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Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,11:43) Gene..ok..lemme respond True, God did predict the course of certain individuals, such as Jacob and Esau. But this was not predestination. In the case of Esau and Jacob, God simply foreknew which of the national groups descending from them would gain dominance over the other. However, there is no indication that God had fixed their eternal destinies. Much of a child’s general disposition and temperament appear to be shaped by genetic factors. Jehovah may have considered the genetic makeup of unborn Esau and Jacob in determining which son would dominate.—Compare Psalm 139:14-16.
Similarly, Jehovah used his foreknowledge regarding Samson, Jeremiah and John the Baptizer. This foreknowledge, however, did not guarantee that they would remain faithful until death. God also foretold that one of David’s sons would be named Solomon and that Solomon would be used to build the temple. (1 Chronicles 22:9, 10) Solomon, nevertheless, fell into apostasy in his later years.—1 Kings 11:4, 9-13.
You mentioned Judas Iscariot did you not. Was not the traitorous course of one of Jesus’ disciples clearly prophesied in advance you say? Yes, but the prophecies did not specify which disciple would be the betrayer. Indeed, what if Jesus had known that Judas would be the betrayer? Then Jesus’ appointing Judas as an apostle would have made Him a “sharer” in that betrayer’s sins. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22.) God himself would also be an accomplice, since Jesus preceded his selection of Judas with fervent prayer to Jehovah.—Luke 6:12-16.
He knew that Satan the Devil had previously used a man’s close friend as a betrayer, as he had done in the case of David’s friend Ahithophel. Therefore, it was Satan, not God, who “put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray” Jesus Christ. (John 13:2; 2 Samuel 15:31) Rather than resisting satanic influence, Judas allowed sin to gain the mastery over him. And at some point Jesus was able to read Judas’ heart and therefore foretell his betrayal. (John 13:10, 11) Thus Jesus knew of Judas’ betrayal “from the beginning”—not of his acquaintance with Judas, but from the “beginning” of that one’s acting treacherously.—John 6:64.
The apostle Paul told fellow anointed Christians: “We were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels.” (Ephesians 1:11) Since man’s fall into sin, it has been God’s purpose to vindicate His name by means of His Kingdom. To that end, God has at times used his ability to foresee the future. For instance, he foreordained that there would be a people who would be joint heirs with Jesus Christ in the Kingdom, although individuals must prove faithful to be part of it.—2 Peter 1:10, 11.
If this doctrine were true, it would mean that God foreknew all that would result from his creating man—the deflection of Adam and Eve, the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. By speaking the words, “Let us make man,” then, God deliberately would have been setting all this wickedness in motion
God’s placing before Adam and Eve the prospect of everlasting life would, therefore, have been a sham. So would the Bible’s invitation, “Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Revelation 22:17.
Matthew 22:14- 14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
: “You know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, as a ransom that you were released from your fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from your forefathers. But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s.” (1 Pet. 1:18, 19, NW; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:12; Rev. 5:9) With his blood Christ buys them and they become his. He is their owner. To them it is written: “You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price.” (1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 7:23, NW) According to predestinarian teaching, if Christ has redeemed them, released them, purchased them, become their owner, they could never fall away. But the Bible says they can, and some do: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”—2 Pet. 2:1-3, NW.
Gene…same thoughts…explain these scriptures in the context of your beliefs…don't just say…Oh you are wrong..look at this scripture…You are ducking and dodging…
DK…….lets take the part of where you quote where Moses said to the childern of Israel ” I call heaven and earth to witness against you today< I have put life and death before you, the blessings and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your desendents may live, by loving the lord your God, by heeding his injunctions and holding fast to Him; for that will mean life to you.
First of all a call for whitness did not mean God had intervined in their Hearts
or minds The carnal mind is capable of choices but those choices are caused by there Carnal mind in fact they continually made choices some good and then bad the same way that carnal minds today . Those people were never converted by God so they would naturally fall away from him .But what your doing is comparing that with a person who has God working in Him, you can't compare the two there not the same. Why, Because” GOD works in us to (WILL) and do His good pleasure. Those who fall away while they may be called as many are , But they were not chosen by God or Foreordained either by Him at this time. ” For the calling of God is without revocation”, and again “He that began a work in you will see it to completion”and again “He that's in you is greater then He thats in the world, and again ” don't rejoice that the spirits are subject unto you but rejoice that your manes are written in Heaven”, They were seals to their destiny and none failed except for the one predestined to fail.
DK……believe me if you can see these things, you confidence in our Heavenly Father will grow Brother.
Peace to you and yours……….gene
To think God set out to save some one but can't seem to do it is saying God is a failure.
DK……if you get time go to where Moses was complaining about having to baby sit the Israelites and said it was just to much for him and read what God did to help Moses out with the seventy Elders How putting the Spirit that was on Moses on them and read what happened, and what Moses said to the one who was complaining about Adad and Medad prophesying in the camp.
And also when God said O that thee were such a Heart in them. You see without God causing our choices we would never make the right ones on our own. WE have to be guided by His spirit in order to make right choices.
Peace brother hoped this helped…………….gene
Gene..you say i gave you an example someone who had not been called by Gods will…look again at waht I just posted..
Quote Gene..ok..lemme respond True, God did predict the course of certain individuals, such as Jacob and Esau. But this was not predestination. In the case of Esau and Jacob, God simply foreknew which of the national groups descending from them would gain dominance over the other. However, there is no indication that God had fixed their eternal destinies. Much of a child’s general disposition and temperament appear to be shaped by genetic factors. Jehovah may have considered the genetic makeup of unborn Esau and Jacob in determining which son would dominate.—Compare Psalm 139:14-16.
Similarly, Jehovah used his foreknowledge regarding Samson, Jeremiah and John the Baptizer. This foreknowledge, however, did not guarantee that they would remain faithful until death. God also foretold that one of David’s sons would be named Solomon and that Solomon would be used to build the temple. (1 Chronicles 22:9, 10) Solomon, nevertheless, fell into apostasy in his later years.—1 Kings 11:4, 9-13.
You mentioned Judas Iscariot did you not. Was not the traitorous course of one of Jesus’ disciples clearly prophesied in advance you say? Yes, but the prophecies did not specify which disciple would be the betrayer. Indeed, what if Jesus had known that Judas would be the betrayer? Then Jesus’ appointing Judas as an apostle would have made Him a “sharer” in that betrayer’s sins. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22.) God himself would also be an accomplice, since Jesus preceded his selection of Judas with fervent prayer to Jehovah.—Luke 6:12-16.
He knew that Satan the Devil had previously used a man’s close friend as a betrayer, as he had done in the case of David’s friend Ahithophel. Therefore, it was Satan, not God, who “put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray” Jesus Christ. (John 13:2; 2 Samuel 15:31) Rather than resisting satanic influence, Judas allowed sin to gain the mastery over him. And at some point Jesus was able to read Judas’ heart and therefore foretell his betrayal. (John 13:10, 11) Thus Jesus knew of Judas’ betrayal “from the beginning”—not of his acquaintance with Judas, but from the “beginning” of that one’s acting treacherously.—John 6:64.
The apostle Paul told fellow anointed Christians: “We were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels.” (Ephesians 1:11) Since man’s fall into sin, it has been God’s purpose to vindicate His name by means of His Kingdom. To that end, God has at times used his ability to foresee the future. For instance, he foreordained that there would be a people who would be joint heirs with Jesus Christ in the Kingdom, although individuals must prove faithful to be part of it.—2 Peter 1:10, 11.
If this doctrine were true, it would mean that God foreknew all that would result from his creating man—the deflection of Adam and Eve, the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. By speaking the words, “Let us make man,” then, God deliberately would have been setting all this wickedness in motion
God’s placing before Adam and Eve the prospect of everlasting life would, therefore, have been a sham. So would the Bible’s invitation, “Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Revelation 22:17.
Matthew 22:14- 14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
: “You know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, as a ransom that you were released from your fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from your forefathers. But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s.” (1 Pet. 1:18, 19, NW; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:12; Rev. 5:9) With his blood Christ buys them and they become his. He is their owner. To them it is written: “You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price.” (1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 7:23, NW) According to predestinarian teaching, if Christ has redeemed them, released them, purchased them, become their owner, they could never fall away. But the Bible says they can, and some do: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”—2 Pet. 2:1-3, NW.
Notice the later half of the post where I refer to the NT
Here are your examples of people CALLED BY GODS WILL BUT YET STILL TURNED AWAY
Gene…I am enjoying this by the way…I understand what you are saying…Honestly what we are saying quite similar things…
You say once God calls you into or thru his will…it is not possible to fail (correct if i'm wrong)
I say If you follow God by “believing in faith” and “living in Christ”..both things which are of his will for us…yes you have the choice to turn back, “like a dog to its vomit”….but if you follow his will for you..you will not fail…
Rather similar..I think…same results…different semantics..maybe ?
Hi DK, again you are confused free will with choices. Choices are limited and they are influenced but not the free will which God the creator only possesses.
Thats basically what you and Gene are saying? If once called I can't turn away…then he has imposed his will…there is no choice…not that I would want to turn away..
GM…How would GOD know if we were really going to be faithful, if once he called us he did not allow us to prove our faith…Think about JOB…and the questions that Satan raised to GOD concerning JOB…if what you and Gene say is true…Satans questioning GOD as to if Job would remain faithful would be pointless…the devil knows the scriptures too GM
DK…..I gave you clear scriptures that show God, causes our change from start to finish. If you want to persist in what your trying to get across you need to address these scriptures.
I am not saying once call you cant turn away, many are called but (FEW) chosen , When a person is chosen by God He will not turn away. The call of God goes out to everyone, when Jesus was preaching many heard the call, but only a few were Chosen by God to understand what was being said. Those chosen are called the elect of God. Because God gets into the mind of that person and guides His thought so through that process He is caused to go in the direction God is leading Him.
Here is a good example of God who God does it, remember when Jesus said to the disciples “who do they say i am, and Peter responded you are the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus responded, Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal that unto you (remember Jesus was flesh and blood) but my Father who is in Heaven has revealed unto you, and i say unto you, you are Peter and upon (THIS ROCK) i will buld the church and the gates of hell shall not prevail aganist it,
Let's analize this , Jesus plainly told Peter God the Father (who was in Heaven) revealed that to Him, and what did that revelation (CAUSE) him to do , acknowledge who Jesus really was. Point, God can get in your head and give you understanding which will naturally cause you to respond and that the (POWER) that builds the true church. Do you see might build the church in what He said.
DK…answer me this is God the potter and we the clay, can He mold the clay the way He wants to?. consider this” the carnal mind (thats he one we are all born with) (IS) an enemy of God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN BE.” so if that scripture is right, no man will choose to ever obey God on His own. Then in another place God says, (I) will take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart of flesh (soft heart)”. where do you see if they decide to choose my way on there own, as free will would demand. and again it says, “For it is God who works in you to (BOTH) WILL and do (HIS) pleasure”. where does it say only if you let him?.
God the Father is in control of (ALL THINGS) and that leaves nothing out, He is in total control of our salvation from start to finish. If you take all the scriptures i have quoted here and else where, you will see what i mean and i think you will agree also.
peace to you and yours.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 06 2008,13:52) DK…..I gave you clear scriptures that show God, causes our change from start to finish. If you want to persist in what your trying to get across you need to address these scriptures. I am not saying once call you cant turn away, many are called but (FEW) chosen , When a person is chosen by God He will not turn away. The call of God goes out to everyone, when Jesus was preaching many heard the call, but only a few were Chosen by God to understand what was being said. Those chosen are called the elect of God. Because God gets into the mind of that person and guides His thought so through that process He is caused to go in the direction God is leading Him.
Here is a good example of God who God does it, remember when Jesus said to the disciples “who do they say i am, and Peter responded you are the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus responded, Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal that unto you (remember Jesus was flesh and blood) but my Father who is in Heaven has revealed unto you, and i say unto you, you are Peter and upon (THIS ROCK) i will buld the church and the gates of hell shall not prevail aganist it,
Let's analize this , Jesus plainly told Peter God the Father (who was in Heaven) revealed that to Him, and what did that revelation (CAUSE) him to do , acknowledge who Jesus really was. Point, God can get in your head and give you understanding which will naturally cause you to respond and that the (POWER) that builds the true church. Do you see might build the church in what He said.
DK…answer me this is God the potter and we the clay, can He mold the clay the way He wants to?. consider this” the carnal mind (thats he one we are all born with) (IS) an enemy of God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN BE.” so if that scripture is right, no man will choose to ever obey God on His own. Then in another place God says, (I) will take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart of flesh (soft heart)”. where do you see if they decide to choose my way on there own, as free will would demand. and again it says, “For it is God who works in you to (BOTH) WILL and do (HIS) pleasure”. where does it say only if you let him?.
God the Father is in control of (ALL THINGS) and that leaves nothing out, He is in total control of our salvation from start to finish. If you take all the scriptures i have quoted here and else where, you will see what i mean and i think you will agree also.
peace to you and yours.
But Gene I just gave you examples of people who were “born again in spirit” and who turned away..notice my post..The potter/ clay scripture while beautiful..does nothing more than show what God wants to do to us…
Alexander and Hymanaeus….were once molded by god…and looked what they CHOSE to do
DK……i disagree it doesn't show what God (want) to Do it shows what God can and does do. Where does it say Alexander and Hymanaeaus were ever really converted, May people then and today think they are, but that doesn't mean they are.
1Tim1:18..> having faith and a good conscience, which some having (rejected) does it say why they rejected these things could it be they never had them in the beginning, Its oblivious they didn't have the faith and a good conscience and so they ship wrecked as anyone anyone would do if the didn't have faith and a good conscience toward God.
This does not prove they ever were truly converted and lost their conversion.
peace and please try to answer the scripture i gave you.
blessings ……………….gene
They were part of the body of Christ…If they were not…Paul would not have told them to take the action that he did against them…if they were just associates, he would have told the congregation to view them in the light of 1 Cor 15:33
I assume you ar referring to the scripture you mentioned with Peter and Jesus..
Again I think you mistake God's and jesus ability to foreknow some selected things and confuse that with Predestination…
Again..look at the examples of Job and Jesus…if there was no Free will…why would the devil even try to break their faith? He knows the scriptures and what God is capable of just as well as us…but the reason who even attempted was because like Adam and Eve he knew they had a CHOICE…
Again I ask whats the point of a scripture like this if we have no choice once chosen:
1 Peter 1:6,7 (niv)- 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Look who is being addressed here. Are not the people he's addressing ALREADY chosen by your definition? Then why do they need to prove their faith?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 05 2008,17:02) ” For the calling of God is without revocation”, and again “He that began a work in you will see it to completion”and again “He that's in you is greater then He thats in the world, and again ” don't rejoice that the spirits are subject unto you but rejoice that your manes are written in Heaven”
Or maybe you are referring to these?True… Only God can take away your calling…and he will if you CHOOSE to follow satan…
Have faith that God can will make you a “new creation
His spirit is stronger than ours…
God's “book of life” is being referenced here..and as the bible states abou that book…names can be deleted
DK…….How are they chosen by my definition, please explain.
please explain, and please address the scriptures i gave you.
Hey Brother Gene…
Which scriptures…i'm not ignoring you
sorry if i'm a little slow today… today was one of those “life sucks…I'm glad I have God” type of days“Many are called…few are chosen”…
The men that I mentioned were anointed baptized in spirit men in the Christian congregation…so by your defintion chosen thru God's will for them
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 06 2008,15:17) I assume you ar referring to the scripture you mentioned with Peter and Jesus.. Again I think you mistake God's and jesus ability to foreknow some selected things and confuse that with Predestination…
Again..look at the examples of Job and Jesus…if there was no Free will…why would the devil even try to break their faith? He knows the scriptures and what God is capable of just as well as us…but the reason who even attempted was because like Adam and Eve he knew they had a CHOICE…
Again I ask whats the point of a scripture like this if we have no choice once chosen:
1 Peter 1:6,7 (niv)- 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Look who is being addressed here. Are not the people he's addressing ALREADY chosen by your definition? Then why do they need to prove their faith?
The same people I mentioned here..who you are referring to..are the same ones mentioned here:1 Peter 5:10 (amp)- 10And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace [Who imparts all blessing and favor], Who has called you to His [own] eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will Himself complete and make you what you ought to be, establish and ground you securely, and strengthen, and settle you.
DK….. 1Peter is truly talking to people God is involved in, which proves my point.
But to assume all those who came and were baptized received God's spirit and were truly chosen is mistake, because many are called but (FEW) chosen. A lot of people who went along with the early church were not even called of God they just joined the movement so to speak as they do today also.Paul also proved this point hen he gave the thing about God being the potter and we the Clay, didn't he say what if God wanting to show he had mercy created vessels of mercy and what if he wanted to show he has wrath created vessels of wrath , the he said “you would say then why does he find fault then , and what was his answer “who are you “O” man who replies t against God, does not the potter have power over the clay to do as he see fit.
DK…….if you can come to see the absolute total control that God has over everything You will find rest and great peace in your life. He' not willing that non parish and non will either. Not because of who they are , but becaues who He is.
Peace to you…………gene
Amen to that post my brother Gene.
Hi DK, how long you want to argue on this free will, see the examples you quoted they wanted to use their so called free wills and lost the grace of God. Why you want to follow them better follow good examples like peter,Paul and other apostles who submitted their wills to the creator God and rested in Him.
May God open your understanding to His perfect will.
Adam
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