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Gene wrote:
Quote Go to the Jeff Benner wed site, he is a Hebrew Scholar and He gives a Hebrew definition of the word ELOHIM and according to His interpretation of the Mechanical translation of the Hebrew Language , He says the Hebrews understood the Word Elohim as (POWERS) and I have to agree with that because it fits other scriptures also. Like the LORD GOD, would be translated as HE EXISTS with POWERS. Check it out and see what you think.
I am reading one of his arguments and he translates “sons of Elohim” to “Sons of the powers” which is like using the word “The powers” to refer to the family of God. In fact that is done several time is the New Testament as well as the old and is used both to refer to the forces of evil and of heaven.
Ephesians 6:12(NIV) reads
Quote For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Colossians 1:16(NIV) reads
Quote For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Daniel 4:35(NIV) reads
Quote All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
Isaiah 24:21(NIV) reads
Quote In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.
He is not actually making an argument about the meaning of Elohim in the excerpt I read so I am not sure what exactly his argument is on that issue but the conclusion seems to be fairly plain for at least one application. He does argue that YHYH means “He exists” and not the Lord. There is a hypothesis that the Old Testament has four main sources and one of those sources is called the Jahwist and is the one that is credited with using YHYH. I am proposing that a sect that we can Jahwist came to dominate the Jewish world and one time and replaced the name of God which was traditionally called “El” because of their interpretation of the command not to use God’s name in vain. We today call God by the name “God“ so in today’s terms YHYH would properly be replaced with God even though it probably does actually mean He exists.
Now I am going to disagree with Mr Benner and say Elohim does not mean “The powers” though of course it can be though “the powers” can replace it as the meanings can be synonymous in some cases just like the NIV replaced “host” with “powers“ in Isaiah 24:21. I am firmly convinced the “Elohim” properly defined will mean El’s Family when referring to a group or a member of El’s family when referring to a single individual who may be God himself. From what I have heard it can also be used to refer to El’s possessions which probably covers the possessions of his family under the paternalistic ideals of the time period.
My source about “Elohim” and “YHYH”.
Quote Gene,
What is your Scriiptural evidence for saying that the plural “elohim” is a reference to “powers” exclusively. It is also a word that denotes “persons.” I am glad that you have pointed out that the word “elohim” is a plural word. This draws attention to my argument. And I do not dispute that it refers to “powers”. But your statement above seems to suggest that these “powers” are non-personal.I agree. While the root word my simply mean “power” or “strength” or “might,” when it is used in the Bible it is used with reference to powerful “ones.”
If you substitute the word “power” in the Bible wherever Elohim appears, it would change the meaning of the Bible a lot. And, it wouldn't make sense.David………I don't think it changes the meaning a lot , if we realize the these Powers are the working force of ONE LORD. God uses these Powers to bring about His purposes in Peoples lives and in the world as a whole. If we read John 1:1 with this in mind we can readily see that John was addressing the word was with Power and was Power, The word ELOHIM is not a NOUN it is a Plural form representing (POWERS) These Powers is what the LORD (HE Exists) used to create everything, and I believe that is what John was bringing out in John 1:1. That in the very beginning it was these POWERS that CREATED everything . Just IMO
love and peace to you and yours………………………………..gene
Kerwin……….Did you see how the early Hebrews used the symbols to represent How they view things. In Jeff Benner's book the Mechanical translation of the book of Genesis He uses (POWERS) for Elohim and it all Fits the texts. Check it out. If you get time to listen to some of His audio tapes i think you will find them quite interesting. He is a Jewish Scholar that believes in Jesus and is a good teacher from what i have hear so far.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………gene
Gene wrote:
Quote Did you see how the early Hebrews used the symbols to represent How they view things.
I do know a little about how the Hebrews used symbols and mentioned that the seven spirits mentioned in Revelation should not be taken literally but should be viewed with Hebrew symbolism regarding numbers in mind since Revelations is a book of prophecy.
Gene wrote:
Quote In Jeff Benner's book the Mechanical translation of the book of Genesis He uses (POWERS) for Elohim and it all Fits the texts.
I am not disagreeing with Jeff Benner except to say that by powers he is referring to angels and or God. In actuality though Elohim is also used to apply to the children of God though they are also referred to as children of Elohim but either is appropriate since the children of the family are also the family. As an example of this I want to point to Psalms which reads:
Psalms 82:6(NIV) reads
Quote “I said, 'You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.'And He did in fact call the Hebrew people Elohim or members of the family of God in the book of law with these words:
Deuteronomy 14:1(NIV) reads
Quote You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead,
In short Elohim is really not a name for God but rather a general application for the members of His family that can be applied to Him because He is a member of His own family. His original Hebrew name is EL and to avoid saying His name in vain some replace it with the words “He exists“. The words translated Lord God would probably properly be said to be God of God’s family.
I disagree with your take on the seven spirits mentioned only in Revelations as I believe those seven spirits are referring to seven angels and not to seven parts of the Holy Spirit. I am also prone to believe it is referring particularly to the seven angels of the seven churches. I am not positive of that but the seven seals seem to only be related to four or possibly five spirits; which also include the angel of Death who was also sent to Egypt during the time of the plagues. It is also possible the two mentions of seven spirits are speaking of two different groups of angels.
Kerwin……..Spirit as explained by Jesus is the (WORDS) He Spoke to them, these are (NOT) angles or messenger beings as you and thinker are saying. While a angle or messenger can bring a Word which is Spirit, as Jesus Did, that does not make the message the same as the messenger or angle bringing it. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Gene wrote:
Quote Spirit as explained by Jesus is the (WORDS) He Spoke to them
Are you saying that spirit is used to mean:
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Reads
Quote The actual though unstated sense or significance of something:
Gene wrote:
Quote these are (NOT) angles or messenger beings
Can you present the evidence and your argument of why you reached that conclusion?
Gene wrote:
Quote While a angle or messenger can bring a Word which is Spirit, as Jesus Did, that does not make the message the same as the messenger or angle bringing it.
Is this in reference to the saying that “Jesus is the Word“?
I personally believe “Word” is a poor translation of the Greek word “Logos” as I attempted to start a discussion of the subject here.
One argument of Philo whose philosophy I am addressing is that “The Logos is the first-born and the eldest and chief of the angels.”. That certainly sounds like Jesus to me though he is not an angel himself but he the chief of angels as God made him King of everything in heaven as well as on earth.
Quote God uses these Powers to bring about His purposes –gene
Or don't you mean “powers” used these powers to bring about…..
The problem is, when we see the word God, it is definitely referring to an intelligent being, with characteristics.
The word “power” in no way explains most of these characteristics. One of God's main characteristics, is that he is abundant in power, true. But he is also wise, loving, just, kind, etc.The word power is nonpersonal, and cannot in itself convey these ideas.
David……….The word Elohim is a plural unit of POWERS all acting as one. I believe there are seven intellects connected with power and example would be Jesus is His present state is represent as having these seven (powers) symbolized as Horns and attached to them are seven eyes symbolized as Spirits (intellects) . And these seven go into all the earth. David if you get time go the the Jeff Benner site and read some of what he has to say regarding this. He wrote a book on the mechanical translation of Genesis which i had but sent it to Adam. And in it he used the word Elohim as POWERS, and the LORD as He Exists. and when you put it together the LORD GOD, you get He Exists with powers and according to him this is the way the ancient Hebrews understood the words. interesting reading, check it out if you get time.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene
Kerwin……..i don't know what the dictionaries say about the word (word) but Jesus said the words i am telling you (ARE) SPIRIT. So i believe that, and apply it to what Spirit is . And if we brake down what a word is we find it is the expression of ones intellect, So the words of GOD express His intellect to us and the words of a man express His intellect to us. So when it says to try the Spirits to see if they are of GOD , it means to try what someone is saying another words his words. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Gene wrote:
Quote i don't know what the dictionaries say about the word (word) but Jesus said the words i am telling you (ARE) SPIRIT
It is true that Jesus does not always speak clearly as I am convinced he expects his listeners to be listening for what God means and so they are not misled by the letter of the teachings.
John 6:60-66(NIV) reads
Quote On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Still I am not seeing how you connect this to the seven spirits mentioned in Revelations. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Are you saying that Jeff Benner's powers are words? Are you saying that God is the Lord of words?
Kerwin………..The LORD may very be the LORD of Words or intellect, But what i am saying is that the LORDS (WORDS) are connect with POWERS as Genesis say . GOD said let there be and it was done (how) was it not by his powers. John 1:1 also agree with this , in the beginning was the (WORD) or expressed intellect and the word was with GOD (powers) and the word was power or GOD. Now look at Jesus in revelations He is pictures as a (SLAIN) Lamb (he poured out his soul unto death), and has now recieved the seven eyes (spirit intellects) or eyes, and he also has recieved along with them the seven powers (Horns) and with these He will rule the earth when He comes. There is no misunderstanding of what Jesus said and meant when He said the Words He spoke are Spirit as far as i can tell that fits with all the rest of scriptures, it you understand what a Spirit is. A spirit is nothing more then the expression of intellect rather of GOD or man or any other creature. IMO
love and peace to you and yours………………………………………………gene
Gene said:
Quote David……….The word Elohim is a plural unit of POWERS all acting as one. Gene,
You are helping Trinitarians more than you think bro. For Trinitarians also say that elohim means a “plural unit acting as one.” The difference between you and I here is that for you these “powers” are impersonal but for me they are personal.If we adopt your view then we are impersonal also for we are created in the image of these supposed impersonal powers. Can't you see this? If impersonal powers created us in their image then we are also impersonal.
thinker
Thinker……………….The powers of the LORD are very personal to him they, the (POWERS) are the (ONLY) TRUE GOD as Jesus plainly said. Thinker the word (ONLY True God) means no other (TRUE GOD) right, And the word (THOU) means not the person speaking right, if we are to believe what Jesus Said. Jesus used the word (TRUE) because there are many gods or lesser powers, but only one (TRUE) GOD or POWER. and that is the FATHER also known as THE LORD (our) GOD OR POWER. The LORD WAS THE ONLY TRUE POWER OF ISRAEL.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………………gene
Gene,
Are you saying Elohim means Almighty because that sure sounds like what you are saying. In some situations that may well work but from what I have heard Elohim is used to refer to false gods and the children of God and in those cases it would not work. Still words do have different meaning in different contexts.
Going on that line of reason the seven spirits from Revelations would not be persons but instead would be God’s powers which is not to say he has a literal seven powers.
You are also saying that the word in John 1:1 is speaking of God’s powers and not of a being.
Philo taught that the Logos was the creative principle. Do you agree with him?
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 25 2009,14:32) Thinker……………….The powers of the LORD are very personal to him they, the (POWERS) are the (ONLY) TRUE GOD as Jesus plainly said. Thinker the word (ONLY True God) means no other (TRUE GOD) right, And the word (THOU) means not the person speaking right, if we are to believe what Jesus Said. Jesus used the word (TRUE) because there are many gods or lesser powers, but only one (TRUE) GOD or POWER. and that is the FATHER also known as THE LORD (our) GOD OR POWER. The LORD WAS THE ONLY TRUE POWER OF ISRAEL. love and peace to you and yours………………………………………gene
Gene,
You are engaging in double talk bro. You have said all along that the “powers” are impersonal. One needs only to read your first posts on this thread. But now you're saying that the “powers” are indeed personal but only to God. You are admitting that the “powers” are personal without wanting to admit it.Your double talk is evident also by the fact that you keep speaking of the “one and only true God.” But in the next breath you you say that “Elohim is a plural unit of powers all acting as one“,
You said to David:
Quote David……….The word Elohim is a plural unit of POWERS all acting as one. One needs only to read my first posts on this thread and see that I have said all along that Elohim refers to God as a “plural unity.” Are you becoming a Trinitarian kicking and fighting along the way?
Your bro,
thinkerthinker……….dear brother, trust me i am no Trinitarian, Because i believe that God the Father is the (only) True God (power) and no one else is. You said that i believe the word GOD is impersonal and your are right (IF) you apply the word by it self as the word (POWER) would be impersonal if applied by it self. But if you are applying that to a person then it becomes personal as the LORD OUR GOD< then it becomes personal to HIM. It all depends on the context of use.
Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………..gene
Kerwin………Almighty is the same as saying Powers, it indicates the powers of the LORD. You said that it also represented false Gods, and therefore conclude it could no just apply to the one LORD GOD, and it does represent powers of false religions, they did have powers over those who believed in them, even to the point of them offering up their children to them in sacrifice, yes these false teachings do indeed have powers in the minds of their believers that is why The Lord hates Idolatry because it is power over the minds of those who believe in them however false they are. Elohim can apply to all kinds of Powers, but unto us there is (ONLY ONE (TRUE) GOD). There are many (false) GODS OR POWERS but only ONE TRUE GOD. We are called to reflect those true Powers in our lives. This is how the true powers will be in all and through all. But remember reflecting or (IMAGING) them does not mean we (ARE) them.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Kerwin…………remember when Jesus said after that you have recieved (POWER) from on HIGH. May our Father who is our GOD (POWER) work powerfully in all our lives brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 26 2009,04:01) thinker……….dear brother, trust me i am no Trinitarian, Because i believe that God the Father is the (only) True God (power) and no one else is. You said that i believe the word GOD is impersonal and your are right (IF) you apply the word by it self as the word (POWER) would be impersonal if applied by it self. But if you are applying that to a person then it becomes personal as the LORD OUR GOD< then it becomes personal to HIM. It all depends on the context of use. Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………..gene
Gene,
I love you brother BUT you make no sense.thinker
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