- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Kerwin said to Gene:
Quote Are you saying Elohim means Almighty because that sure sounds like what you are saying. In some situations that may well work but from what I have heard Elohim is used to refer to false gods and the children of God and in those cases it would not work. Still words do have different meaning in different contexts. Kerwin.
You are correct in saying that words have different meanings in different contexts. The late Christian philosopher and logician Gordon H. Clark said that “a word is defined by the group of words which surround it.”Quote And Elohim said, “Let US make Man in OUR image and after OUR likeness This statement is clear. Elohim is a plural unity that is PERSONAL.
thinker
Hi tt,
“And Elohim said, “Let US make Man in OUR image and after OUR likeness”
Who was our God speaking to?Nick…………Good question thinker thinks He was talking to Jesus, and as i believe you do to. But the word Jesus is not in the text as you have noticed so Where does anyone get the idea it is Jesus that is being talked about here, and when you add in the fact that the LORD said He alone created everything By Himself, saying by myself, where does that leave you , ONE LORD with POWERS created it all by his own POWERS spoken through HIS WORDS with POWERS. “And the word was with God (Powers) and WAS POWERS (GOD).” Just as John said it was, and it (Power expressed through words) was what was in the beginning of all things. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Quote Good question thinker thinks He was talking to Jesus, and as i believe you do to. But the word Jesus is not in the text as you have noticed so Where does anyone get the idea it is Jesus that is being talked about here, As do I also. He wasn't talking to himself. He was talking to someone. Let US make man in OUR image. You never answered Nicks question: Who was he speaking to?
I think he was speaking to the one whom he used to bring about everything–his only begotten son, Jesus. And yes, according to that scripture you mention (what was that scripture called again?–you failed to mention it's name), we could never say Jesus is the creator, for it was God's power at work.It was “through” Jesus that God created everything.
Quote If we adopt your view then we are impersonal also for we are created in the image of these supposed impersonal powers. Can't you see this? If impersonal powers created us in their image then we are also impersonal. As far as I can tell, Gene does not worship a personal God.
Gene seems to worship power.
My First Argument:
Gene wrote:
Quote …the fact that the LORD said He alone created everything By Himself, saying by myself, where does that leave you?
In these scriptures did David defeat his enemies or were his men also involved even though the scriptures only mention that David did it?
2 Samuel 5:19-20(NIV) reads
Quote so David inquired of the LORD, “Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you hand them over to me?” The LORD answered him, “Go, for I will surely hand the Philistines over to you.” So David went to Baal Perazim, and there he defeated them. He said, “As waters break out, the LORD has broken out against my enemies before me.” So that place was called Baal Perazim
and
2:Samuel 8:1(NIV) reads
Quote In the course of time, David defeated the Philistines and subdued them, and he took Metheg Ammah from the control of the Philistines.
I mention these scriptures to point out that it is true that by His word God created the heavens and the earth but that does not tell us the details of how it came to be. I know of nowhere in scripture where it states that the angels were not involved in creation and if the word Elohim means God’s family then it is an indication that they were involved. In addition the words :
Genesis1:26(NIV) reads
Quote Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
are further evidence the angels were involved.
My Second Argument:
Gene wrote
Quote Just as John said it was, and it (Power expressed through words) was what was in the beginning of all things. IMO
I am going to correct you here since John did not say what you are saying he did but rather you are speculating that that is what he meant by the language he chose to use. I on the other hand believe that John was familiar with Jewish philosophy and was using the word “Logos” as a way that was established by the Jewish philosopher Philo who was influenced by Greek thought. Philo taught that “Logos” is the “Divine Word of Reason” by which God created the world. In his treatise on creation Philo also taught that the “Logos” is the image of God and this John 1:1 also states with the words:
John 1:1(NIV) reads
Quote In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Let’s look at another verse of John and replace “word” with “Divine word of God’s Reason”
John 1:14(Kerwin’s Conjecture based on NIV translation) reads
Quote The Divine word of God’s Reason became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth
Accept for the pronoun use which states “his” which we can replace with “its” this sentence makes sense and that is looking at it from our modern point of view and not the view of those that originally viewed the gospel of John.
Now I want to point out that the next verse seems to be speaking of Jesus himself and not the “Divine word of God’s Reason” but I don’t believe the two can be separated after the Word came to inhabit Jesus’ flesh as for all practical purposes Jesus is now the “Divine word of God’s Reason”.
John 1:15(NIV) reads
Quote John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “
Here is the last verse I am addressing but it has two separate points I want to address. The first is that the NIV uses the phrase “God the One and Only” but mentions that is might be translated “the Only Begotten” while some manuscripts actually state “only begotten Son”. I am convinced the footnotes are the proper translation of what was originally written.
John 1:18(NIV) reads
Quote No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
My second point is that God is invisible and so cannot be seen as a man sees and thus Jesus must see him in another way. Since this is true then perhaps some take a clause that seems to speak of proximity too literally just like the word “seen” can be taken too literally. In conclusion just like this verse is speaking of spiritual sight it is also speaking of proximity of the spirits.
My source about Philo.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2009,14:50) Hi tt,
“And Elohim said, “Let US make Man in OUR image and after OUR likeness”
Who was our God speaking to?
Nick,
Recently our daughter lacked the money she needed for something and she did not want to ask us. So I said to my wife, “Let's just give her the money” (meaning “let US” give her the money). Does it matter who was speaking to whom as long as WE act as one? If my wife would have been the one who said “Let US give her the money”, what would that change? After our daughter received the money she did not analyze it all and say, “Okay, I want to know who said what to whom.” She just thanked the both of us.We simply told her that WE were going to give her the money. Do you need to parse words to prove your doctrines? Does common sense ever play a role in your understanding of Scripture? I have difficulty understanding how non-trinitarians survive the real world seeing that language is so ambiguous to them.
How does it affect your life Nick? What does it matter who spoke to whom? It didn't matter to our daughter. All she knew is that WE acted as one and WE gave her the money. She didn't give a hoot about anything else except to thank us.
thinker
thinker…………your theory and others falls apart seeing the LORD GOD said He created all things by His SELF Alone. So how do you plug that into you and others hypotheses. Are we to assume the LORD was lying? I still maintain that GOD or ELOHIM ONLY indicates the POWERS of the LORD. And the word (WORD) in John 1:1 means (uttered intellect) Same as SPIRIT Means. I also maintain that there are Seven Spirits, and Seven Powers that represent (ONE UNIT) of POWER, (GOD). No one has shown me any Proof otherwise so far, but only Speculations based on suppositions, no Proof or facts.
Notice…Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD the maketh all things, that stretched forth the heavens (ALONE); that spread abroad the earth (BY MYSELF).
Isa 45:5…> I am the LORD, and there is (NO) God beside ME:…..>
Isa 45: 6…> That they may know from the rising of the sum, and from the west, that there is (NONE) beside (ME). I am the LORD and there is NON ELSE.
If you or anyone else wants to add another GOD or person into the mix then they have to say the LORD GOD is lying. If anyone can make their theories work without destroying these scripture then produce your proofs otherwise why should I or anyone believe them. There is (ONLY) one TRUE GOD as Jesus and scripture plainly says. IMO
peace and love to you and yours brothers……………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 26 2009,08:15) Quote She didn't give a hoot about anything else except to thank us. Do you mean to imply that your daughter didn't find a need to parse it down to “Unitarian” – “Binarian” – 'Trinitarian” concepts, but simply thanked those who expressed that they had given her the Money? (We simply told her that WE were going to give her the money.)
Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Is it possible that thanking God would suffice without all the rhetoric about isms?
Quote What does it matter who spoke to whom? It didn't matter to our daughter. There is a good possibilty it doesn't matter to God either.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Seeking ………..it truly does matter to the LORD GOD how we view the creation and who He is brother. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene
David……….you said i worshiped (POWER) that is a false statement, I worship the LORD GOD , (HE Exists with powers) is a person, Powers are what He (LORD) Possess. Your conclusions are not based on what I have ever said with regards to my worship.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene said:
Quote David……….The word Elohim is a plural unit of POWERS all acting as one. (March 24 at 13:52, p.9) Gene says today:
Quote thinker…………your theory and others falls apart seeing the LORD GOD said He created all things by His SELF Alone. Which is it Gene? You told David that a “plural unit of POWERS all acting as one” created all things. But today you're saying that God created all things by Himself. Which is it Gene? Did they ALL act as one? Or did God create by Himself?
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 26 2009,09:47) Seeking ………..it truly does matter to the LORD GOD how we view the creation and who He is brother. IMO love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene
Is there more than one God? A triad? Something else?Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Is viewing Him as such insufficient?
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Gene,
Have you stopped to consider that the word “elohiym” is translated to the word “theos” in the New Testament manuscripts? I admit that we have no evidence that the original writers actually wrote in Greek but it is certainly a possibility in at least some cases.
In Hebrew the word “Shadday” translates to Almighty. It is always possible that “Elohiym” was a synonym but that does not explain why it was translated “Theos” by the writers of the New Testament or those who translated their writings to Greek.
My source for Hebrew word meaning Almighty.
Nick…………Jesus said quoting (HEAR 'O' ISRAEL THE (LORD) OUR GOD IS ONE (LORD). Notice not one GOD, but one LORD. The difference here is also seen where it says you shall not take the LORD YOUR GOD'S name in vain . How is the LORD, our GOD? Because He is our POWER. The Hebrews believed it was (HE who EXISTS with POWERS) that was their true GOD or POWERS> There are many God's but (ONLY ONE TRUE LORD GOD). IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Kerwin……….I believe that nearly all the original scriptures were written in the Hebrew language, and then translated into Greek and Latin later. Thats why Jeff Benners work on translating the Hebrew texts into the mechanical way they thought is so important of a work. IMO. The Hebrews Saw GOD as POWERS that brought everything into existence and these POWERS were Under the control of HE WHO EXISTS, WITH POWERS. We need to ask ourselves , why use words like the LORD GOD, if LORD and GOD were the same thing, that would be redundant. NO they both have different meanings. IMO.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………………………gene
Thinker……I never said that GOD created everything by Himself, I said the (LORD) created everything alone and by HIMSELF, And i am not the one saying that I quoted it from the book of Isaiah, Those were not my words but scriptures brother. The LORD created everything using His Elohim (POWERS)>.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………….gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
