection (Job 14:13). Nor do the good go to an alleged section of sheol called “paradise” at death. (Paradise is never depicted as a section of sheol or hades.) Instead of going to paradise at death, David expected to be in condition in sheol where he could not give thanks to Yahweh and we further read that “Sheol can't praise you, death can't celebrate you.” These descriptions of the righteous in sheol do not reflect the added-on idea that paradise was ever a compartment in sheol. — Psalm 6:5; Isaiah 38:18.
(9) Jesus made his human soul “an offering for sin”; he “poured out his soul to death” (Isaiah 53:10, 12; Matthew 26:38), and descended into the Bible hell, but “his soul was not left in hell [sheol/hades – a state of unknowing].” Thus, Jesus' soul was in the Bible hell while he was dead, but it did not remain there. His, “soul”, however in coming out of sheol, was not the sacrificed human soul, a little lower than the angels, which was offered once for all time on behalf of mankind, but was the exalted glorified soul, for he was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. — Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27,31,33; 5:31; Philippians 2:9; Hebrews 2:9; 1 Peter 3:18.
====== See our study on “Jesus Died a Human — Raised a Spirit Being”
http://atonement.reslight.net/raisedspirit.html(10) In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover – helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of eternal suffering until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians who adopted and adapted such ideas from the Jewish and heathen mythologies.
(11) Accordingly, hell (sheol or hades) means the unconscious, oblivious condition or realm of death, where all souls, good and bad, go at death, and from which only the awakening from death can deliver any.
(12) When God told Adam of sin's penalty, He did not say, “In the day that you eat from it you will live forever in eternal suffering,” but He told him the truth: “dying thou dost die [Hebrew, “muth temuth” (more literally, to die, you will die) i.e., cease to live- or “dying, thou shalt die” – margin of KJV].” — Genesis 2:17, Young's Literal Translation.
(13) Adam began to die in that very (dying, thou shalt die — see KJV margin) day he ate the forbidden fruit.
(14) Contradicting God, Satan told the lie (John 8:44), “`Dying, ye do not die,” (Genesis 3:4, Young's Literal, or, 'You will not be dying until dead'), by which he has since deceived many into believing that the dead are not really dead, but that at death they live on, and, without waiting for the resurrection day, go directly into heaven or into eternal torment; whereas the Bible states plainly that “the dead don't know anything”. Thus “the dead don't praise Yah, Neither any who go down into silencee”; that a dead man's “sons come to honor, and he doesn't know it; They are brought low, but he doesn't perceive it of them”. Additionally, the scriptures reveal that Abraham, being dead, didn't know those living in Isaiah's day. — Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17; Job 14:21; Isaiah 63:16.
(15) The Bible states plainly that the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version); that “the wages of sin is death [cessation of life-not life in roasting]; but the free gift of God is eternal life in [by means of] Christ Jesus our Lord..” — Romans 6:23; Acts 4:12.
(16) “God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish , but have eternal life.”. “The man Christ Jesus” “gave himself a ransom [a corresponding price] for all [Adam and his race].” — John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4-6.
(17) If the penalty against Adam and his race had been eternal suffering, Jesus would have had to suffer the same suffering for all eternity in order to pay this debt; but, because the “wages of sin is death,” “Christ died for our sins,” He tasted death for every man; “Christ also suffered for sins once [not for eternity],” and He “was raised from the dead.” When Jesus was raised from the dead, he was not raised as a human living soul of flesh, but as a living spirit soul. — 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Hebrews 2:9; Romans 5:6-10; Colossians 1:18; 1 Peter 3:18; Revelation 1:18.
(18) Jesus, when on earth, said, “No man has ascended into heaven.” Peter corroborates this in the case of David. — John 3:13; Acts 2:34.
(19) The Bible says the dead, good and bad, are “asleep” (2 Peter 3:4; 2 Kings 21:17, 18; John 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), i.e., oblivious, unconscious, in sheol or hades, waiting for the awakening; “if the dead aren't raised, … then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished..” — 1 Corinthians 15:13-18.
(20) God through Christ ransoms all, not from eternal torture or eternal conscious suffering, but “from the power of the grave [sheol]” (Hosea 13:14, King James Version). None, however, actually come forth from sheol/hades until Jesus calls them in the resurrection awakening at His Second Advent (John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 52), when (and not previously) the apostle Paul and others receive their crowns of life and rewards. — 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 1:5; 5:4; Luke 14:14.
(21) Eventually, “all that are in the tombs will hear his [
Jesus'] voice, and will come forth” (John 5:28,29). When sheol/hades thus delivers up all who sleep in Adamic death, sheol/hades will forever cease to exist-“O Grave, [sheol] I will be your destruction!” (New King James Version); “Death and hades [also the devil, the beast, the false prophet and the incorrigibly wicked] were thrown into the lake of fire [fire consumes; Yahweh's jealousy for his name and righteousness is represented as fire, which when kindled destroys — Zephaniah 1:18; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 32;16,17; 1 Kings 14:22; Ezekiel 5:13; 36:5], This [lake of fire] is [represents] the second death [utter, complete and eternal annihilation, from which none will ever be recovered].” — Hosea 13:14; Revelation 19:20; 20:14, 15; 21:8; Galatians 6:8; Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 12:29; 1 John 5:16; Jude 12, 13.(22) Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth by God “as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.” (Jude 7) – not that the literal fire is still burning and is unable to destroy those cities, but that the fire of God's jealousy brought upon them eternal destruction as cities, even as the “everlasting fire [of God's jealousy] prepared for the devil and his angels” will bring everlasting destruction upon them. — Hebrews 2:14; Ezekiel 28:19; Psalm 145:20.
(23) In Revelation 20:10 (compare 14:10, 11) the word translated “tormented” in most translations should have been rendered “tested” or “examined”. The evil deeds and teachings of the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be examined forever by the righteous, and will be recognized as highly deserving destruction. — compare Isaiah 14:15-17.
(24) “Narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life,” but “broad is the way that leads to destruction [not eternal suffering], and many are those who enter in by it..” — Matthew 7:13,14.
(25) After an individual final judgment, the wicked “will pay the penalty: eternal destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9); they 'bring upon themselves swift destruction' (2 Peter 2:1, 12); their “end is destruction” (Philippians 3:19); they “shall go away into eternal punishment [not eternal suffering or eternal torturing, but death, for 'sin, when it is finished, brings forth death' (James 1:15; 4:12); everlasting death is the everlasting punishment], but the righteous [who only will have everlasting life after the final judgment — Psalm 37:9-11] into eternal life.” — Matthew 25:46.
(26) Also, the New Testament word gehenna is translated hell in the KJV and many other translations; its Old Testament equivalent is ge-Hinnom — valley of Hinnom. Into this valley outside Jerusalem refuse was cast, and it was destroyed there either by worms or by fire and brimstone. Gehenna., “'where their worm doesn't die [literally, “where the maggot of them not ends], and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48; see also Isaiah 66:24), represents the Second Death — not that their worm exists eternally, nor that there is place where they will exist in a burning condition for eternity, but God's destruction of the wicked is sure, pictured by everything cast into the valley of Hinnom being completely destroyed, either by the worms or by the fire. The literal fires of Gehenna indeed were kept burning, and never allowed to be quenched. Likewise, any body thrown into the valley that did not reach the fires would be consumed by the maggots along the walls, that never ceased to be present.
(27) God “is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna”. “Every soul that will not listen to that prophet [Jesus] will be utterly destroyed”. “Yahweh preserves all those who love him, But all the wicked he will destroy.” — Matthew 10:28; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Acts 3:23; Psalm 145:20.
(28) God is just (Deuteronomy 32:4) and will punish every sinner according to his guilt (Matthew 12:36; Luke 12:47,48), but His justice forbids His exacting a greater extreme penalty than the one He declared, i.e., death – “'Shall mortal man [who unless debased would not consider torturing even a cat in fire for one minute, let alone for eternity] be more just than God? … Far be it from God, that he should do wickedness.” — Job 4:17; 34:10.
(29) “God is love” and He desires us to 'worship him in spirit and in truth,' out of love for Him, and not because of fear of punishment now and roasting or suffering in the hereafter for eternity – “perfect love casts out fear [dread].” — 1 John 4:8-12, 16-21; John 4:24.
(30) There are those that claim that the doctrine of eternal roasting is needed to bring people into fear of God. Our fear (reverence) of him should be motivated by our love for him, not because of some fiendish plot to eternally roast us if we do not fear him. True reverence for God comes from an awe at the creation around us and within us, plus the fact that God sent his Son to die for us, to save us, not from eternal roasting, but from death.
From:
http://hereafter.reslight.net/b-h.htmlChristian love,
RonaldHi RD,
Of course Hades is only a place of waiting for judgement.[Lk16]
It is not to be confused with the lake of fire which is it's eventual fate.Quote Hi RD,
The word ROASTING is inappropriate as it is not bodies that are involved surely but souls.hmmm. The Bible speaks of the soul as having blood (Gen 9:5) of eating (Lev 7:18). The general all purpose definition of soul according to all the scriptures is: Person, or animal, or the life of a person or animal.
Hi david,
Sometimes the scriptures refer to the whole being as soul since the body is only a tent.
Life comes from spirit[Jas] as does eternal life from the Spirit of God.Quote Sometimes the scriptures refer to the whole being as soul I would say “usually,” or almost always, with the exceptions of the times when souls refers to animals, etc.
The first instance of “soul” refers to animals.
The second instance, also animals.
Third instance, Adam came to BE A LIVING SOUL.
Forth instance, again, the animals are called souls.
5th instance, is interesting, “only flesh with it's soul–it's blood, you must not eat.” Here, I believe life, blood and soul are equated.Actually, I think the basic meaning of soul is “a breather.”
The words Soul and spirit have intertwined orgins… spirit comes from L. spiritus “soul, courage, vigor, breath,” related to spirare “to breathe,” from PIE *(s)peis- “to blow”
Distinction between “soul” and “spirit” (as “seat of emotions”) became current in Christian terminology (e.g. Gk. psykhe vs. pneuma, L. anima vs. spiritus) but “is without significance for earlier periods” [Buck]. L. spiritus, usually in classical L. “breath,” replaces animus in the sense “spirit” in the imperial period and appears in Christian writings as the usual equivalent of Gk. pneuma.
So we see again…Organized Mainstream Christianity has changed the true meanings of words to fit their doctrine…The first century congregation knew of NO eternal torment…nor did they think of spirit in the terms of something that is seperate from the body
Hi Dk,
Paul referred to his body as a tent in 2Cor5.
The Word can discern between soul and spirit[Heb4]Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2008,12:56) Hi Dk,
Paul referred to his body as a tent in 2Cor5.
The Word can discern between soul and spirit[Heb4]
Agreed..based on context…Nick……….Jesus said the words i am telling you (ARE) Spirit and (ARE) life. So the words are Spirit and GOD is A Spirit, Jesus said right, So then isn't the Word God. As John 1:1 says, and Jesus said God was in Him how by the words. But that did not make Him the word did it, So he could say the words i Speak are (NOT) MY words but the words of Him that sent Me.
How easy to understand explained BY Jesus Himself.
peace………gene
To All……….God considers people temples in which He can (INDWELL) Jesus was a human being, Just like you and I, who received Gods Spirit at berth and by that Spirit was able to live a perfect life without sin. Jesus plainly said He could do nothing of Himself, the father In Him did the works, He did not take credit for what he was doing but gave all the Glory to the ONE who was doing it, saying i Have Glorified (YOU) on the earth, He never sought his own glory, but always glorified the Father. Jesus said why call me good, there is (ONLY) ONE thats GOOD and thats God.
You will never get the word of God right in your mind if you hold onto the false teaching of trinitarians. They are provocateurs of confusion more then any religious group there is.
IMO……….gene
Quote (gollamudi @ June 13 2008,00:41) Hi Nick,
Yes he(Jesus) is the living word of God now. Is there any doubt in that?
Hi GM,
No other man was the prefect mouthpiece for God.Nick………so i guess Moses and all the other Prophets who God spoke through didn't count right, even though Jesus quoted them often . God's word is God's word no matter who it comes (THROUGH) in the past, present or future it makes no difference if its God's word it GOD's word, surely you know that right.
gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
