- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 21 2011,03:34) Perhaps this: No natural man can see God. Physical eyes cannot see spirit.
Hi Tim,That is how I understand it. Physical eyes can see spirits, but only when God “opens” those eyes to see those spirits.
And He and Jesus and John all seem pretty clear that no man has EVER seen God with human eyes – even though John saw him in a vision in Revelation. So apparently God has never “opened” the eyes of any human and made them capable of seeing Him.
I've explained to SF about Manoah, who KNOWING he saw an angel OF God still said, “We have seen God”. And I've explained that, unless the scriptures contradict themselves, Isaiah also saw God in a vision, and not with human eyes.
Many people saw Jesus with human eyes though – not in a vision. Ipso facto, Jesus is NOT God.
peace and love to you,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2011,01:23)
Why not? why cannot he Not see God as a human?
Because scripture says so.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2011,01:23)
Biblically have People claimed to have seen God? Yes or No?
Biblically, people have claimed to have seen “God”, meaning a representative OF God. God Himself says that no man can see Him and live. Either believe Him or don't, it's up to you. I find no contradiction in scripture, because I know how to understand the occasions when someone claimed to have seen God. I've showed you Manoah's clear evidence of this. Again, either believe it or don't.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2011,01:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2011,08:41) D, take a good hard ponder about Stephen. Think HARD about WHY he was able to see Jesus himself, but only the GLORY of God. Think about how Jesus was not God Himself in that passage, but one who was AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.
You see! there you go mike Jesus is THE GLORY OF GOD.
55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”So Stephen saw “Jesus AND Jesus”?
D, Jesus is the one called “the Son of Man”. He is the one AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, not God.You do understand that whoever God grants to sit at Jesus' right hand will not actually BE Jesus or equal to him, don't you?
Now, tell me once again why Stephen was clearly able to see Jesus himself, but only the glory of the God whose right hand Jesus was at.
Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2011,04:55) Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2011,16:27) Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2011,12:38) Kerwin Quote Pierre, It is your immagination that is teaching you if you do not believe scripture mean what God says. I hope that is not the case and instead you realize that God is quite capable of saying something in such a way to have more than one meaning especially since human beings can and God far exceeds them in ability.
————–
Your Fellow Student,
ok show a couple examples
Pierre
Pierre,If you believed then you would see them for yourself for it is written “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.” So you either believe God meant what those words or you do not. If you choose not to I cannot make you. If you choose to believe then you realize God was speaking of a child being conceived as a sign of the doom of two lands being laid to waste.
At the same time you also realize it also speaks of Jesus' conception being a sign of the revealing of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven.
If you have the NIV you will see that the Hebrew word translated “virgin” can also be translated “young woman. God chose to use that word instead of an existing one that only means virgin.
kerwinthis is a prophecy ,so i agree with you,this is LXX version
Quote 6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this. 8 The Lord has sent death upon Jacob, and it has come upon Israel. 9 And all the people of Ephraim, and they that dwelt in Samaria shall know, who say in their pride and lofty heart, 10 The bricks are fallen down, but come, let us hew stones, and cut down sycamores and cedars, and let us build for ourselves a tower. 11 And God shall dash down them that rise up against him on mount Sion, and shall scatter his enemies; 12 even Syria from the rising of the sun, and the Greeks from the setting of the sun, who devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but still his hand is exalted.
13 But the people turned not until they were smitten, and they sought not the Lord. 14 So the Lord took away from Israel the head and tail, great and small, in one day: 15 the old man, and them that respect persons, this is the head; and the prophet teaching unlawful things, he is the tail. 16 And they that pronounce this people blessed shall mislead them; and they mislead them that they may devour them. 17 Therefore the Lord shall not take pleasure in their young men, neither shall he have pity on their orphans or on their widows: for they are all transgressors and wicked, and every mouth speaks unjustly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is yet exalted.
18 And iniquity shall burn as fire, and shall be devoured by fire as dry grass: and it shall burn in the thickets of the wood, and shall devour all that is round about the hills. 19 The whole earth is set on fire because of the fierce anger of the Lord, and the people shall be as men burnt by fire: no man shall pity his brother. 20 But one shall turn aside to the right hand, for he shall be hungry; and shall eat on the left, and a man shall by no means be satisfied with eating the flesh of his own arm. 21 For Manasses shall eat the flesh of Ephraim, and Ephraim the flesh of Manasses; for they shall besiege Juda together. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is yet exalted.
Pierre
Sounds fine!Hi Mike,
Quote Because scripture says so.
Scripture also has testimonies of those who have claimed to have seen God.Quote Biblically, people have claimed to have seen “God”, meaning a representative OF God. God Himself says that no man can see Him and live. Either believe Him or don't, it's up to you. I find no contradiction in scripture, because I know how to understand the occasions when someone claimed to have seen God. I've showed you Manoah's clear evidence of this. Again, either believe it or don't.
Thats not exactly what it is said according to the people who have claimed to have SEEN God. For example Moses saw the back shoulder of God, yet that is seeing but a TASTE, a small image of God. Is that not true?
I dont find any contradiction in scripture as well.Quote So Stephen saw “Jesus AND Jesus”? D, Jesus is the one called “the Son of Man”. He is the one AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, not God.You do understand that whoever God grants to sit at Jesus' right hand will not actually BE Jesus or equal to him, don't you?
Now, tell me once again why Stephen was clearly able to see Jesus himself, but only the glory of the God whose right hand Jesus was at.[/QUOTE]
55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Observational facts:
1. the Glory of God AND Jesus are standing on the right of God.
2. verse 56 only mentions the Son of God.No one can be equal to the names that is above all names Mike.? dont you know that?
Jesus created the world, yet we never could, sooo we have never been nor wil be exactly how Jesus is becuase of course he is God.
Now, Tell me once again why Stepen was clearly able to see Jesus himself and The glory of God, but yet It doesnt state that Jesus was on the right hand of the Glory of God, however it does say that He is in the Right hand of God. So go ahead explain how the Glory of God is on the Right hand of the God that the Glory belongs to?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,14:16) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 31 2011,02:10) Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Another question, If Jesus is the Author than what is God if he is seperate being from christ?
You post a scripture that clearly lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN GOD, and then ask that question? 
Too funny.D, GOD is the One whose right hand Jesus is sitting at. Do you think GOD is sitting at His own right hand?
Good logic and scriptural logic.Quote (barley @ June 23 2011,08:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,14:16) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 31 2011,02:10) Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Another question, If Jesus is the Author than what is God if he is seperate being from christ? You post a scripture that clearly lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN GOD, and then ask that question? Too funny.D, GOD is the One whose right hand Jesus is sitting at. Do you think GOD is sitting at His own right hand?
Good logic and scriptural logic.
HiIf all we need is “good logic” to understand the scriptures then why did Jesus have to send the “Spirit of truth”?
Jesus said…
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which “testify of ME”. John 5:39
Interesting, why didn't Jesus say the scriptures testify of the Father?
Many think they know by the scriptures who Jesus is, but the scriptures clearly teach without the Holy Spirit of truth to reveal him then they do not know who or what he is!
WJ
Mike said to SF:
Quote You post a scripture that clearly lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN GOD,
There is NO scripture that says that Jesus is “other” than God in the sense Mike suggests. Jesus is “monogenes”, that is, God the only Son (John 1:18, Sahidic Coptics).Or it means, “God at the Father's side.”
“No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.”
John 1:18
KJ
WJ
Quote Many think they know by the scriptures who Jesus is, but the scriptures clearly teach without the Holy Spirit of truth to reveal him then they do not know who or what he is! what is the holy spirit of truth;this understanding would put light to who is Christ ,NO ?
Pierre
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2011,02:16)
For example Moses saw the back shoulder of God, yet that is seeing but a TASTE, a small image of God. Is that not true?
Exodus 33
18 And Moses said, “Show me your glory.”19 And the Lord said, “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will proclaim the Lord by name before you; I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy.” 20 But he added, “You cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.” 21 The Lord said, “Here is a place by me; you will station yourself on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and will cover you with my hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you will see my back, but my face must not be seen.”
What Moses actually asked to see was not God Himself, but the GLORY of God. And the GOODNESS and GLORY of God was what passed before him. You'll notice God's explicit words that NO ONE can see Him and live.
As far as the “you will see my back” part:
W. C. Kaiser says that since God is a spirit, the meaning of this word could just as easily be rendered “after effects” of his presence (“Exodus,” EBC 2:484). As S. R. Driver says, though, while this may indicate just the “afterglow” that he leaves behind him, it was enough to suggest what the full brilliancy of his presence must be (Exodus, 363; see also Job 26:14).
The point is that we KNOW that some of the occasions where people claimed to have seen “God” were actually cases of them seeing an angel OF God, (ie: Manoah), or seeing God in a spirited vision or dream (ie: John/Daniel) So that opens up at least the possibility that ALL occasions of someone “seeing God” were really occasions of them seeing an angel OF God, or seeing Him in a vision or dream, whether or not it's specifically stated.
We also KNOW from God's own words that “NO ONE can see Me and live”, right? So we have to make the best informed decision we can about whether these other people actually saw God Himself, and God LIED to Moses – or if these other people actually saw an angel OF God like Manoah did, or saw God in a vision or dream, like John and Daniel did.
One of these conclusions IS scripturally possible, while the other is absolutely NOT possible, for God cannot LIE. (Not to mention the corroborating support from Jesus and the Apostles) I've gone with the “educated guess” that at least has a possibility, as opposed to the one that has NO possibility whatsoever.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2011,02:16)
Observational facts:
1. the Glory of God AND Jesus are standing on the right of God.
Read it again. Stephen saw the glory of God……………AND he ALSO saw Jesus at the right hand of what he knew was God, even though he could only see His glory, and not God Himself.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2011,15:21)
There is NO scripture that says that Jesus is “other” than God in the sense Mike suggests. Jesus is “monogenes”, that is, God the only Son
This one is going right into Bizzaro World. Jack, have you noticed that almost every word you post on this site meets the requirements of “Bizzaro Doctine”?“Son OF God” does not in any stretch of the imagination EVER mean “God the Son”. Also, “monogenes” means “only begotten”, just like Strong says it does.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2011,15:21)
“No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.”John 1:18
Oh, you mean the “only BEGOTTEN god”? Is God Almighty “begotten” in ANY sense of the word?Now, follow your thoughts through: NO ONE has EVER seen GOD………….but many people DID SEE GOD when he came to earth?
Goodness gracious.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,10:33)
If all we need is “good logic” to understand the scriptures then why did Jesus have to send the “Spirit of truth”?Many think they know by the scriptures who Jesus is, but the scriptures clearly teach without the Holy Spirit of truth to reveal him then they do not know who or what he is!
Keith, are you ADMITTING that the scriptures themselves DON'T teach Jesus as God Almighty, so we need the Spirit of Truth to teach us what is NOT taught in the scriptures?Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2011,21:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,10:33)
If all we need is “good logic” to understand the scriptures then why did Jesus have to send the “Spirit of truth”?Many think they know by the scriptures who Jesus is, but the scriptures clearly teach without the Holy Spirit of truth to reveal him then they do not know who or what he is!
Keith, are you ADMITTING that the scriptures themselves DON'T teach Jesus as God Almighty, so we need the Spirit of Truth to teach us what is NOT taught in the scriptures?
Ha HaNo not at all Mike. I am suggesting that you do not have the Spirit of Truth because you do not see who and what Jesus really is.
WJ
That's nothing but double talk, Keith. The way I worded it is exactly what you're really saying. And it's very telling that you would claim that something else is needed to come to the conclusion that Jesus is God Almighty because you know the scriptures in and of themselves don't teach this.
Quote (barley @ June 23 2011,07:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,14:16) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 31 2011,02:10) Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Another question, If Jesus is the Author than what is God if he is seperate being from christ? You post a scripture that clearly lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN GOD, and then ask that question? Too funny.D, GOD is the One whose right hand Jesus is sitting at. Do you think GOD is sitting at His own right hand?
Good logic and scriptural logic.All: One thing we do know. If Jesus had not come (whoever he is) to earth to teach us the truth about God we would still be lost in sin and darkness with death in control. Whatever Jesus is nobody has ever done the power works he has performed. No body has ever opened the eyes of the blind from birth. No body has ever walked on water, breaking the law of gravity. No body has ever opened the eyes of the blind. No body has ever commanded the natural elements, the wind and water and had them immediately obey him.
No body has ever made water turn into wine, instantly. This is not mere man. Something is different. I would say if there is a God all powerful that this man is the closest of any man ever!! Lets drop name calling, ha ha's, and extremely tight interpretations of scriptures to defend our personsal beliefs. Jesus did it all for us. Thank you lord Jesus, my lord, my God, my friend and my brother! IMO, TK
Tim,
Your view is formed from only the NT because you don't like the God of the OT. But if you WERE to read the OT, you'd find out that others raised the dead to life before Jesus did. You'd find out that others commanded the elements before Jesus did.
Were these others, who did things “no man could do” also God Almighty?
Why can't we all just come to terms with the fact that, like ANY savior God ever sent, Jesus is a servant OF that God, does only what that God tells him to do, and does that by the power OF that God – not his own power.
Jesus wouldn't have the power to save even one hair on his own head if that power had not been given to him by his God and our God.
Hey Mike: We each have our lords and God. I have chosen Jesus for the reasons and truths that I believe he gave us from God. If one follows Jesus only, whether right or wrong his teachings create peace and love unto each person on earth. Jesus is a creator and promoter of peace, love, compassion, kindness and gentleness. It is these aspects of life that are needed in this physical world to survive. Promotion of the old testament that is clearly passed away is religions way of continuing destruction unto annihilation!
Those who believe in controling others, invading other lands to control, and propigating lies and untruths under the guise of freedom and democracy of which neither do we have will create more of exactly what we have. [For any who care: America is not a democracy! We were established as a republic with a democratic created government.(….and unto the republic for which it stands…) The red,white, and blue flag representing America is no longer flown in Federal buildings. The White House and your local Courthouse flies a military flag with gold trim. Admiralty Jurisdiction/Martial Law! The gold trim flag does not represent the constitution of these united States of America. It represents the “U.S.” or “United States” a Federal corporation.]
You cannot kill and destroy to create peace. You can cause fear but not peace. If all the “good” people rise up and kill all of what they call “bad” people, then there will be nothing left on this earth but “killers”!
Quote Jesus wouldn't have the power to save even one hair on his own head if that power had not been given to him by his God and our God. But the POWER OF GOD was given to him. All power in heaven and in earth is given to Jesus. Jesus is the name(authority) above all authority! Its your choice for a god of death/destruction or a God of healing and creation. Whichever one is chosen in mass will dictate the salvation or demise of this mankind! IMO, TK
Tk
Quote Hey Mike: We each have our lords and God. I have chosen Jesus for the reasons and truths that I believe he gave us from God. If one follows Jesus only, whether right or wrong his teachings create peace and love unto each person on earth. Jesus is a creator and promoter of peace, love, compassion, kindness and gentleness. It is these aspects of life that are needed in this physical world to survive. Promotion of the old testament that is clearly passed away is religions way of continuing destruction unto annihilation! Mt 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Mt 10:35 For I have come to turn
“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
Mt 10:36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’is this the peace you are talking about?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2011,01:09) Tk Quote Hey Mike: We each have our lords and God. I have chosen Jesus for the reasons and truths that I believe he gave us from God. If one follows Jesus only, whether right or wrong his teachings create peace and love unto each person on earth. Jesus is a creator and promoter of peace, love, compassion, kindness and gentleness. It is these aspects of life that are needed in this physical world to survive. Promotion of the old testament that is clearly passed away is religions way of continuing destruction unto annihilation! Mt 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Mt 10:35 For I have come to turn
“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
Mt 10:36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’is this the peace you are talking about?
Pierre
Pierre: If you don't have any better insight than the scriptures you have been using lately to attack me, to “show or teach me something” then please don't answer my posts!!Jesus came to bring good will and peace on earth. Jesus also came to Baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire! Anyone with a brain would recognize that there is something good and something bad happening with the truth of Jesus from God.
This is the great and terrible day of the lord. Its great for the truth of God and its terrible for lies and deceptions!!
Jesus is come, with power and a two-edged sword(words) coming from his mouth. To cut away the evil/destruction doctrines and heal the nations. Jesus is Baptising with the Holy Ghost and fire!
The Holy Spirit brings us the good/truth of God and the fire destroys the evil/wrong thinking. This is the spirit baptism for truth. God/spirit/truth are all doctrines unto life, love, forgiveness, kindness, geltleness etc.!
The “fire” or the “double edged sword” are for the morons and idiots that do not have understanding of the truth of God. Doctrines of evil/destruction/killing/wars/ and any or all doctrines that are against life and love. UnGodly doctrines!
Jesus is the prince of peace to those who are of the truth of God. Jesus is the spirit truth which is a blazing fire to those still believing the old way to God.The old religion is burning away!
There is peace and comfort for those in Christ Jesus Truth. There is fire and destruction for all misaligned, dark, un-truth.
When darkness is burned away, the truth, light of Jesus will shine. We are in a war of truth between two
If you disagree with this, that is fine, die in your sin/error. If you agree we are saved together and are at peace with God.
Please don't quote scriptures “at” me, that are completely misunderstood by you and are not applicable. TK
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,12:53) Tim, Your view is formed from only the NT because you don't like the God of the OT. But if you WERE to read the OT, you'd find out that others raised the dead to life before Jesus did. You'd find out that others commanded the elements before Jesus did.
Were these others, who did things “no man could do” also God Almighty?
Why can't we all just come to terms with the fact that, like ANY savior God ever sent, Jesus is a servant OF that God, does only what that God tells him to do, and does that by the power OF that God – not his own power.
Jesus wouldn't have the power to save even one hair on his own head if that power had not been given to him by his God and our God.
Mike: The New Testament is the truth of God. The old testament was is darkness and sin. Not everybody but predominately. God gave the prophets the information of when the truth would come. Some even thousands of years prior to the pure truth of God coming to earth.Jesus came saying,….I am the way throught the truth to the light of God. Jesus said,…..you search the scriptures, and in them ye think ye find eternal life. Yet it is me of which they speak! Jesus was the end of the old world religious order. Jesus ushered in the Kingdom of God, new truth. It is the New will of God. Jesus gave us the new will of God.
The spirit truth came through Jesus like a two-edged sword. It cut away wrong thinking of evil and destruction by unworthy, unclean persons and gave back new life in Christ with new promises and a new way, with a new temple, with total peace between God and man.
A man that returns to the old way having been taught the new way is evidenced in the scripture,…. a dog returns to his vomit…!
If people won't accept peace and love from God then they will remain in sin and death IMO, TK
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
