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DK……your understanding of what Free WILL is wrong, If someone is influencing you and you don't do it, it because whats in you is greater then that influence . And you present the case of your will is Greater then Gods will in you.
But what does scripture say, ” for he who began a work in you will complete it, and again For He (God) work in you both to (WILL) and do His good Pleasure, and again for he thats in you is greater then He thats in the world. And name one person in the bible that failed to do what God destined them to do , even Judas was destined to do what he did. If it was a matter of free will why did Jesus say to his Disciples you did not choose me, he chose them.
and none failed except Judas because it was his destine too.Your religion is one of living in fear of failure because you don't think God is able to do what he said He could do in you, You are in disbelief of His power, Jesus said He didn't loose one who God brought to Him except the one destined for failure. Where was individual so called (FREE WILL) in them then.
Your logic fails anyway you look at it, but i will give you that nearly all (Christendom) views it the way you do. They don't want Gods authority over them nor do they realize how powerful and sovereign God is in all things.
And your wrong assuming God doesn't make choices for us, He not only makes them He causes us to will to do His choices, Or how could he transform us then if He did not do these things. He is the Potter we are the clay and the Potter has total power over the Clay in all things, I know the Carnal Mind Hates the sound of that but non the less it is true.
“We are His (GOD”S) workmanship, created unto good works”. I don't see except if we want to or not in there do you.?
Free Will Ideology is one of the worst teaching in Christianity, it breaks down the SOVEREIGNTY of the one and Only True God. And is pure Heresy . If you understood that every thing is working in the plan and will of One God then you would gain confidence in and about life. There is only One who has (FREE WILL) and that the creator of all WILL'S. And he WORKS in us to WILL. That is if He is in you.
Peace to you………..gene
Hey come on DK you can not make choice as free will which will not be influenced by anybody or any thing which only God the creator have. Again I caution you whoever wanted to use their so called free will failed miserably. The examples you gave are for negative results because there is no such thing called free will given to creatures.
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 05 2008,03:37) DK……your understanding of what Free WILL is wrong, If someone is influencing you and you don't do it, it because whats in you is greater then that influence . And you present the case of your will is Greater then Gods will in you. But what does scripture say, ” for he who began a work in you will complete it, and again For He (God) work in you both to (WILL) and do His good Pleasure, and again for he thats in you is greater then He thats in the world. And name one person in the bible that failed to do what God destined them to do , even Judas was destined to do what he did. If it was a matter of free will why did Jesus say to his Disciples you did not choose me, he chose them.
and none failed except Judas because it was his destine too.Your religion is one of living in fear of failure because you don't think God is able to do what he said He could do in you, You are in disbelief of His power, Jesus said He didn't loose one who God brought to Him except the one destined for failure. Where was individual so called (FREE WILL) in them then.
Your logic fails anyway you look at it, but i will give you that nearly all (Christendom) views it the way you do. They don't want Gods authority over them nor do they realize how powerful and sovereign God is in all things.
And your wrong assuming God doesn't make choices for us, He not only makes them He causes us to will to do His choices, Or how could he transform us then if He did not do these things. He is the Potter we are the clay and the Potter has total power over the Clay in all things, I know the Carnal Mind Hates the sound of that but non the less it is true.
“We are His (GOD”S) workmanship, created unto good works”. I don't see except if we want to or not in there do you.?
Free Will Ideology is one of the worst teaching in Christianity, it breaks down the SOVEREIGNTY of the one and Only True God. And is pure Heresy . If you understood that every thing is working in the plan and will of One God then you would gain confidence in and about life. There is only One who has (FREE WILL) and that the creator of all WILL'S. And he WORKS in us to WILL. That is if He is in you.
Peace to you………..gene
Gene..GM….Again…you assume that my comments deny the power God has over my life…
Again…He called..I Responded…I did not HAVE to…
But I humble myself and allow myself to made over by the redeeming power of his spirit…once I do that, I then Allow God to “drive the car” and I watch as he takes me down the road that he wants me to follow…
At any time I can say, “God I don't want you to drive anymore”..but we all know that with me driving that will lead to disaster…
So as you see I allow God to envelope my very being…by me saying “I allow” I am not being haughty or disregarding his power…rather….I am humbling myself under the mighty hand of the lord…
You posed the question, “Name one person who faled to do what God destined him to do?”…I say just refer back to the scriptures I posted…You say once God calls you..you can no longer fail..I say thats true if you “believe in faith” and “live in christ”…but I posted up a plethora of scriptures that show people who were called by God…BUT YET TURNED AWAY…
For example Hymanaeus and Alexander..or what about the brother mentioned at 1 Cor 5:1-12 who Paul later said to welcome back into the congregation as your “brother”..
Remember, the bible talks about, “those who went out from us because they were not of our sort”
Notice where they went out from…
Gene..show me where the bible talks about each individuals destiny..and then we can discuss..
I.e. Show me where the bible speaks on the destinies of Rahab, Mannasa, Rachel, Dorcas, Nebuchadrezzar, and so on…you can't speak on each individual “destinies” unless you are God or that Person…
Dk……….the bible speaks about a lot of destines . Lets take Cyrus for example God not only named Him but also told in detain what He would Do. What about King David didn't he say God even had His word put in Him before He was ever Born. Let look at Jeremiah 1:4-5 …> “then the word of the Lord came to me saying; before (I) formed you in the womb”, (how about that another person formed in the womb by God like Jesus was), ” I knew you Before you were born I sanctified , You ; I ordained you a prophet to the nations”.
Please tell me where is so called (FREE WILL) in that statement .
And did you notice another person (FOREORDAINED) does that remind you of something , the Apostle PETER Said about Jesus being Foreordained before the Foundations but was manifested in His time. Jeremiah was Manifested (brought forth) in the time of Josiah King of Judah. But he was called and formed in the womb. before he was born.
Again back to the point where is (FREE WILL) at here then, Christendom does not want to believe in the (Absolute SOVEREIGNTY) of God Period. Another false teaching of the trinitarians and others. If you want i can give you a lot more examples the bible is full of them.
God is in control every facet of everything, that is a basic tenet without which you can't even begin to understand things as they should be. It says He even Frames Evil, did you know that.
The only reason your not a rapist of little children is because you weren't, by the grace of God framed that way, Have you ever heard the saying < but for the grace of God there go I. If you were born and raised and had the exact input in you mind you would do the exact same thing they do.
But God prevented you from that kind of evil, but He allowed you to do other types of evil as he has with all of Us. In the end every mouth will be closed, and no one will condemn another. How can you seeing a person is caused to do what he does. Again cause and effect, and righteousness is caused and the effect is salvation all done by ONE GOD the Father Himself, “that God may be all and in all”.
peace to you…………gene
Awww…I think I get it now….
You are confusing Gods ability to foreknow somethings with destiny…ok…be right back
Blessings
P.S. For the record..Gene..Golla…Not3in1…Nick…Seek…Isa 1:18..David .and everyone else I have communicated with… I am thoroughly enjoying the conversations we all are having…I think you all are blessing to the world…and pray for your continued presence in my life…
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 04 2008,14:08) seekingtruth……..yes they are choices, but the subject is are they free choices or influenced choices , they are influenced choices therefore they are not (FREE). there is no such thing as Free Will or Free Choices there all caused and effects. peace to you……………gene
Gene,
Do you believe in under duress choice? I agree there are many influences but I maintain that I'm “free” to make the choice, it is not made for me.Wm
Gene..ok..lemme respond
True, God did predict the course of certain individuals, such as Jacob and Esau. But this was not predestination. In the case of Esau and Jacob, God simply foreknew which of the national groups descending from them would gain dominance over the other. However, there is no indication that God had fixed their eternal destinies. Much of a child’s general disposition and temperament appear to be shaped by genetic factors. Jehovah may have considered the genetic makeup of unborn Esau and Jacob in determining which son would dominate.—Compare Psalm 139:14-16.
Similarly, Jehovah used his foreknowledge regarding Samson, Jeremiah and John the Baptizer. This foreknowledge, however, did not guarantee that they would remain faithful until death. God also foretold that one of David’s sons would be named Solomon and that Solomon would be used to build the temple. (1 Chronicles 22:9, 10) Solomon, nevertheless, fell into apostasy in his later years.—1 Kings 11:4, 9-13.
You mentioned Judas Iscariot did you not. Was not the traitorous course of one of Jesus’ disciples clearly prophesied in advance you say? Yes, but the prophecies did not specify which disciple would be the betrayer. Indeed, what if Jesus had known that Judas would be the betrayer? Then Jesus’ appointing Judas as an apostle would have made Him a “sharer” in that betrayer’s sins. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22.) God himself would also be an accomplice, since Jesus preceded his selection of Judas with fervent prayer to Jehovah.—Luke 6:12-16.
He knew that Satan the Devil had previously used a man’s close friend as a betrayer, as he had done in the case of David’s friend Ahithophel. Therefore, it was Satan, not God, who “put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray” Jesus Christ. (John 13:2; 2 Samuel 15:31) Rather than resisting satanic influence, Judas allowed sin to gain the mastery over him. And at some point Jesus was able to read Judas’ heart and therefore foretell his betrayal. (John 13:10, 11) Thus Jesus knew of Judas’ betrayal “from the beginning”—not of his acquaintance with Judas, but from the “beginning” of that one’s acting treacherously.—John 6:64.
The apostle Paul told fellow anointed Christians: “We were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels.” (Ephesians 1:11) Since man’s fall into sin, it has been God’s purpose to vindicate His name by means of His Kingdom. To that end, God has at times used his ability to foresee the future. For instance, he foreordained that there would be a people who would be joint heirs with Jesus Christ in the Kingdom, although individuals must prove faithful to be part of it.—2 Peter 1:10, 11.
If this doctrine were true, it would mean that God foreknew all that would result from his creating man—the deflection of Adam and Eve, the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. By speaking the words, “Let us make man,” then, God deliberately would have been setting all this wickedness in motion
God’s placing before Adam and Eve the prospect of everlasting life would, therefore, have been a sham. So would the Bible’s invitation, “Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Revelation 22:17.
Matthew 22:14- 14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
: “You know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, as a ransom that you were released from your fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from your forefathers. But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s.” (1 Pet. 1:18, 19, NW; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:12; Rev. 5:9) With his blood Christ buys them and they become his. He is their owner. To them it is written: “You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price.” (1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 7:23, NW) According to predestinarian teaching, if Christ has redeemed them, released them, purchased them, become their owner, they could never fall away. But the Bible says they can, and some do: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”—2 Pet. 2:1-3, NW.
Hi DK,
How big was Athens when Paul went there?
How many heard the gospel?
How many responded?How many lepers were in Israel when Elsiha healed Naaman the Syrian?
We all need to seek the will of God.
therin is safety.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2008,11:47) Hi DK,
How big was Athens when Paul went there?
How many heard the gospel?
How many responded?How many lepers were in Israel when Elsiha healed Naaman the Syrian?
We all need to seek the will of God.
therin is safety.
Hey Nick…I'm lost as to the purpose of those questions
Hi DK,
God's will is done despite the hopes of men.
We need to be onside with His will.
Our choices are not full ones.
But they are our choices.Hi Nick…
I agree…completely..as to those questions
I know there were approx- 180 million in the roman empire at that time…
I need to research..but naaman had to bathe 7 times in the Jordan correct? Gehazi Elisha's servant got greedy and God made him a leper right? Thats about all I remember…
Luke mentions the Athenians and says that they 'spent their time in nothing”
seekingtruth……..The choices you make were acquired before and were all ready in you, you simply react from the most persuasive one that all.
Let me give you an example, please understand i am not saying we are exactly like the examples i will give you but in many way we are but far more advanced.
Let's say you were the maker of a computer, now that computer would only act in accordance with the programs in putted in it. If filthy programs were installed it, it would give out those programs, If good programs were installed good programs would come out of it. You could say that man is like a computer, when he is born he has almost no programming in Him. but like a computer he has the capacity to store information and if he is exposed only to whats bad he will act accordingly. This has been proved many times over by psychologists . Even Sex murders have admitted they started out reading sex magazines and progress into violent sex reading and so forth until it completely took over their entire thinking and they began to act out what had being installed in them by these filthy books.
But if he has had good training he will react that way also, thats why it says “(train)up a child in the way he should go and when he's old he will not depart”.
God can and often does take out the wrong programming in us and reinstall good programming. this is what it means where God says, “i will take out from you the stony heart and give you a Heart of Flesh (soft heart). God can do that because He is the Master programmer. He controls all knowledge and understanding there is.
He exposes us to all the good and evil which he created for imputing into us understanding so we can learn to love the good and hate the evil. Didn't Jesus say “YOU shall ALL be taught BY GOD. We are being created and molded into a image of God by GOD
Non of this has anything to do with (FREE WILL).
Peace to you seekingtruth………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 05 2008,12:02) seekingtruth……..The choices you make were acquired before and were all ready in you, you simply react from the most persuasive one that all.
Acquired before what?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 05 2008,12:02) seekingtruth……..The choices you make were acquired before and were all ready in you, you simply react from the most persuasive one that all. Let me give you an example, please understand i am not saying we are exactly like the examples i will give you but in many way we are but far more advanced.
Let's say you were the maker of a computer, now that computer would only act in accordance with the programs in putted in it. If filthy programs were installed it, it would give out those programs, If good programs were installed good programs would come out of it. You could say that man is like a computer, when he is born he has almost no programming in Him. but like a computer he has the capacity to store information and if he is exposed only to whats bad he will act accordingly. This has been proved many times over by psychologists . Even Sex murders have admitted they started out reading sex magazines and progress into violent sex reading and so forth until it completely took over their entire thinking and they began to act out what had being installed in them by these filthy books.
But if he has had good training he will react that way also, thats why it says “(train)up a child in the way he should go and when he's old he will not depart”.
God can and often does take out the wrong programming in us and reinstall good programming. this is what it means where God says, “i will take out from you the stony heart and give you a Heart of Flesh (soft heart). God can do that because He is the Master programmer. He controls all knowledge and understanding there is.
He exposes us to all the good and evil which he created for imputing into us understanding so we can learn to love the good and hate the evil. Didn't Jesus say “YOU shall ALL be taught BY GOD. We are being created and molded into a image of God by GOD
Non of this has anything to do with (FREE WILL).
Peace to you seekingtruth………………gene
Hi GB,
Grace is all.
We are all born wrongly programmed.
Jas 1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 05 2008,09:30) Dk……….the bible speaks about a lot of destines . Lets take Cyrus for example God not only named Him but also told in detain what He would Do. What about King David didn't he say God even had His word put in Him before He was ever Born. Let look at Jeremiah 1:4-5 …> “then the word of the Lord came to me saying; before (I) formed you in the womb”, (how about that another person formed in the womb by God like Jesus was), ” I knew you Before you were born I sanctified , You ; I ordained you a prophet to the nations”. Please tell me where is so called (FREE WILL) in that statement .
And did you notice another person (FOREORDAINED) does that remind you of something , the Apostle PETER Said about Jesus being Foreordained before the Foundations but was manifested in His time. Jeremiah was Manifested (brought forth) in the time of Josiah King of Judah. But he was called and formed in the womb. before he was born.
Again back to the point where is (FREE WILL) at here then, Christendom does not want to believe in the (Absolute SOVEREIGNTY) of God Period. Another false teaching of the trinitarians and others. If you want i can give you a lot more examples the bible is full of them.
God is in control every facet of everything, that is a basic tenet without which you can't even begin to understand things as they should be. It says He even Frames Evil, did you know that.
The only reason your not a rapist of little children is because you weren't, by the grace of God framed that way, Have you ever heard the saying < but for the grace of God there go I. If you were born and raised and had the exact input in you mind you would do the exact same thing they do.
But God prevented you from that kind of evil, but He allowed you to do other types of evil as he has with all of Us. In the end every mouth will be closed, and no one will condemn another. How can you seeing a person is caused to do what he does. Again cause and effect, and righteousness is caused and the effect is salvation all done by ONE GOD the Father Himself, “that God may be all and in all”.
peace to you…………gene
That's another wonderful post my brother,Gene. It really strengthened me to orient myself towards the perfect will of God our Father.
Thank you very much for all your posts on free will
AdamNick ……what do you mean we are born wrongly programed. where is scripture for that statement. Your wrong again, we are born neutral and we come into a world infected with evil and it infects us. A baby is not a sinner he or she becomes one, how by acquiring evil through exposure .
In John we read ” for all thats in the world , the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life are (FROM THE WORLD)”. So where do we receive it (FROM THE WORLD), we were not born sinners we became sinners. That whole false teaching of born a sinner is a lie. While sin entered the world through Adam it was passed on to the rest of man kind through exposure.
Much like a virus , once contact is made we become infected with it. And unless we have the antidote it will overtake us and kill us. The antidote is the HOLY SPIRIT and if we have it in us it will begin to kill the virus out of our lives. Jesus was never infected with sin because He had been vaccinated the spirit at berth. And therefore the virus could not take him over. And when we receive the vaccine (HOLY SPIRIT) It begins to kill this sin virus.
Nick… this is just a analogy of how (i) think sin works . While God gave us all carnal minds that could be easily become infected with sin, to say we were born sinners would go against one of the lessons of what God is teaching us. Man could ultimately say God caused us to sin then. It is true that man was born with a propensity for sin but a propensity for sin doesen't mean he was born a sinner though.
IMO….gene
IMO……….gene
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,14:10) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 05 2008,12:02) seekingtruth……..The choices you make were acquired before and were all ready in you, you simply react from the most persuasive one that all.
Acquired before what?
DK……> acquired before you made the choice. Every thing you choose is caused by whats in you already. And as you acquire new in puts your choice can and most likely will change. And if that in put is from God you will become Godly.peace to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 05 2008,15:13) Nick ……what do you mean we are born wrongly programed. where is scripture for that statement. Your wrong again, we are born neutral and we come into a world infected with evil and it infects us. A baby is not a sinner he or she becomes one, how by acquiring evil through exposure . In John we read ” for all thats in the world , the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life are (FROM THE WORLD)”. So where do we receive it (FROM THE WORLD), we were not born sinners we became sinners. That whole false teaching of born a sinner is a lie. While sin entered the world through Adam it was passed on to the rest of man kind through exposure.
Much like a virus , once contact is made we become infected with it. And unless we have the antidote it will overtake us and kill us. The antidote is the HOLY SPIRIT and if we have it in us it will begin to kill the virus out of our lives. Jesus was never infected with sin because He had been vaccinated the spirit at berth. And therefore the virus could not take him over. And when we receive the vaccine (HOLY SPIRIT) It begins to kill this sin virus.
Nick… this is just a analogy of how (i) think sin works . While God gave us all carnal minds that could be easily become infected with sin, to say we were born sinners would go against one of the lessons of what God is teaching us. Man could ultimately say God caused us to sin then. It is true that man was born with a propensity for sin but a propensity for sin doesen't mean he was born a sinner though.
IMO….gene
IMO……….gene
Gene…sorry brother…You deny scripture…respond to the scriptures Nick and myself have posted…I notice you have a tendancy to ignore the scriptures we post… make a few random comments and then post one of the same 5 scriptures commonly misinterpreted toward your beliefs…comment on Nick's scripture…explain why it doesn't fit with your beliefs..
Blessings
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,01:55) Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,01:26) Hi DK,
You have given the right examples of those who used their free wills than that of God's, that's why they failed.
If we also believe that we can use our free wills than God's then there it is utter confusion and failure. This is the reason behind Jesus' saying of “not my will but my father's”. I am saved not by my free will but because my Father God has drawn(dragged) me towards Him according to His free will. You are simply forgetting that we are vessles(pots) not the potter. God is the potter who makes this vessle according to His free will. You don't have your free will in that. God has created the tree of both good and evil. There is always a design in every thing as per God's plan. See paul's woes in Rom 7, he was not able do what he wanted to do, because there is always a program in our body that is the nature of sin and now God has installed another nature of Spirit. Our choices are limited to these already installed programmes. Making choice is not free will at all when they are influenced by certain programmes. If we choose God's will we will be on right track or if you want prove you have free will like God then gone case like the examples you gave.
Peace to you
Adam
Hey…GMLook again…I gave you examples of people who GOD HAD CALLED…and WHO WERE FOLLOWING GODS PLAN…and then who TURNED AWAY…
The fact that they could turn away AFTER they were called shows that they have free will…
Remember its a difference between somethign “influencing” your choices..i.e. socioeconomic conditions…and something making those choices for you…you can be influenced to do something and still NOT DO IT…
Influences dont make choices..people do…
notice these scriptures…what do you think they mean ?
If God hadthus chosen man’s destiny before birth, rendering any future choice by man empty, Moses would never have been inspired to say to Israel: “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your descendants may live, by loving the LORD your God, by heeding his injunctions, and by holding fast to him; for that will mean life to you.” (Deut. 30:19, 20)
Nor would Joshua have said: “If you find it obnoxious to serve the LORD, choose today whom you will serve, either the gods whom your fathers served who are beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh. 24:15)
GOD here says: ‘Warn them from me. Let him hear who will, and let him decline to hear who will. Have I any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, and not rather in this, that he turn from his way and live? Why should you die? I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies. Turn, then, and live!’—Ezek. 3:27; 18:23, 31, 32; 33:7, 11-15,
If you notice these scriptures take place BEFORE GOD started calling people thru the spirit in the fashion he does now…there was no baptism in the spirit yet…there was no “spirit bearing witness with my spirit” yet….those are very important things to consider when reasoning on those scriptures..
Gene…explain why this post is wrong..if you will..again..Focus on the scriptures..explain them in context with your beliefs
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