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Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 10 2008,13:36) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 09 2008,07:48) How many believe in eternal torment? We know the judgment is eternal, but is the suffering eternal. Some scriptures appears to support that the soul will be destroyed. Jesus said to fear him who can do this. If the soul doesn't die than man already had eternal life only in a state of misery. Ezekiel said the soul that sins will die. So does the soul actually die, or is it eternally tormented?
Jesus said he came that we would not “perish”. What does perish mean? How come Jesus didn't say he came so that we would be tormented?
This is a very tough issue because it is a clear case where you can find scriptures to support both views?
I'm very interested in hearing various views.
Steven
Greetings Steven……Lets take a look at your question with a measured amount of logic…..
#1…God is a loving merciful God….The torment of fire speaks to the utter destuction of both body and soul…burned up..no longer existing (certainly not being tormented forever simply because it is not in keeping with the nature of God )
#2…If the soul (nephish,living being )doesn't die than why would we need a ressurection.
Hi TJ,
The word 'soul' in scripture sometimes is used to speak of the whole person.Resurrection surely is the assembly on the earth for judgement, from the earth and the sea, of the dead.
I do not think it will involve the destroyed body but lost souls will not be clothed alike to the Son of God but be naked [ps49]
What do you think?
This is all wonderful, but how do we explain these scriptures?
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Are we talking about several different Lakes of Fire here? or, are all these the same Lake of Fire? Because if they are the same looks pretty obvious to me that every thing is going to end up in this Lake of Fire that is going to be going on for ever and ever.
Is this some sort of parable too? I thought the book of Revelation was a book of prophesy.Oh, and the word destruction…
Well for starters, in the Webster Dictionary this is the exact definition of the word:
Pronunciation:
\di-ˈstrək-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English destruccioun, from Anglo-French destruction, from Latin destruction-, destructio, from destruere
Date:
14th century1 : the state or fact of being destroyed : ruin
2 : the action or process of destroying something
3 : a destroying agencyThe New Testament Greek Lexicon
Apoleia
Strong's Number: 684a)pwñleia
Original WordWord Origin
a)pwñleia from a presumed derivative of (622)
Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling
Apoleia ap-o'-li-a
Parts of SpeechTDNT
Noun Feminine 1:396,67
Definition1. destroying, utter destruction
1. of vessels
2. a perishing, ruin, destruction
1. of money
2. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hellHi Samuel,
It is the revelation of the future for those not found in Christ or outside the mercy of God.Yeah,
The way I see it is the book of Revelation for us in the New Testament. Is alot like the book of Isiah was for the Old Testament.
Its a Revelation of what is yet to come.
Prophesy
Nick……..all wickedness shall be eternal destroyed, that does not mean the person himself will be. When a wicked person truly repents His evil is eternally destroyed, but the new person goes on to eternal life. Whosoever does not bare His Crucifixion can not be Jesus disciple. Those who have put their Will's to death will not suffer loss, but those whose will haven't will suffer loss. The only thing God wants destroyed for ever is sin and wackiness in our lives. Those He's decided to save at this time will be saved through fiery trials, for we enter in through much tribulation, and again concerning this fiery trial which has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. The Fire is for the purpose of burning away the dross in us all, and the eternal fire is this eternal working judgements of God which will keep evil non active in peoples lives for ever . God Himself is the consuming fire, God is not going to destroy His created children He is love and love does not eternally destroy it's children. God can and will forgive and save all His children some day. Salvation is a process of conforming Us in God's image and is a ongoing work God is doing. Those who use fear tactics that cause fear in people are themselves the fearful and unbelieving. The Judgement God and Jesus brings are the best thing that could ever happen for man kind it will deliver who ever it comes to, now or later. God is perfectly capable of saving all his creation and will eventually because He is love. God has concluded (ALL) under sin that He might have mercy on (ALL), not just a picky few but His whole Creation shall be delivered from the bondage of sin.
IMO…….gene
Nick…….I was in the wwcg for seven years until God showed me the errors of their teaching. When is was in there there was this sense of belonging to the special group of God only true church because we though we had the truth and the rest were false churches. You had this sense of being special as all cults and organized religions do, the JW's do, The Catholics do, the baptist do, yes and even Jim Jones Group felt they were the (ONLY TRUE ONES), people can become convinced of almost anything with enough time and persuasion as history has proved. Once these organizations get you in they use fear, like if you leave our church your going to go to Hell or this is your chance to get into the (KINGDOM) while the rest of mankind would not make it, so people tend to not question their doctrines, which gives them control over them. I thank God that i have been set free from these false teachers, I've found that we need only to believe what we can understand from God's words and Keep our relationship with Him personnel and private Just as Jesus said it was, When You pray go into a room close the door and pray and the God who See's in secret will reward you openly, rather you belong to a organised religion or not, that's been my experience in life.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 11 2008,04:19) Nick……..all wickedness shall be eternal destroyed, that does not mean the person himself will be. When a wicked person truly repents His evil is eternally destroyed, but the new person goes on to eternal life. Whosoever does not bare His Crucifixion can not be Jesus disciple. Those who have put their Will's to death will not suffer loss, but those whose will haven't will suffer loss. The only thing God wants destroyed for ever is sin and wackiness in our lives. Those He's decided to save at this time will be saved through fiery trials, for we enter in through much tribulation, and again concerning this fiery trial which has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. The Fire is for the purpose of burning away the dross in us all, and the eternal fire is this eternal working judgements of God which will keep evil non active in peoples lives for ever . God Himself is the consuming fire, God is not going to destroy His created children He is love and love does not eternally destroy it's children. God can and will forgive and save all His children some day. Salvation is a process of conforming Us in God's image and is a ongoing work God is doing. Those who use fear tactics that cause fear in people are themselves the fearful and unbelieving. The Judgement God and Jesus brings are the best thing that could ever happen for man kind it will deliver who ever it comes to, now or later. God is perfectly capable of saving all his creation and will eventually because He is love. God has concluded (ALL) under sin that He might have mercy on (ALL), not just a picky few but His whole Creation shall be delivered from the bondage of sin. IMO…….gene
Hi gene,
Your beliefs expressed here are not written but based on what you hope and surmise. It is better to stay with what is written.Yes….
What is written is good. I agree.
Seek ye first the kingdom of GOD. As I'm told and also is written.
Nick…..wrong again> Eze 3:18> when I (God) say unto the wicked, thou shalt (surely die) and thou givest him not warning, the same wicked man shall die, but his blood will I require at thine hand. read also Eze 3:19-20. Again God is not willing that any parish, but all come to repentance. And again every mans work will be tried and if He has built with gold silver or precious stones, he shall receive a reward, if he has build with wood, hay, or stubble, He will suffer loss, BUT HE SHALL BE SAVED, YET AS BY (FIRE). please explain these scriptures, there are others also, if God is not WILLING for something to happen like His children perishing, do you think for a moment He cant prevent it from happening.
Hears something you might not be taking into consideration, in fact you probably never even heard of it, Nick go to genesis and read where God created the creation in every category of creation He said it was Good, except when it comes to Man He didn't say that, why? because man was not created Good in his beginning but over the creative process He will be, man was not a completed creation, God was just beginning the creating process and when it completed it will be good, Like the rest of God's creation is. Man is being created into the Image of God. For we are being created unto GOOD WORKS.
And i have given you a lot of scriptures but you Just choose to ignore them you never comet on them.IMO………..gene
Jesus said……..If they eye offend (prevent) you cast it from you, for it is better that you inter into the kingdom of God with one eye then to have two and be cast into the lake of Fire where their (WORM) dieth not and the fire is not quenched, and if thy hand offend (prevent ) you cut it of and cast it from you, for it is better you inter the kingdom with one hand then to be cast into the fire where the (WORM) dieth not and the fire is not quenched., and if thy foot offend (prevent) you cut it of and cast it from you, for it is better you enter the kingdom mained then to have two feet and be cast into the fire where the (WORM) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
What is the Worm that won't die, I contend that it is our own stubborn Wills that wants to hold on to our own ways and unless we are unwilling to let it go and put it to death we will enter into a fiery judgement by God that will not cease until it burns us pure, as fire burns all the dross from metal leaving it purified, all who are not willing put there wills to death will experience this cleansing fire . The saints are experiencing this fire now. ” Now concerning this Fiery trial that has tried you as if some strange thing has happened to you. And every mans work shall be tried by fire and if he has built with Gold, silver, or precious metals, he shall receive a reward, but if He has built with hay, straw, stubble, He shall suffer loss (BUT) he shall be (SAVED) yet as by (FIRE).
There is no eternal lake of Fire where God will cast His children and watch them scream out for all eternity in pain and anguish as False Christianity says. God is not willing that any Parish, but that all come to repentance and again God does all things after the council of His own Will, and again God can take the heart of stone out of us and give us all a heart of flesh, (soft hearts) all things are possible with God. God the Father will eventually save all His creation, didn't He Say He has concluded all under Sin that He might have mercy on (ALL). Our God is great in power to save His children and will save (ALL)> YET AS THROUGH FIRE<
peace and love to all…………..gene
to all…..Fire repersents God's judgement, remember John said that Jesus would baptise with Spirit and (FIRE). We all need God Fire (judgements) in our hearts to be cleansed.
The lake of Fire is GOD, doesen't it say “OUR GOD IS A CONSUMMING FIRE”.
peace and love …………gene
Quote (Cubes @ July 20 2006,20:45) Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,06:04) The outcome for the wicked is 'destruction'. They will 'perish'. But we perhaps need to define those 2 words to understand their punishment.
Hi t8:What's getting to me is this: if the inhabitants of Sodom were destroyed by fire and brimstone, and that's awful enough, and Jesus says that the fate of others would be worse than that, then wouldn't that define the meaning of the words “perish/destruction” in yet other ways than was previously understood by the examples we had?
Just wondering?
*****To All………….we all need the Firey Judgements of God to purge us and clean us from all unrightiousness, and while these Judgements can be and are painfull at times, never the less they are needed and will save all humanity eventually. And you who are suffering in the Flesh now, remember what Peter said “He who suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin”. God may be purging us at times through painfull or (firey) experiences. But when it's all said and done we will have a crown of righteousness and Joy.
peace and love to you all…………………………gene
To all…… there is not greater lie told then our loving Father casting his childern into an ever burnning lake of fire and watching them burn up in everlasting pain and angony. These teachings are right from the mouth of Satan himself and are used by ” Christrdom” to inject fear into the hearts of people, which gives them power over the hearts and minds of people. Fear causes people no to question and stand up to their false teachings because most people don't really understand the bible and let these false teachers intrepadate them through fear. God the Father is the comsuming fire which will save (ALL) his creation through Judgements. God is able to cleans us all from our sins, once you understand that your hope and confidence in Him will grow and your joy will also. We have more going for us them we even begin to understand. Because we are all his childern and who every call on the name of the lord will be saved , just as it say's, (YET) as by (FIRE).
peace and love to you all…………..gene
Hi Gene,
Good posts my brother. I don't know why I am not much convinced on this subject that there is nothing like eternal judgement. Try to explain more on lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 21-22. What exactly you mean the second death ? Tell some thing on 'rich man and Lazarus' otld by Jesus.
Thank you all.
AdamHi Gene,
Good posts my brother. I don't know why I am not much convinced on this subject that there is nothing like eternal judgement. Try to explain more on lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 21-22. What exactly you mean the second death ? Tell some thing on 'rich man and Lazarus' told by Jesus.
Thank you all.
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ April 28 2008,21:02) Hi Gene,
Good posts my brother. I don't know why I am not much convinced on this subject that there is nothing like eternal judgement. Try to explain more on lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 21-22. What exactly you mean the second death ? Tell some thing on 'rich man and Lazarus' told by Jesus.
Thank you all.
Adam
Adam…….. eternal Judgement does exist, in fact all of God's Judgments are eternal. But the question is not of eternal judgements, but about people being eternally burning in an ever lasting flame of fire screaming out in pain for all eternity. you ask about Rev 21-12 first you must understand Revelations is a book of symbols it is not litterial, The symbol for intense Judgement is fire. all who don't repent in this life will have there part in this intense judgement, which is called the lake of fire. Remember when it says that God is a Consuming Fire. Remember where John said that Jesus would baptise with Spirit and (FIRE), he wasn't talking about literal fire but intense Judgements.
all true Saints are being tried by fire now, ” concerning this fiery trial that has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you”. You see Fire is represented as judgments of God on us to burn away the dross, just a s real fire is used to purify metals, God uses intense trials brought on by His intense Judgements, “For God disciplines us and scourges ever Son He excepts. No one said it would be easy brother but the out come is eternal life.Peace to you and yours Adam……………..gene
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