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Quote To All………….there is no such thing as (FREE WILL) For a Will to be FREE nothing can influence it. All choices are a result of (CAUSE and EFFECT). But when most say “free will” they mean the freedom to follow their will; to not be willed by another. Even if our choices are a result of cause and effect, it is our choice to decide how we will react to those causes.
If we had no free will as people understand and use those words, we would have no choices.
Quote To think that God doesn't know whats going to happen with all of us is pure folly.
Does having the ability to know mean one must always use that ability? I have the ability to find out how a movie is going to end before I even see the movie. Must I always use that ability? To think so is folly, in my opinion.Is everything that has ever happened “the will of God”? Some scriptures that I'd like to consider:
2 Pet. 3:9: “Jehovah . . . is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.”
(Not all respond to his patience. Therefore, it is not “the will of God” when some fail to repent. Compare Revelation 9:20, 21.)Jer. 7:23-26: “This word I did express in command upon them [Israel], saying: ‘Obey my voice, and I will become your God, and you yourselves will become my people; and you must walk in all the way that I shall command you, in order that it may go well with you.’ But they did not listen . . . I kept sending to you all my servants the prophets, daily getting up early and sending them. But they did not listen to me, and they did not incline their ear, but they kept hardening their neck.”
(Obviously, the badness taking place in Israel was not “the will of God.”)Mark 3:35: “Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother and sister and mother.”
(If whatever anyone did was “the will of God,” then everyone would have enjoyed the kind of relationship with Jesus that he there described. But he said to some: “You are from your father the Devil.”—John 8:44.)Does God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain events prove that he does this regarding all the actions of all his creatures?
Rev. 22:17: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”
(The choice is not foreordained; it is left to the individual.)Rom. 2:4, 5: “Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know that the kindly quality of God is trying to lead you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment.”
(There is no forcing of individuals to pursue a prescribed course. But there is accountability for what one does.)Zeph. 2:3: “Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth . . . Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”
(Would a just and loving God encourage people to do what is right, in hope of a reward, if he knew that they were foreordained not to succeed?)The owner of a TV can watch the news. But the fact that he can watch a certain station does not mean that he does. He must first turn on the TV and then select the station. Likewise, Jehovah has the ability to foreknow events, but the Bible shows that he makes selective and discretionary use of that ability, with due regard for the free will with which he has endowed his human creation.—Compare Genesis 22:12; 18:20, 21.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 04 2008,11:24) To All………….there is no such thing as (FREE WILL) For a Will to be FREE nothing can influence it. All choices are a result of (CAUSE and EFFECT). You are caused to choose from what's already in your mind and this is what causes your choices. Free Has nothing to do with it. You can not find (Free Will) mentioned at all in the bible. If God said He new the end from the beginning, why do you think He doesn't Know what our choices are going to be, and He said He is the potter and we are the clay wheres free will in that.
People don't believe in the (SOVEREIGNTY)of ONE GOD> Man can not stand the fact that God is Sovereign in all things. Man want to think He is a God by His owns Free Will because the carnal mind is an enemy of God and Is not Subject to Him or His laws. The carnal mind wants to think it's own Free Choices caused itself to be saved. But the bible plainly shows
that is not true.To think that God doesn't know whats going to happen with all of us is pure folly.
If we believe in a all Knowing all powerful God as most all christains proclaim, then what kind of God would he be if He allowed all this evil when He with His power could stop it all any time He wants to.So to think He did not plan all of this evil in the world and planned it would make Him the most evil and cruel being that could ever exist. There is nothing that just happen to be the way it is, it's all done by design. It's needful that man experience both good and evil and I believe God planned it all from the very beginning.
imo……………gene
Gene,
Semantics? I define “free will” as in the end I make the choices in my life (based on knowledge and desires) I do not believe that God has scripted my life. Now God may “harden” my heart but I do not believe He forces me to do anything but may create factors in my life to to achieve a predictable response.in my opinion – Wm
seeking truth……….all your choices are a result of what has been already installed in your mind. The definition of Free Choice is to choose something without (ANY) influence derived from past association of (any) kind. Because if your were influenced by something the it was not a Free Choice but an influenced choice.
There is no such thing as Free Choice or Free WILL. Very in depth Scientific research has proved that everything is a matter of cause and effect.Scripture shows that God cause salvation and change in our thinking. No where is if found that we have free Wills.
peace to you……………..gene
david……….so in your mind you basically save yourself by your Free Will Decisions, well congratulations to you. But Jesus said no one can come unto me unless the Father drag Him. And I guess where it says the carnal Mind (the one we are born with) is a enemy of God and is not subject to Gods laws neither indeed can be, wasn't true because some can choose by their own free wills to obey Him.
What does this mean then…For I will take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart of flesh (soft heart) an (I) will write my laws in their inward parts. and again the gentiles who have not the laws of God but do the things contained in them show the laws written on their heart (BY) the hand of God. And again (I) am the potter and you are the clay, doesn't really mean that does it.
Lets face the truth people hate the idea that God is Sovereign over every one of us and does what so ever He wants with each of us., with or without our permission.He has never given us permission to be our own Free agents He is the creator of Both Good and Evil .
False Christianity wants people to think they are in control of their destiny's and all who feel that way are simple playing (God ). If you can come to see all the good and evil we see was Gods plan all along to teach us to hate evil and love good, then you will be able to see purpose for all this were going through.
peace to you……………..gene
IMO……………gene
seekingtruth……..yes they are choices, but the subject is are they free choices or influenced choices , they are influenced choices therefore they are not (FREE). there is no such thing as Free Will or Free Choices there all caused and effects.
peace to you……………gene
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 04 2008,14:44) ) Free will was indispensable if humans were to honor and serve God out of love, not as robots with every movement determined beforehand. Love displayed by intelligent, free creatures would enable God to refute unjust accusations. Proverbs 27:11. “Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.”
If God’s servants were predestined—or programmed, so to speak—could not the genuineness of their love for their Creator be called into question? Also, would it not be contrary to God’s impartiality for him to make a predetermined choice of persons destined to glory and happiness without taking their individual merits into account? Moreover, if some receive such preferential treatment, while others are destined to eternal punishment, this would hardly arouse sincere feelings of gratitude in the “elect,” or “chosen ones
Christ told his disciples to preach the good news to all mankind. If God has already chosen the ones to be saved, would this not dampen the zeal Christians show in evangelizing? Would it not make the preaching work essentially pointless?
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says: “Previous to Augustine [of the fourth and fifth centuries C.E.] there was no serious development in Christianity of a theory of predestination.” Before Augustine, earlier so-called “Church Fathers” such as Justin, Origen, and Irenaeus “know nothing of unconditional predestination; they teach free will.” (Hastings’ Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, 1919, Vol. X, p. 231) In their refutation of Gnosticism, they are described as regularly expressing their belief in the free moral agency of man as “the distinguishing characteristic of human personality, the basis of moral responsibility, a divine gift whereby man might choose that which was well-pleasing to God,” and as speaking of “the autonomy of man and the counsel of God who constraineth not.”—The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, edited by S. Jackson, 1957, Vol. IX, pp. 192, 193.
This scripture alone shows that pre destination is not a biblical teaching. Although the bible says we, Christians, ” : “You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price.”
According to predestinarian teaching, if Christ has redeemed them, released them, purchased them, become their owner, they could never fall away. But the Bible says they can, and some do: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”
and notice this…2 Pet. 2:1-3,-“These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”
The apostle Paul writes in similar vein: “It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the right word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6)
If God hadthus chosen man’s destiny before birth, rendering any future choice by man empty, Moses would never have been inspired to say to Israel: “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your descendants may live, by loving the LORD your God, by heeding his injunctions, and by holding fast to him; for that will mean life to you.” (Deut. 30:19, 20)
Nor would Joshua have said: “If you find it obnoxious to serve the LORD, choose today whom you will serve, either the gods whom your fathers served who are beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh. 24:15)
Unblocked by predestination, any who wish can gain life: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying, ‘Come!’ And let anyone hearing say, ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” (Isa. 55:1; Rev. 22:17)
GOD here says: ‘Warn them from me. Let him hear who will, and let him decline to hear who will. Have I any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, and not rather in this, that he turn from his way and live? Why should you die? I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies. Turn, then, and live!’—Ezek. 3:27; 18:23, 31, 32; 33:7, 11-15,
Men are free to choose to serve whom they will and to act as they wish, and thereby fix their own destiny as either life or death.—Rom. 6:16.
Gene…read and you will understandQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 04 2008,18:37) seeking truth……….all your choices are a result of what has been already installed in your mind. The definition of Free Choice is to choose something without (ANY) influence derived from past association of (any) kind. Because if your were influenced by something the it was not a Free Choice but an influenced choice. There is no such thing as Free Choice or Free WILL. Very in depth Scientific research has proved that everything is a matter of cause and effect.Scripture shows that God cause salvation and change in our thinking. No where is if found that we have free Wills.
peace to you……………..gene
Wonderful my brother, nothing better we can find on free will.
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,00:52) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 04 2008,18:37) seeking truth……….all your choices are a result of what has been already installed in your mind. The definition of Free Choice is to choose something without (ANY) influence derived from past association of (any) kind. Because if your were influenced by something the it was not a Free Choice but an influenced choice. There is no such thing as Free Choice or Free WILL. Very in depth Scientific research has proved that everything is a matter of cause and effect.Scripture shows that God cause salvation and change in our thinking. No where is if found that we have free Wills.
peace to you……………..gene
Wonderful my brother, nothing better we can find on free will.
Adam
GM…Science over the bible?
GM…..
Here is the bible brother…believe that on only that
According to predestinarian teaching, if Christ has redeemed them, released them, purchased them, become their owner, they could never fall away. But the Bible says they can, and some do: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”
and notice this…2 Pet. 2:1-3,-“These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”
The apostle Paul writes in similar vein: “It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the right word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6)
If God hadthus chosen man’s destiny before birth, rendering any future choice by man empty, Moses would never have been inspired to say to Israel: “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your descendants may live, by loving the LORD your God, by heeding his injunctions, and by holding fast to him; for that will mean life to you.” (Deut. 30:19, 20)
Nor would Joshua have said: “If you find it obnoxious to serve the LORD, choose today whom you will serve, either the gods whom your fathers served who are beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh. 24:15)
Unblocked by predestination, any who wish can gain life: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying, ‘Come!’ And let anyone hearing say, ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” (Isa. 55:1; Rev. 22:17)
GOD here says: ‘Warn them from me. Let him hear who will, and let him decline to hear who will. Have I any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, and not rather in this, that he turn from his way and live? Why should you die? I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies. Turn, then, and live!’—Ezek. 3:27; 18:23, 31, 32; 33:7, 11-15,
Hi DK,
You have given the right examples of those who used their free wills than that of God's, that's why they failed.
If we also believe that we can use our free wills than God's then there it is utter confusion and failure. This is the reason behind Jesus' saying of “not my will but my father's”. I am saved not by my free will but because my Father God has drawn(dragged) me towards Him according to His free will. You are simply forgetting that we are vessles(pots) not the potter. God is the potter who makes this vessle according to His free will. You don't have your free will in that. God has created the tree of both good and evil. There is always a design in every thing as per God's plan. See paul's woes in Rom 7, he was not able do what he wanted to do, because there is always a program in our body that is the nature of sin and now God has installed another nature of Spirit. Our choices are limited to these already installed programmes. Making choice is not free will at all when they are influenced by certain programmes. If we choose God's will we will be on right track or if you want prove you have free will like God then gone case like the examples you gave.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,01:26) Hi DK,
You have given the right examples of those who used their free wills than that of God's, that's why they failed.
If we also believe that we can use our free wills than God's then there it is utter confusion and failure. This is the reason behind Jesus' saying of “not my will but my father's”. I am saved not by my free will but because my Father God has drawn(dragged) me towards Him according to His free will. You are simply forgetting that we are vessles(pots) not the potter. God is the potter who makes this vessle according to His free will. You don't have your free will in that. God has created the tree of both good and evil. There is always a design in every thing as per God's plan. See paul's woes in Rom 7, he was not able do what he wanted to do, because there is always a program in our body that is the nature of sin and now God has installed another nature of Spirit. Our choices are limited to these already installed programmes. Making choice is not free will at all when they are influenced by certain programmes. If we choose God's will we will be on right track or if you want prove you have free will like God then gone case like the examples you gave.
Peace to you
Adam
Hey…GMLook again…I gave you examples of people who GOD HAD CALLED…and WHO WERE FOLLOWING GODS PLAN…and then who TURNED AWAY…
The fact that they could turn away AFTER they were called shows that they have free will…
Remember its a difference between somethign “influencing” your choices..i.e. socioeconomic conditions…and something making those choices for you…you can be influenced to do something and still NOT DO IT…
Influences dont make choices..people do…
notice these scriptures…what do you think they mean ?
If God hadthus chosen man’s destiny before birth, rendering any future choice by man empty, Moses would never have been inspired to say to Israel: “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your descendants may live, by loving the LORD your God, by heeding his injunctions, and by holding fast to him; for that will mean life to you.” (Deut. 30:19, 20)
Nor would Joshua have said: “If you find it obnoxious to serve the LORD, choose today whom you will serve, either the gods whom your fathers served who are beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh. 24:15)
GOD here says: ‘Warn them from me. Let him hear who will, and let him decline to hear who will. Have I any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, and not rather in this, that he turn from his way and live? Why should you die? I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies. Turn, then, and live!’—Ezek. 3:27; 18:23, 31, 32; 33:7, 11-15,
If you notice these scriptures take place BEFORE GOD started calling people thru the spirit in the fashion he does now…there was no baptism in the spirit yet…there was no “spirit bearing witness with my spirit” yet….those are very important things to consider when reasoning on those scriptures..
Hi DK,
What do you want prove with this you want to prove that you have free will and because of which you saved your self without the influence of God? If so you are in a miserable condition. People failed because they thought they have free will.
Please realise that God is the one who is the creator who alone has free will not the creatures you and me. If you honour the creator you will be safe in this matter.
Peace to you
AdamGM….I never said I I was saved without Gods influence..look again..
God called me…and I RESPONDED…I did not have to but..I DID…
Free will gave the choice…
GM….
Again…comment on the scriptures…I notice you respond with more personal opinions than responding to the scriptures…at least GIVE ME a scripture or to to consider and ponder…
Perhaps you ignore because you have no scripture to respond with? Maybe its time to do some REAL dividing of the word…I can help if you like…if not ask GOD to help…remember “ALL scripture is insprired”…not just the ones YOU choose to recognize
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,01:55) Remember its a difference between somethign “influencing” your choices..i.e. socioeconomic conditions…and something making those choices for you…you can be influenced to do something and still NOT DO IT… Influences dont make choices..people do…
Gene..GM..Comments please on this statement
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 04 2008,16:24) He is the potter and we are the clay wheres free will in that.
and you also quote the scripture about a carnal…The problem with the scriptures you are quoting is you take them out of context with the rest of the scriptures…Take the “carnal mind” scripture…that scripture DOES NOT show a lack of free will…it shows the state of our mind without the help of GOD's spirit…shall i prove? Think about that scripture you quoted about the carnal mind in context with these scriptures:
2 Corinthians 5:17- 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Galatians 6:15- 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
2 Timothy 3:15- 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
James 1:21- 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
1 Corinthians 10:13- 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Romans 14:19- 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
John 14:26-26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:17-17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you.
John 1:12- 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
John 3:6- 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.
Ephesians 2:10-10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 6:4-4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Colossians 2:12-12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Where is the free will again when you are influenced, see God is not influenced like we do that is what the definition of free will. Yes I can give you verses see these
Eph 2:8-10, Jn 6:44-45, Rom 7:15-25
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,03:08) Where is the free will again when you are influenced, see God is not influenced like we do that is what the definition of free will. Yes I can give you verses see these
Eph 2:8-10, Jn 6:44-45, Rom 7:15-25
Adam
GM..I alluded to those same verses…Like I said…don't take 3 scriptures out of context with the rest of the bible…If you like I can give you 20 MORE scriptures that show “A CHOICE”…
GM..brother..if your understanding on a couple scriptures differs from what the VAST MAJORITY of scriptures say…your understading on those couple scriptures..MUST BE WRONG
GM…I can influence you to rob a bank…that DOES NOT mean you HAVE to do it..
maybe this will show you the fallacy in you and Gene's “influence” argument
etymology: influence-influence
c.1374, an astrological term, “streaming ethereal power from the stars acting upon character or destiny of men,” from O.Fr. influence “emanation from the stars that acts upon one's character and destiny” (13c.), also “a flow of water,” from M.L. influentia “a flowing in” (also used in the astrological sense), from L. influentem (nom. influens), prp. of influere “to flow into,” from in- “in” + fluere “to flow” (see fluent). Meaning “exercise of personal power by human beings” is from 1439; meaning “exertion of unseen influence by persons” is from 1588 (a sense already in M.L., e.g. Aquinas). Under the influence “drunk” first attested 1866. Influential “powerful” is from 1734.Look very closely at the etymology of the word “influence”
now look at the definition
influence-1 a: an ethereal fluid held to flow from the stars and to affect the actions of humans b: an emanation of occult power held to derive from stars
2: an emanation of spiritual or moral force
3 a: the act or power of producing an effect without apparent exertion of force or direct exercise of command b: corrupt interference with authority for personal gain
4: the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways : sway
5: one that exerts influencenotice the sysnonyms given for the word:
synonyms influence, authority, prestige, weight, credit mean power exerted over the minds or behavior of others. influence may apply to a force exercised and received consciously or unconsciously . authority implies the power of winning devotion or allegiance or of compelling acceptance and belief . prestige implies the ascendancy given by conspicuous excellence or reputation for superiority . weight implies measurable or decisive influence in determining acts or choices . credit suggests influence that arises from the confidence of others .
Think about this…I can become “under the influence” of alcohol…now does that mean I had no choice…NO…its means I MADE THE CHOICE to drink and I became drunk
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