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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2008,14:45) Hi t8,
Good point.
But it could be for 1000 years or more could it not?
The false prophet and the beast were still there when the devil joined them 1000 years later.[Rev20]
I agree. From what I understand, the new heavens and earth is after the 1000 years.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2008,15:12) T8 and Nick…….I heard someone say that the book of revelation is purely symbolic. Where it says in chapter 1:1 , He sent and (signified) it. Means he sent and (SYMBOLIZED) it. In other words the book can only be understood from a symbolic form, I kind of think He may be right, that is also Sir Issac Newton's view. Almost everything about the book must be understood symbolically . I Believe you cant understand it literally but only through the eyes of symbolism. Just a thought………….gene
There are certainly a lot of symbols and it could have something to do with sealing up the message.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2008,23:17) Hi GB,
So are the angel and Jesus and others symbolic?
Jesus is usually represented in the book of Revelation as the lamb. The “lamb” is not a literal lamb; it is symbolic of the overcoming Jesus.The Revelation is from the only true God, Yahweh, to Jesus, who in turn gives it to the angel, who in turn gives it to John, who in turn gives it to the servants. (Revelation 1:1,2) All of these are true individuals, not symbolic individuals, referred to in the book of Revelation.
Christian love,
Ronaldronday888…..You brought a good Point, Notice Jesus is not Just represented as a Lamb but a slayen Lamb. I believe he is represented that way because Jesus has put his Will completely to death and the only Will working in Him is the Will of God the Father. Thats why the seven Horns (powers) and the seven Stars (seven Spirits) of God that goes into all the earth.
But these function through Him because He has Put His own Will to death, This shows Us what we must also do, in order that God may be all and in all.
IMO………Peace to you and yours…………..gene
If we can see that everything is a product of cause and effect, things really start to line up whit regards to us and God the Father. If we say all the evil that ever could exist (Existed) and all the good that ever could exist (Existed) Before there ever was a world or man on it.
If we realize that the understanding of these two opposites is what gives us wisdom, and God wanted Wise Children, He needed to expose us to the two forces in order for us to get the balance and wisdom needed.
So He created man in a state in which He could accelerates the experiences of Good and evil. When sin first started it was very slow and that's why I believe man lived longer, because it took more time to experience the effects of good and evil, but after the flood the effects were accelerated by God and man did not have to live that long to get to the level that God wanted them to experience.
Stop and think about it if we were in a spiritual form where we couldn't feel pain and suffering or death these lesson might have not been able to be experienced or learned.
I believe God knew all along what was going to happen and even planed it that way, nothing was a accident including mans falling into sin. Jesus said he didn't come to condem the world, (WHY) because it was all God's Plan all along. From start to Finish It's all His work. “fore he shall make a short work in
the earth”.I tell you in all truth we all have more going for us then we even begin to Know, not because we are something, but because who the Father is.
love and peace to you all…………….gene
excellent post my brother, Gene,
A thought provoking post in deed.
May God continue to reveal wonderful things through you.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2008,16:51) If we can see that everything is a product of cause and effect, things really start to line up whit regards to us and God the Father. If we say all the evil that ever could exist (Existed) and all the good that ever could exist (Existed) Before there ever was a world or man on it. If we realize that the understanding of these two opposites is what gives us wisdom, and God wanted Wise Children, He needed to expose us to the two forces in order for us to get the balance and wisdom needed.
So He created man in a state in which He could accelerates the experiences of Good and evil. When sin first started it was very slow and that's why I believe man lived longer, because it took more time to experience the effects of good and evil, but after the flood the effects were accelerated by God and man did not have to live that long to get to the level that God wanted them to experience.
Stop and think about it if we were in a spiritual form where we couldn't feel pain and suffering or death these lesson might have not been able to be experienced or learned.
I believe God knew all along what was going to happen and even planed it that way, nothing was a accident including mans falling into sin. Jesus said he didn't come to condem the world, (WHY) because it was all God's Plan all along. From start to Finish It's all His work. “fore he shall make a short work in
the earth”.I tell you in all truth we all have more going for us then we even begin to Know, not because we are something, but because who the Father is.
love and peace to you all…………….gene
Hi GB,
The reason why men lived longer is written and we do not need to speculate.
It was the choice of God as shown in Gen 6.Nick……….God does things for a reason and to speculate is not necessarily wrong when there is no specific answer shown, you should know that you are speculating all the time about preexistence no where does it specifically say Jesus preexisted as some super being these are just you speculations on what you think the scriptures say. So check your own eye before you start accusing others.
IMO…………..gene
To say god planned “this” all along would mean that we are Predestined, We have no free will, God is ultimately responsible for all the death and dying we see, and the devil was right all along…
Sorry brother Gene…
I can't believe that….
“God is Love”..remember
…these things can not be true…and the preceding scripture be true..
What kind of Father subjects his children to such a sadistic Game…
Remember John 3:16…There is no way God created the earth knowing he had to do this…
There is know way God…created the earth knowing that the world would fall into the state of debauchery we see now..
Sin comes from imperfection….GOd is perfect therefore no imperfection could come from him…
And for the record Jesus did not come to codemn the world because the world had already condemned it self…”Thru one man Adam sin entered in the world”…right at that point as God said would happen..we were condemned to death…Jesus was sent to redeem the world…so no…just as he said he did not come to condemn…but to redeem
Wow…just wow…is all i can to this
dirtyknections,
I'm still undecided on the level that God was aware of what would transpire. However I do not see blame falling on the Father, we judge difficulties in this life from a human perspective. I personally believe that God will “balance the books” (as indicated in the parable Jesus in Luke 16:25″But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.)2 Timothy 1:9 who hath saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but in accordance with His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
This scripture does seem to indicate some pre-knowledge but could possibly be explained some other way. Is there scripture which might indicate that God did not know or chose not to know, or does it just seem to “fit” an all loving God better?
Look forward to your response – Wm
) Free will was indispensable if humans were to honor and serve God out of love, not as robots with every movement determined beforehand. Love displayed by intelligent, free creatures would enable God to refute unjust accusations.
Proverbs 27:11. “Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.”
If God’s servants were predestined—or programmed, so to speak—could not the genuineness of their love for their Creator be called into question? Also, would it not be contrary to God’s impartiality for him to make a predetermined choice of persons destined to glory and happiness without taking their individual merits into account? Moreover, if some receive such preferential treatment, while others are destined to eternal punishment, this would hardly arouse sincere feelings of gratitude in the “elect,” or “chosen ones
Christ told his disciples to preach the good news to all mankind. If God has already chosen the ones to be saved, would this not dampen the zeal Christians show in evangelizing? Would it not make the preaching work essentially pointless?
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says: “Previous to Augustine [of the fourth and fifth centuries C.E.] there was no serious development in Christianity of a theory of predestination.” Before Augustine, earlier so-called “Church Fathers” such as Justin, Origen, and Irenaeus “know nothing of unconditional predestination; they teach free will.” (Hastings’ Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, 1919, Vol. X, p. 231) In their refutation of Gnosticism, they are described as regularly expressing their belief in the free moral agency of man as “the distinguishing characteristic of human personality, the basis of moral responsibility, a divine gift whereby man might choose that which was well-pleasing to God,” and as speaking of “the autonomy of man and the counsel of God who constraineth not.”—The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, edited by S. Jackson, 1957, Vol. IX, pp. 192, 193.
This scripture alone shows that pre destination is not a biblical teaching. Although the bible says we, Christians, ” : “You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price.”
According to predestinarian teaching, if Christ has redeemed them, released them, purchased them, become their owner, they could never fall away. But the Bible says they can, and some do: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”
and notice this…2 Pet. 2:1-3,-“These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”
The apostle Paul writes in similar vein: “It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the right word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6)
If God hadthus chosen man’s destiny before birth, rendering any future choice by man empty, Moses would never have been inspired to say to Israel: “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your descendants may live, by loving the LORD your God, by heeding his injunctions, and by holding fast to him; for that will mean life to you.” (Deut. 30:19, 20)
Nor would Joshua have said: “If you find it obnoxious to serve the LORD, choose today whom you will serve, either the gods whom your fathers served who are beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh. 24:15)
Unblocked by predestination, any who wish can gain life: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying, ‘Come!’ And let anyone hearing say, ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” (Isa. 55:1; Rev. 22:17)
GOD here says: ‘Warn them from me. Let him hear who will, and let him decline to hear who will. Have I any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, and not rather in this, that he turn from his way and live? Why should you die? I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies. Turn, then, and live!’—Ezek. 3:27; 18:23, 31, 32; 33:7, 11-15,
Men are free to choose to serve whom they will and to act as they wish, and thereby fix their own destiny as either life or death.—Rom. 6:16.
I haven't read all your post yet (I will) but I want to be clear I fully agree that we have free will. If God did knew the future that does not force it to happen.
Wm
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,09:57) Hi ST,
Within the realms of the will of God.
Nick,
Please clarify?Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ June 04 2008,14:54) If God did knew the future that does not force it to happen. Wm
Hi seekCan you clarify what you mean here?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,14:57) Hi ST,
Within the realms of the will of God.
Hey Nick….Can you explain a little further?
To All………….there is no such thing as (FREE WILL) For a Will to be FREE nothing can influence it. All choices are a result of (CAUSE and EFFECT). You are caused to choose from what's already in your mind and this is what causes your choices. Free Has nothing to do with it. You can not find (Free Will) mentioned at all in the bible.
If God said He new the end from the beginning, why do you think He doesn't Know what our choices are going to be, and He said He is the potter and we are the clay wheres free will in that.
People don't believe in the (SOVEREIGNTY)of ONE GOD> Man can not stand the fact that God is Sovereign in all things. Man want to think He is a God by His owns Free Will because the carnal mind is an enemy of God and Is not Subject to Him or His laws. The carnal mind wants to think it's own Free Choices caused itself to be saved. But the bible plainly shows
that is not true.To think that God doesn't know whats going to happen with all of us is pure folly.
If we believe in a all Knowing all powerful God as most all christains proclaim, then what kind of God would he be if He allowed all this evil when He with His power could stop it all any time He wants to.So to think He did not plan all of this evil in the world and planned it would make Him the most evil and cruel being that could ever exist. There is nothing that just happen to be the way it is, it's all done by design. It's needful that man experience both good and evil and I believe God planned it all from the very beginning.
imo……………gene
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