Eternal torment

Participant

Hi cato,
Man loves control.
He trusts his senses and his intellect.
Our minds cannot grasp and reach unity on what is true but invisible.
On these matters only what is written can guide us until we are granted the mind of Christ.

February 26, 2008 at 7:38 pm#82696

Mr. Steve

Participant

Cato;

Jesus prayed to his father to sanctify us by thy truth, thy word is truth. Ye shall know this truth and the truth shall make you free.

Steven

February 26, 2008 at 9:06 pm#82706

Participant

Hi,
Luke 12:4-6 (Young's Literal Translation)

4`And I say to you, my friends, be not afraid of those killing the body, and after these things are not having anything over to do;

5but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.

March 8, 2008 at 3:15 am#83377

Proclaimer

Participant

God gave us his Word and he gave us reason and the ability to understand what he says to us.

But he didn't give us truth from ourselves or from our own spirit. Truth comes from God and is given to us when we are in unity with God. He did give us a conscience or knowledge of the Law in our hearts. But even then the written law was given because what man can trust even himself?

March 8, 2008 at 7:48 pm#83422

Mr. Steve

Participant

How many believe in eternal torment? We know the judgment is eternal, but is the suffering eternal. Some scriptures appears to support that the soul will be destroyed. Jesus said to fear him who can do this. If the soul doesn't die than man already had eternal life only in a state of misery. Ezekiel said the soul that sins will die.

So does the soul actually die, or is it eternally tormented?

Jesus said he came that we would not “perish”. What does perish mean? How come Jesus didn't say he came so that we would be tormented?

This is a very tough issue because it is a clear case where you can find scriptures to support both views?

I'm very interested in hearing various views.

Steven

March 8, 2008 at 11:29 pm#83439

Participant

Mr. Steve……. where does it say man will eternally die, we know it appointed unto man to once die, and then the judgement. This is where i believe Christians get off track because most have been taught that Judgement is a bad thing, and those who are found sinners in this life will be dammed to eternal fire and go into a lake of fire that will burn them for all eternity as they scream out in agony. I totally disagree with that for many reasons. One is that the way a loving God would act. 2, if He is not willing that any parish, is he not nable to bring that about, 3, the Scriptures say God is able to take out the Hardness in a person and give Him a soft Heart, doesn't that mean He is able to change a person and correct his thinking. Why would God create childern with problems he can't fix no matter what their problems are. I have come to believe the Lake of Fire is not a literal Lake of Fire, but is a syembolic term for God Himself, doesen't it say “for our God is a Consumming Fire”. Fire is symbolic for Judgemant. Those who are not chosen now will be cast into this Judgement and those who are chosen are going theough firey testing and trials now and are being refined by God now. ” Every mans work shall be tried, if he has built with gold silver or precious stones, he will recieved a reward, but if he has built with wood, hay stuble, he will suffer lose, (BUT) he Himself (WILL) be SAVED, Yet as by FIRE. Some will have to be SAVED BY FIRE.

IMO…………….gene

March 9, 2008 at 12:06 am#83442

Participant

Quote

This is a very tough issue because it is a clear case where you can find scriptures to support both views?

The thing is, MR. Steve, I don't think we can find scriptures to support both views without doing a whole lot of twisting to the scriptures on the one side. You'll notice that one side we have 3 things:

–A parable (which isn't something always easy to understand) about the rich man and lazarus.
–Certain scriptures in the highly symbolic not always so easy to understand book of revelation.
–And that one other scripture Nick likes to repeat over and over. (It's a couple posts above.)

So on this side, we mostly have symbolic things and a parable. It's easy to misunderstand these things.

On the other side, we have countless scriptures that speak of God's justice and love–neither of which are in any way compatible with the idea of eternal torture. Countless scriptures! Clear scriptures.

The “Have love for your enemies but I'm going to torture mine” seems to make God hypocritical.
Jehovah is a “God of Justice.” If any of the definitions of the word Justice are true, then torturing someone for all eternity for the sins of a few years is NOT justice.

“GOD IS LOVE” isn't he?

How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)

Here are some points I've posted before:

1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say? (Also Jer 32:35; 19:5)
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?

2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)

3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?

4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?
Justice is “the quality of being just or fair.” –wordnet.princeton.
“Fair” is “conforming with established standards or rules.”–wordnet.princeton.
This means Jehovah, a lover of justice would be fair or conform to his own standards or rules. To not do this would be hypocritical, afterall.
So Jehovah is just, he conforms to his own standards, obviously.
If Jehovah conforms to his own standards, and Jehovah tells us to love our enemies, in what world or universe could you imagine that Jehovah would be fair or just and conform to this standard if He tortured his own enemies for all time.

5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)

6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?

8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?

9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible contradict itself?

March 9, 2008 at 12:16 am#83443

942767

Participant

Quote

Malachi 4

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

March 9, 2008 at 12:36 am#83447

Participant

“Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel both with fury and with BURNING anger, in order to make the land an object of astonishment, and that it may ANNIHILATE the land’s sinners out of it.” Zephaniah 1:15

In Malachi 1:4, I don't believe people will be turned into “stubble” the part of the crop left after harvesting.
I do believe that the comparison to stubble is fitting, as is the comparison to the day of Jehovah, the day of Jehovah's “burning anger” being a “day” that shall “burn as an oven.”
Days don't burn, but that day shall be one that shall burn as an oven.
That day that is burning as an oven shall 'burn up' the wicked. I don't believe the wicked will be any more literally burning than the “day” itself which is said to be burning as an oven.
The picture that is shown here is one of the wicked becoming ashes, not of them burning eternally without end.

I'm wondering what Nick actually thinks of this scripture. I can't see him using it to support his views, because he thinks that the wicked are “destroyed eternally” (not meaning destroyed for all time, but meaning they are slowly always in the process of being destroyed.”
But this scripture speaks of them being ashes “in the day that [Jehovah] shall do this.”

The wicked, the enemies of Jehovah, as well as schemes that were bound to fail, are compared to stubble. (Ex 15:7; Ps 83:13; Mal 4:1; Isa 33:11)

The apostle Paul, in discussing Christian building work, listed stubble as the least valuable material, one that would not withstand the fire test.—1Co 3:12, 13.

March 9, 2008 at 3:45 am#83455

Participant

david ……Jw's use those teachings to control people and get them fearfull in order to get more members, The firey trials that have tried us as if some strange thing has happened unto us, is the same trials that will try the rest of man kind only more severely . God himself is the (CONSUMMING FIRE) just as the scriptures say. WJ's are taking synbolic lanjuage and using it in a literal way. If God is able to save a sinner like you and me He is able to save any one He choses to JW's as well as other relegious organization all think they are the only ones and everyone else is going to eternal Hell Fire, except them of course.

IMO……..gene

March 9, 2008 at 3:55 am#83458

Participant

Gene, you wrote:

Quote

I'm confused over your comments. You say we're “taking symbolic language and using it in a literal way.”
I think you are grossly misinformed as to what I believe. All those scriptures of fire are symbols for complete and utter destruction. All the world's furnaces testify to that fact. The best way for most to completely destroy something is fire. Fire is a symbol. To be clear, I do not believe God tortures people.
As well, you begin saying that JW's use “those” teachings to control people and get them fearful.”
Again, I think you're highly confused here. We don't believe in hellfire. We believe when someone dies, that's it. Nothing. And for those who are determined to be unworthy of life, they, along with death itself, shall be thrown into the symbolic lake of fire, meaning the second death.

david.

March 9, 2008 at 5:08 pm#83472

Participant

Daivd……Your wrong fire does not mean eternal destruction in the scriptures, it means purification as for instance when Gold is put into the fire and purified. ” Now concerning this (FIREY) trial that has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you”. Here trials are compared as fire. And again every mans work shall be tried by Fire, and if he has built with precious stones as gold and silver he will receive a reward, but if he has built with wood, hay or stubble he shall suffer loss, (BUT He) shall be saved (YET AS BY FIRE)> fire here is shown as a way of salvation. People who do not repent and live Godly lives now, will be cast into a fiery judgement with God ” our God is a consuming Fire. He Himself is the lake of Fire which will purge and cleanse those who are cast into Him. Again all religions who use eternal Fire or for God killing off his creation are liars. Why would God who is able by His own power to
(CREATES RIGHTEOUSNESS) not do it for some and do it for other like Jw's and picky few, but destroy all the rest of his created children by casting them into a lake of eternal fire. The God you JW”S portray is a cruel and unmerciful God except for the little Group of JW”S . I believe all of humanity will ultimately be saved for several reasons, one God does not create children to kill, two He said he is not willing that any parish (doesnt it say God does all things after the council of His own will), so if it's not His will that any parish then none will parish. Again you applying all the symbols of fire in the bible as symbols of complete and utter destruction is simple wrong it is not substanciated any where in the bible.

As far as whose is worthy, what does scripture say, God looked for (ONE) righteous person and guess what He Found none, not even one, so he took it on His own arm to bring (SALVATION) because there was no one righteous, even Jesus said why call me good there is (ONLY ONE THATS GOOD) and that's GOD. Without GOD spirit in a person, its impossible for them to continue to live a right life, and even those who have it still sin a times, O, but in your view God will forgive them but destroy all the rest of humanity in some lake of fire with out even giving them the chance to repent through an intense Judgement that will show them there sins and bring them to repentance. You under estimate both the Power of God and He strength to save as wail as His (SOVERIGNTY).

IMO……….gene

March 9, 2008 at 7:45 pm#83477

Participant

Hi Gene,
Rom9
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

March 9, 2008 at 10:34 pm#83489

Samuel

Participant

Even still who wants to be destroyed?

Weather you burn in hellfire for eternity or you are completely destroyed? You are still not with GOD and still do not know the love that was meant for you.

This is more or less a debate of whatever …lol I'm not really even sure.

GOD does not want to see anyone perish. I had something else I was going to say but now I've forgotten…bad memory.

OH! I remember now.

Alot of people use hellfire and the lake of fire as a “Scare-Tactic” to get people to get saved. I've always sort of thought of it like this….
As I understand it GOD created us in his own image or whatever…and did so that we might be able to choose to server him or not. If he wanted to force us to serve him …he could have just made a couple hundred thousand or so more angles and had them server him with a lot less stress involved….lol anyway…
He didn't do that. He made us with the free will and choice to choose. I am not sure what Heaven or hell are like…being as I have currently never been to either one. But I know that they both exist in some fashion as the bible tells me. And it seems that Heaven is the desired place that be. But I also have a question about what heaven actually is as well. Lots of people think that they are going to go to heaven which is not on this earth. The bible tells us if I remember right that heaven is coming down to earth.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and my new name.
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

It also tells us this:
Matthew 5:5
Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

It tells us that we should inherit the earth. I believe it was GODS plan all along for us to have the earth…it was ours, he gave it to us at the beginning…and we gave it away…so he was merciful enough to go get it back for us.

There is alot of the bible that we don't currently understand.
Which is mostly Revelation. But some other stuff in the bible as well. I was in church and living for GOD at a early age…and fell out. Wondered around in the wilderness for about 15 years. Came back and now it seems like I'm making more mistakes than I was then. But I'm really trying. There was a good bible study in the church that I was going to at the time. And the pastor was a wonderful man that really loved to teach people GODS word rather than Scare them with it.

I don't think GODS word is meant to be feared. I believe was should have a fear of GOD. But I think the whole point of all of this is that GOD wants us to love him and each other as he loves us. Thats what I think its all about really.

March 10, 2008 at 12:55 am#83497

Participant

Nick….You are right God hardens some people and softens others for His (WILL) and purposes so where's free Will In all of this. But where does it say those He hardens are eternally lost or for that matter where does God say He will hate Esau for ever. Fact is there is no such thing as free Will we are all required to obey God it not up for debate by any one. God does all things after the council of His Will not yours or mine. God is quite able to save everyone if He wants to, and further more He takes responsible for it all also. Those who think (THERE OWN) free decisions determine the future destinies are Just playing God. WE are required to do what God says but to think this comes from a persons own (FREE WILL) is pure foolishness. Socrates stated it right, every thing is the result of cause and effect. He also said there is a prime mover and the prime mover of those saved is God Himself. Thats why He can ordain things because He brings it about He himself is the cause of salvation, and He will get all the glory for it one day.

IMO………..gene

March 10, 2008 at 1:36 am#83504

theodorej

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 09 2008,07:48)

So does the soul actually die, or is it eternally tormented?

Jesus said he came that we would not “perish”. What does perish mean? How come Jesus didn't say he came so that we would be tormented?

This is a very tough issue because it is a clear case where you can find scriptures to support both views?

I'm very interested in hearing various views.

Steven

Greetings Steven……Lets take a look at your question with a measured amount of logic…..
#1…God is a loving merciful God….The torment of fire speaks to the utter destuction of both body and soul…burned up..no longer existing (certainly not being tormented forever simply because it is not in keeping with the nature of God )
#2…If the soul (nephish,living being )doesn't die than why would we need a ressurection.

March 10, 2008 at 2:09 am#83508

Participant

Hi,
I guess the question is about 2 Thess 1 and some other verses.
Many would reserve for themselves the right to ignore scripture and design a 'nicer' God.
2Thess 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

March 10, 2008 at 2:43 am#83509

Participant

“everlasting destruction.”

This can only mean you are destroyed without hope of life ever ever ever again.

It cannot mean you are in a steady state of destruction for eternity, for that is a paradox. If one is constantly being destroyed, but never ever is actually destroyed, then you are not being destroyed.

For the word destroyed means you are….destroyed.

Other words help us:

The wicked being “annihilated”

The wicked “perishing”

These help us to understand the CORRECT way of looking at “eternal destruction.”

March 10, 2008 at 2:49 am#83510