Eternal torment

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….I am going to explain why I believe there is not a eternal everlasting Hell Fire, I started to search for more scriptures on Fire us symbolic and there were so many Fire related scripture it slowed me down, I”LL have to sort through them so i can post them it will take me some time though. And i'll try to find that thing on King David to.

thanks………gene

[gollamudi]

Do take time to post such understandings on this topic called “eternal torment” my brother Gene

[seek and you will find]

And is hell a literal place of torment, somewhere below us? Thank God it is not. The word “hell” comes from an old English word and means nothing more then a hole in the ground. After all, isn’t that where we bury the dead in a grave? That is what hell is, a grave. The mistake is being made when we are told we have a soul that cannot die; and if you are not “saved”, you will burn in hell forever. The fact is, we are a soul,
Gen. 2:7 “ And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.”
This is exactly what Job is saying,
Job 33:4 “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me
life.”
The breath is what gave man life, not a soul. Anything that has the breath of life is a soul including all animals. And even if we had a soul, how do you explain,
Ezek. 18:20 “ The soul that sinneth, it shall die…”
Mat. 10:28 “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
If you believe you have a soul, you have to believe it can be destroyed; that is what Jesus was saying, and Paul says.
Rom. 6:23 “ For the wages of sin is death…”
Death is the opposite of life, you stop breathing, and you stop living.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;
so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee
thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of
forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
There is nothing in these scriptures that give even a hind, that anything of you remains alive or conscious, when you’re dead. You cannot have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time, etc. etc.; neither can you be dead and alive at the same time. There is nothing immortal about us or in us. Nowhere in the bible will you find that, when the body dies the “soul” lives on.
It is obvious that no one is aware; that claiming our “soul” is indestructible is an insult to God. We are limiting God by saying; he can’t destroy us, any part of us. We are God’s creation, anything God has created he can destroy.
It all started with the lie Satan told Eve.
Gen. 3:4 “ And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die.”
And that lie is still being told today! Paul tells us there is only one who has immortality, the Father.
1 Tim. 6:16 “ Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can
approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and
power everlasting, Amen.”
And hear is what Jesus said.
John 5:26 “ For as the Father has life in himself (immortality), so has he given to the son to have life in himself (immortality).”
The Father, Jehovah God, is the only one who has always been immortal. And Jesus is the only one the Father has given immortality; after his job hear on earth was finished. That also shows that Jesus did not always have immortality, and that now he can never die again. That is what immortality means, death is impossible; you cannot have immortality and choose to die; if you can die you are not immortal. That is just plain common sense. Why would Paul say death has no more dominion over Jesus?
Rom. 6:9 “ Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death has no more dominion (power) over him.”
The only reason death had power over him was, because he became sin for us.
2 Cor. 5:21 “ For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin…”
When Jesus ascended into heaven, forty days after his resurrection.
Acts 1:2 “Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost
had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.”
v. 3 “To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs
being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the
kingdom of God.”
v. 9 “ And when he had spoken these things while they beheld, he was taken up…”
He was on his way to receive his reward from the Father, a divine, glorified spirit body, immortality, for a job well done. As for us humans we all will die, sleep in our graves (hell), wait for the resurrection; and while we sleep we will know nothing.
In 1 Cor. 15:20-58 and in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, Paul is explaining the resurrection of the dead, not the living. And where does the idea that the “unsaved”, will burn in an everlasting fire come from anyway? Just a thought, an Italian poet, Dante, wrote a comedy, “the Inferno”, back in the 13th Century, in which he describes hell in its various stages of punishments, as the Devil takes him on a tour through hell. What a laugh he would have if he knew that our scholars and highly trained educators used his book as a blueprint for teaching what the punishment for sinners will be. There are some ministers that seem to try to outdo Dante by teaching that hell is just a holding place for sinners, a warm up place if you will, because, according to them after judgment day, the sinner will be promoted to the “lake of fire”, a much hotter place.
Also, think about this: How many dictators have tried with cruelty to rule the world or at least their own country? Although they have become famous, do we really admire them? Do we not rather speak of them as inhuman, monstrous, beastly and sadistic? And yes, they were all that, but their victims dieing an agonizing and tortures death, did die, and now rest in peace. How many of us remember the burning twin Towers? Did we not watch in horror thinking of the people that were trapped by the flames? And yet on Sunday in Church, we hallelujah, we amen, and applaud, when we hear how God will punish the sinner for all eternity. Do we not realize that we make God worse then any dictator? Think about it! Our creator; our loving Father and savior; enjoying himself on the suffering of his creation??? And still we are supposed to believe he is our God of love? Whose spirit do we have that wants us to believe that? It is demonic and blasphemous. The bible tells us how God feels about deliberate, live burnings;
2 Kings 21:2 “ And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abomination of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.”
v. 3 “For he build up again the high places which Hezeki’ah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Ba’al and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served them.”
v. 6 “ And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards; he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.”
Jer. 7:31 “ And they have build the high place of To’phet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I co
mmanded them not, neither came it into my heart.”
God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked; should we believe he has pleasure in his torture?
Ez. 33:11 “ Say unto them, as I live saith the lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live….”
1 Tim. 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
v. 5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
v. 6 “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
What is a ransom? A ransom is an exchange of something or some one, for something or some one, of equal value. Jesus was not only the Son of God, he was spirit in nature, of much higher value than Adam, a human; so Jesus humbled himself.
Phil. 2:7 “But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.”
v. 8 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”
It was necessary for Jesus to take on our nature, because he would be dying for one of our nature. Spirit beings cannot be killed, except by God. By being borne as a human, he learned what it was like to be a human from birth. He learned through experience, and would be able to identify with us.
Heb. 2:18 “For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
God took away his spirit body, and gave him a human body. His body had to grow, but not his mind, his spirit; it was the same mind that he had in his spirit body.
Have you ever heard someone say, or maybe you said it yourself: if I only had known 30 years ago what I know today? The body of Jesus had to grow up, but not his mind. Jesus in this body died, but when he was resurrected, God gave him back his true nature, spirit. God put his mind back into his spirit body; it was after all his human body that took on all of our sins, not his mind.
2 Cor. 5:21 “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
His human body had to remain in the grave, that is what a ransom is, an exchange. Adam was freed from the grave, because Jesus took his place.
Heb. 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
Those who advocate there is a literal hell burning with fire, for the punishing of sinners, seem to forget that Jesus is there with them; did he not take on our sins? Does that not make him a sinner? Also, those who teach Jesus was bodily resurrected do not understand the concept of the ransom. Jesus traded places with Adam in the grave; Adam was freed from it, Jesus had to remain in it. Had Jesus been bodily resurrected, it would have been the same as taking back the ransom. The penalty for sin is death, permanent death, not just dying and then being resurrected again.
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
A bodily resurrection would have made his sacrifice void, and all of our sins would be unforgiven. Jesus dead body was no longer needed, and God simply disposed of it. Paul assures us.
1 Cor. 15:20 “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”
Jesus was resurrected, but not in his flesh body.
2 Cor. 5:16 “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”
And God had told us he would not allow his body to decay.
Ps. 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).”
Paul is also saying this.
Acts 24:15 “And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”
Even though we are all going to die, due to Adam’s sin, no one has yet been sentenced to eternal death, rather, all that have died, sleeping in their grave – hell -, will live again in Christ’s Millennium. The reason the bible tells us that the dead are sleeping in their graves is, because there will be an awakening from that sleep, it is the resurrection
1 Cor. 15:22 “ For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
For as in Adam all die; Adam’s sin made him unclean, and Job tells us;
Job 14:4 “ Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.”
We were doomed to die before we were born, before we had sinned. If we were to die for our own sins, how would you explain the death of infants and small children who have no concept of sin nor could they have committed any sin? We are all cursed with Adam’s curse, death. Did Job believe in a resurrection?
v. 14 “ If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait (in the grave), till my change come (the resurrection).”
v. 15 “ Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee, thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.”
Job not only believed in a resurrection, he also believed he would not be resurrected as an old man;
Job 33:25 “ His flesh shall be fresher than a child’s; he shall return to the days of his youth.”
This resurrection will occur during the Millennium, the thousand-year reign of Christ, also called “the day of the Lord” or “judgment day”. This will be the due time. But this “day” is not a day of condemning and sentencing; it is rather a time, thousand years, of teaching and correcting with fairness and justice. It is a time when all will have a chance to know and understand the truth;
Zeph. 3:9 “ For then will I turn to the people a pure language (the true Gospel), that they may all call upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), to serve him with one consent.”
How many different religions do we have today? How many denominations are there alone in them that call themselves Christians? Why is it, that even within a denomination, Ministers can’t agree? That is all going to change.
Is. 11:9 “ They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain (kingdom) for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”
We should also see from this that not all would become spirit beings. If all the “saved” were to go to heaven, and all the “unsaved” were to go to hell, how would you explain;
Mat. 5:5 “ Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”
And who are the meek? They are all who during the millennium have listened and obeyed the gospel of Christ; to become a spirit being, that is to have a change of nature, is the reward for the saints only. And who are the saints?
Ps. 50:5 “ Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”
Rev. 3:21 “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and am sat down with my Father in his throne.”
Do the saints go to heaven?
Rev. 5:10 “ And hast made us (the saints) unto our God kings and priests; and we shall reign (with Christ) on the earth.”
I say that makes it very plain; the meek will inherit the earth, and the saints will inherit the kingdom of God, his spiritual kingdom, and rule with Christ the King of kings, over the meek, for a thousand years, here on this earth.
ISN’T THIS WHAT WE’RE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR?

A article of my husband's new Book soon to be published.
Peace and Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi Mrs,
The lake of fire is written.

[GeneBalthrop]

seeking truth………..the Soul that sinneth it shall die., and it says (ALL) have sinned , so all must die. right. It doesn't say the soul that does not repent wont die then does it.

If we conceder that the soul is composed of the will, then all wills must die, and guess what only (ONE WILL) will be done and thats God's, so i geuss all souls will die them, and the words hold true. We must put the self to death as Jesus did. He who will save His life will loose it. right?.

peace…….gene

[NickHassan]

Hio GB,
The soul is composed of the Will? Big assumption.
I would not suggest we build on assumptions.

[david]

Quote

Hi Mrs, The lake of fire is written.

And it is written that it is the “second DEATH.”

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Yes.

[GeneBalthrop]

Eternal torment……….is it biblical, NO, first of all the word translated eternal is a mistranslation, it should be eion a Greek word that means (Age) So the torment is age lasting not eternal. Everywhere you see the word eternal Just put age there.

Why would a God of (LOVE) cast a person He created into a ever burning lake of Fire anyway,
what kind of monster would do that. Jesus said to love your enemies do good to those who despitfully use you and say all manor of evil against you falsely. Wasen't He refectinig the Father atitude to Us, and why would He say forgive and it will be forgiven you. Don't you think the Father is that way also.

I tell you when i hear some so called Christians talk about how God is going to burn people in a eternal Fire I think that what they would do if they were God is really what there saying, and of course it always the other person thats going to Hell not them, These are evil and deceitful men who themselves will enter into a fire Judgment with God. King david said (BLESSED ) is the man whom the Lord will not impute Sin whos iniquites He has covered. God Has covered all sin under the blood of Christ, not Just us but the sin of the whole world isn't that what John Said, and doesn't it say God has concluded all under sin that He might have mercy on all, not Just a picky few. The God that “Christendom” portrays is a monster and is not the GOD Jesus Portrayed

Fire is symbolic language as is a lot of the scriptures. For our God is a Consuming Fire. Thats repeated i think in 3 or 4 places. The saints are going fiery trials as Peter says, Now concerning this fiery trial that has tried you as if some strange thing has happened to you. here we see Fire as a form of intense testing and judgment. Doesn't it say Judgment must begin at the house of God, so those who are truly called are going to different form of fiery trials and judgments now in this life.

Zec 13:9…> and I will bring the third part through the fire and will (REFINE) them as Silver is refined, and will try them as Gold is tried (Gold is tried in Fire) they will call on me and i will answer them. I will say it is my people and they will shall say The Lord is my God.

Mark……Jesus said everyone shall be salted with (FIRE) that leaves no one out.

Luk 12:49….> I am come to send (FIRE) on the earth; and what will it if it be already kindled., The fire mentioned Here is judgments, Are we not baptized with Spirit and (FIRE).

Isa 33:14 …> the sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrite; who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings. Gods judgments never die out.

Jer 23:29…> is not my word like a (FIRE) saith the Lord;
Here God's word is symbolized as a FIRE

Deu 4:25…> For the Lord thy God is a consuming (FIRE).
So who do you think is the lake of (Fire.)

Deu 4:33…> did ever a people hear the voice of God speak out of the midst of the (FIRE)

Psa.104:4…> who makes his angles spirits and His ministers a flam of (FIRE).

So you can see every clearly Fire is symbolic of Judgments and especially in the symbolic book of Revelations. God is (NOT) going to through His creation int a real Fire and watch them scream out into all eternity and sizzle in a literal ever burning fire, as taught by fear mongering So Called “Christians” . But He will enter into intense Judgment with those that are cast into this symbolic lake of Fire. All the true Saints have and are now going through the Fire of Judgments , they have been baptized with Spirit and (FIRE)>so don't you think their going through Firey trials now, especially knowing judgment begins at the House of God.

Yes everyone will be salted with (FIRE) by a loving and mercy full Loving Father. Thats what loving Fathers DO.

Love and peace to you all……………gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So you believe in salvation for all?
You believe what is written should be taken with a grain of salt?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..If i took the will out of you what would be left them (nothing) in my opinion. A person is not a person without a will, with out a will you have no Mind, You know that Nick, is not a leap to assume that. If you can prove other wise lets hear it. Tell me this Nick does your life include your Soul? And doesn't it say what i quoted about saving your life or loosing it.

peace …………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Will is only one aspect of a person. Heart and mind are independant of will.
Soul includes all that makes you and me without body and the enlivening spark of spirit.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….. How could your mind be independent of you will. If i took your will out of you, you would simply be a zombie, Totally removed from all thought. Your will is your collective thoughts.surely you know that………….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Do you remember your childhood?
How is your will responsible?  

Will is collected thoughts?

Mind and memory I call that.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……good Mind and memory you call it, your right and guess what makes up you will, your memory which is in your mind. It causes you to will or desire something, do away with the will then all the memory in the world is useless because it could produce no action you would simply be a person who could not make any decisions. everything you will comes from your memory and from it you choose things. Thats why it says, He (GOD) works IN us to both to (WILL) and do His good Pleasure.

imo……..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So memories and thoughts and feelings cause us to make decisions?
Not always. The will of man is not his heart or his mind.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2008,11:54)

Hi GB, So you believe in salvation for all? You believe what is written should be taken with a grain of salt?

Nick………now there you go telling me what i believe again, when did i say i believe what is written should be taken with a grain of salt. Those are your words not mine. In fact how do you believe i believe in Salvation for all by what i wrote or quoted.

The only thing i would base salvation for all on is God Not desiring any to parish, and His power to get in the mind and hearts of People and change them in the way they think, And if He is not willing any parish, who am i to go against His will. You can if you want to, but i choose not to.

And if He says He will have mercy on all who am i to go against God.

IMO….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2008,13:17)

Hi GB, So memories and thoughts and feelings cause us to make decisions? Not always. The will of man is not his heart or his mind.

Nick………you or no one else have never made a decision in your life without using your memory and mind.

Nick lets stop this usless talk …………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
A good way to put it.
It shows the will works alongside the memory and mind.
It does not encompass them nor the heart.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 09 2008,17:28)

Hi Gene, I am not comfortable about “eternal torment and judgment through fire” why don't you explain more clearly by using some verses. I was also thinking that sinners and wicked will be burning in Hell fire forever since they also come to life again in the second resurrection as told in Rev 20. Also the words of Jesus that “neither fire will quench nor the worm will die” I understood that people have to suffer in Hell forever and we the righteous will also live forever in God's kingdom. One more thing what I understood was that Hell fire is resreved for Satan and his angels as they are immortals how can die again unless they must be suffering in the Hell forever. These are my understandings about the eternal torment. I think you are having some thing different. Kindly give some verses to support your beliefs so that I can also get them easily. Blessings Adam

Greetings Adam

FYI, I recommend the following articles …

http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/37.htm#2

http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/510.htm#1

Also, concerning satan & his angels …
Seeing that the fire of the age to come (poorly translated “everlasting fire”) [Matt 25.41] is prepared for the devil and his angels:
These obviously are not GOD's “holy” angels; therefore there is nothing to suggest that GOD has immortalized them.
So the devil and “his angels” will be destroyed/annihilated in the fire of the age to come … eventually.

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