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I think we are slightly deviated from the topic “eternal Torment” by the enticement of “free will”.
Am I right my brother Gene?gollamudi…….your right we need to et back on subject.
As i have stated before there is no such thing as eternal torment, What kind of God would send his created children into eternal Hell Fire where they could scream out into all eternity in ever burning agony, as most Christian think will happen to people, who don't see things there way.
In fact i think it gives some the sense of superiority to believe that, but for sure that would never happen to them of course. If God is able to cause people to change by removing wrong thinking and installing right thinking in some cant he do it for all, and if he said it was not His will that (any) parish.
What makes people think that won't happen. ” for god does all things after the council of His (OWN WILL)”, not our will be done, But His Will will be done. If we believe God is capable of changing one then he can and will change all. If we say God is love and is not willing for any to parish, whats wrong with believing thats what will happen. Once we come to see (FIRE) is used in scripture as intense Judgment and not eternal destruction, but a means of correction many scriptures start to make more sense.
Like where it says “every mans work shall be tried by fire, and if He has built with gold, silver, or precious stones, he shall receive a reward, but if he has built with wood, straw,stubble it shall be burned up and he shall suffer loss (BUT) he Himself shall (BE SAVED) yet as by (FIRE).
The man will be saved by the fire judgments of God, intense as it may be, Yet He shall be saved. doesn't it say for our God is a consuming FIRE. God Himself is the lake of Fire, and the smoke that ascends for ever is the result of those fiery trials the lessons that will be learned will last forever and ever. Theres hope for all of God's creation everyone not because of who we are , but because of who our heavenly Father is.
peace and love to you all………..gene
Hi Gene,
I am not comfortable about “eternal torment and judgment through fire” why don't you explain more clearly by using some verses. I was also thinking that sinners and wicked will be burning in Hell fire forever since they also come to life again in the second resurrection as told in Rev 20. Also the words of Jesus that “neither fire will quech nor the worm will die” I understood that people have to suffer in Hell forever and we the righteous will also live forever in God's kingdom. One more thing what I understood was that Hell fire is resreved for Satan and his angels as they are immortals how can die again unless they must be suffering in the Hell forever. These are my understandings about the eternal torment. I think you are having some thing different.
Kindly give some verses to support your beliefs so that I can also get them easily.
Blessings
Adamgollamudi………what i will do is try to write a complete article on it and post it it will answer your questions, one thing is remember the book of reverlations is symbolic, look up the words in the first chapter of Rev 1:1, you will see that He sent and signified it. Look up the meaning of signified you will find it means (SYMBOLIZED) it. Another much of the mook can not be taken literately. I have in the past explained about the worm that dies
not, here before, but i will try to put it all together and post it it will be along Post unless we talk about one part at a time, but I will try to keep it as short as possible brother.Adam another site that has a lot about the lake of Fire and in fact where i got a lot of my understanding on Hell Fire teachings is L. Ray Smith, Just type in that name and it will take you to His site (bible truths). Some of his material i think is right on and other things i don't really agree with, but the hell Fire and the Free will subjects i really do agree with.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene
Gollamundi……….the fire can't be quenched unless the worm dies that applies to all. We have to understand what the worn is , the worm is our own stubborn wills in us and until it's put to death the fire (Judgments) never stop. think about it. I'll discuss it more later.
peace in love my brother………………..gene
Hi Gene,
Thank you very much brother for your concern for me. I really want to learn some think that I don't know so far. Really once again I have to appreciate your way of dealing things and explaining scriptures is marvellous no one in this forum has reached to that level so far except a few some where near.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,05:04) Gollamundi……….the fire can't be quenched unless the worm dies that applies to all. We have to understand what the worn is , the worm is our own stubborn wills in us and until it's put to death the fire (Judgments) never stop. think about it. I'll discuss it more later. peace in love my brother………………..gene
Hi GB,
Where is this matter proven in scripture?Quote why don't you explain more clearly by using some verses. 1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say? (Also Jer 32:35; 19:5)
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?
Justice is “the quality of being just or fair.” –wordnet.princeton.
“Fair” is “conforming with established standards or rules.”–wordnet.princeton.
This means Jehovah, a lover of justice would be fair or conform to his own standards or rules. To not do this would be hypocritical, afterall.
So Jehovah is just, he conforms to his own standards, obviously.
If Jehovah conforms to his own standards, and Jehovah tells us to love our enemies, in what world or universe could you imagine that Jehovah would be fair or just and conform to this standard if He tortured his own enemies for all time.5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible contradict itself?10.–Is not the idea that the soul is immortal contrary to what you personally have observed?
–What happens when a person is knocked unconscious, faints, or is placed under an anesthetic at a hospital?
If his “soul” is really something separate from the body and is able to function intelligently apart from the body, so that even death itself does not affect its existence and its functions, why is it that during such period of unconsciousness the person is completely unaware of all activity around him?
–Why is it that he must be told afterward what happened during that time?
–If his “soul” can see, hear, feel and think after death, as religions generally teach, why does something far less drastic than death, such as a period of unconsciousness, stop all these functions?Hi David,
It is better to accept all scripture as truth rather than choosing the bits we like and can understand.Quote It is better to accept all scripture as truth rather than choosing the bits we like and can understand. And that's precisely what I've told you about 15 times on this very thread. You have precicely two things you use to support your idea of God as someone who tortures people for all time:
1. An illustration.
2. The highly symbolic book of Revelation.These are the two areas you like to play with this slanderous idea of eternal torment. You deny the rest of scripture as a whole and focus on things that can be taken more than one way.
Hi david,
Scripture does not say that God tortures men for eternity.
God is not a torturer and is above dealing to His creation Himself.
Pain as we know it relates to the body though the soul in Lk 16 seemed to be suffering.
Scripture speaks of the destruction of the body and the soul in the lake of fire prepared for the angels.Who knows what that involves or how long it takes?
Quote Scripture does not say that God tortures men for eternity. Thank you for finally admitting this.
Quote Scripture speaks of the destruction of the body and the soul . . . .Who knows what that involves or how long it takes?
I know it doesn't take eternity to destroy something. If it did, the thing would never actually be destroyed. Hence, a paradox.
Hi david,
Torturers are mentioned in scripture.
Matthew 18:34
“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.Hi david,
Number 930
Transliteration:
basanistes {bas-an-is-tace'}
Word Origin:
from 928
TDNT:
1:561,96
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
tormentor 1Total: 1
Definition:
one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack
an inquisitor, torturer also used of a jailer doubtless because the business of torturing was also assigned to himHi david,
So it is in the context of unforgiveness between the BROTHERS
Mt18
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Quote Hi david,
Torturers are mentioned in scripture.Hey Nick, did you know that back then, Jailers were called tormentors. The word Jailer and the word tormentor are very very similar in Greek, if I remember.
This is because being jailed, or imprisoned was consider torment in itself.Nick…..remember Peter said if my brother came and ask for forgiveness It did not say If he sinned against you and didn't come and ask to forgive Him, You have nothing to forgive about if He doesn't ask for forgiveness,
Some time people think if some one is doing you wrong you go ahead and forgive him anyway.They extend what Peter was talking about to far. I know it says love your enemies and pray for those who despitfully us you, but when some one is sinning aginst you ar some one else we need to deal with it, I am not Saying Hate the person, but deal with the problem is the right thing to do, so peace can be restored. thats what i believe Jesus would want us to handle it anyway.
peace……gene
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