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Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 20 2009,09:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2009,07:50) Hi WJ,
So all things are FROM GOD and THROUGH him and TO HIM.
All these things are not said of the Son.But then the Son is the Son of God.
Nick,
Have you not read Colossians 3:17? Speaking of JESUS Paul said,Quote All things were created BY Him and FOR Him thinker
Hi tt,
So not FROM HIM?
He is not the SOURCEI am still interested in Hebrews 1:1-3 and its correct translation and interpretation.
Hebrews 1:1-2(ASV) reads
Quote God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
I admit that I am not skilled in using a Greek Lexicon so I depend on you testing my findings to make sure I have got things correct.
My attention is drawn to the word “made” which I take to mean “create” in the English language but the actual Greek word that has been translated “made” is “laleo” which means:
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others reads:
Quote 1.to utter a voice or emit a sound
2.to speak
a.to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b.to utter articulate sounds
3.to talk
4.to utter, tell
5.to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a.to speakThis same source tells me that of 273 times “laleo” is used in scripture the translators of the American Standard Version chose to translate it to “made” only once. In fact laleo is used three times in Hebrews 1:1-2 and in both the other cases it is translated to “spoke” and “spoken”. The question I have is why didn’t the translators follow their normal convention and translate “laleo” to “spoke to” so Hebrews 1:1-2 would read:
Hebrews 1:1-2(Kerwin’s proposed alternative translation) reads
Quote God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he spoke to the worlds;
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2009,01:42) I am still interested in Hebrews 1:1-3 and its correct translation and interpretation. Hebrews 1:1-2(ASV) reads
Quote God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
I admit that I am not skilled in using a Greek Lexicon so I depend on you testing my findings to make sure I have got things correct.
My attention is drawn to the word “made” which I take to mean “create” in the English language but the actual Greek word that has been translated “made” is “laleo” which means:
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others reads:
Quote 1.to utter a voice or emit a sound
2.to speak
a.to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b.to utter articulate sounds
3.to talk
4.to utter, tell
5.to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a.to speakThis same source tells me that of 273 times “laleo” is used in scripture the translators of the American Standard Version chose to translate it to “made” only once. In fact laleo is used three times in Hebrews 1:1-2 and in both the other cases it is translated to “spoke” and “spoken”. The question I have is why didn’t the translators follow their normal convention and translate “laleo” to “spoke to” so Hebrews 1:1-2 would read:
Hebrews 1:1-2(Kerwin’s proposed alternative translation) reads
Quote God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he spoke to the worlds;
Hi Kerwin,
The actual word for made here in Hebrews 1-2 is not what you state. It is actually “epoihsen” which is a form of the word “poieo” (Strong's 4160) which has nothing to do with speaking. lalhsav (Strong's 2980) means spoke and is not used for “made.”Here is the Greek.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1Polumerwv kai polutropwv palai o qeov lalhsav toiv patrasin en toiv profhtaiv2 ep' esxatou twn hmerwn toutwn elalhsen hmin en uiw, on eqhken klhronomon pantwn, di' ou kai epoihsen touv aiwnav;
NT:4160
poieo(poy-eh'-o); apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):
NT:2980
laleo(lal-eh'-o); a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words:(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
I'm glad that you asked for clarity Kerwin. That error could lead to utter confusion. I hope it is clear to you now.
God bless,
LUQuote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2009,17:42) I am still interested in Hebrews 1:1-3 and its correct translation and interpretation. Hebrews 1:1-2(ASV) reads
Quote God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
I admit that I am not skilled in using a Greek Lexicon so I depend on you testing my findings to make sure I have got things correct.
My attention is drawn to the word “made” which I take to mean “create” in the English language but the actual Greek word that has been translated “made” is “laleo” which means:
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others reads:
Quote 1.to utter a voice or emit a sound
2.to speak
a.to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b.to utter articulate sounds
3.to talk
4.to utter, tell
5.to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a.to speakThis same source tells me that of 273 times “laleo” is used in scripture the translators of the American Standard Version chose to translate it to “made” only once. In fact laleo is used three times in Hebrews 1:1-2 and in both the other cases it is translated to “spoke” and “spoken”. The question I have is why didn’t the translators follow their normal convention and translate “laleo” to “spoke to” so Hebrews 1:1-2 would read:
Hebrews 1:1-2(Kerwin’s proposed alternative translation) reads
Quote God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he spoke to the worlds;
Hi KerwinI think you better check again.
The Greek word for “made” is Poieo, poieÑw which means…
to make
with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
to be the authors of, the cause
to make ready, to prepare
to produce, bear, shoot forth
to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self
to make a thing out of something
to (make i.e.) render one anything
to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
to (make i.e.) declare one anything
to put one forth, to lead him out
to make one do something
cause one to
to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
to do
to act rightly, do well
to carry out, to execute
to do a thing unto one
to do to one
with designation of time: to pass, spend
to celebrate, keep
to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
to perform: to a promiseFound here…
And Here…
Also it would make no sense if he “spoke” to time or ages, aiōn.
That the son took part in the creation of all things is confirmed by the writer of Hebrews in verse 10.
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2009,09:41) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 20 2009,09:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2009,07:50) Hi WJ,
So all things are FROM GOD and THROUGH him and TO HIM.
All these things are not said of the Son.But then the Son is the Son of God.
Nick,
Have you not read Colossians 3:17? Speaking of JESUS Paul said,Quote All things were created BY Him and FOR Him thinker
Hi tt,
So not FROM HIM?
He is not the SOURCE
Nick,
First, non-trinitarianism could not exist without parsing and dissecting words the way you have done. Paul said that all things were created BY and FOR Jesus. This is not difficult to comprehend. Little children do not have such difficulty understanding words. It's when they grow up and formulate their paradigms that simple statements become so complex.Second, give a New Testament Scripture that says that the Father created.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2009,10:58) Hi tt,
Do you really think God did not know?
Was He not just exposing their deceit?
Nick,
Yes! I really think that YHWH Elohim did not know where Adam was exactly. But what about the fact that YHWH was walking? Does this not infer that He assumed human form?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,08:42) Hi tt,
The Spirit of Christ was the rock .
Nick,
Paul did not say that the “spirit” of Christ was the rock. He said that “the rock was Christ.” Are you suggesting that the spirit of a person is not the person?thinker
Hi tt,
Jesus is in heaven alongside the Father.Yet he promised wherever two or three are gathered in his name he was there with them.
And he said his Father and he would return to be with the brothers when both now reside in heaven.
How can it be?
By the SPIRIT, the life in the body, the sap in the vine.
Lightenup wrote:
Quote The actual word for made here in Hebrews 1-2 is not what you state. It is actually “epoihsen” which is a form of the word “poieo” (Strong's 4160) which has nothing to do with speaking. lalhsav (Strong's 2980) means spoke and is not used for “made.”
And
Worshiping Jesus wrote
Quote I think you better check again.
The Greek word for “made” is Poieo, poieÑw which means…
Interesting I have found a source that agrees with you while the source I first linked to insists the correct word is “laleo“. That means I have two sources that actually are conflicting on what they say the Greek words in that sentence are. I wonder if that means that different Greek transcripts say different things? That sure does make researching these things difficult.
Nick………..The LORD GOD (He Exists with POWERS) is the Spirit , “For God is a Spirit and He who worships Him must worship HIM in Spirit and truth. (WHY) because GOD IS SPIRIT>Not the Lord Jesus Christ, He (HAS) the Seven Spirits of GOD (IN) Him but he himself is not the Spirits. When you use the word LORD you need to qualify what LORD you are talking About, there are different LORDS. There is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Lord GOD Almighty, different lords.
love and peace……………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 21 2009,10:39) Nick………..The LORD GOD (He Exists with POWERS) is the Spirit , “For God is a Spirit and He who worships Him must worship HIM in Spirit and truth. (WHY) because GOD IS SPIRIT>Not the Lord Jesus Christ, He (HAS) the Seven Spirits of GOD (IN) Him but he himself is not the Spirits. When you use the word LORD you need to qualify what LORD you are talking About, there are different LORDS. There is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Lord GOD Almighty, different lords. love and peace……………………………………………………..gene
Gene,
You're confused.thinker
I have had some time to look into the matter and I believe my source at crosswalk.com is in error since it's post on “laleo” for the NASB does not agree with its post on “laleo” for the KJV. I appreciate the correction that prevents me from going to far off on a wild goose chase that waste more of my resources that I already have.
I am assuming “Poieo” is the correct word and translating it either to “fulfill” or “show” seems more appropriate than to “make” as these two scriptures demonstrate.
Romans 16:26(NIV) reads:
Quote Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—
and
Ephesians 2:7(NIV) reads:
Quote in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Hidden in ages of the past but shown to the present ages.
1 Corinthians 10:11(NIV) reads:
Quote These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
and
Ephesians 1:9-10(NIV) reads:
Quote And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
As you can see the use of either “show” or “fulfill” would be well backed up by the context of scripture. So the question that comes to mind is “how well is “make” backed up by other scriptures?”.
Now to address an earlier point of this discussion before I became sidetracked on a fairly relevant issue and then went on a couple of wild goose chases to boot.
Hebrews 9:26(NIV) reads:
Quote Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Once again Hebrews clearly states Jesus “appeared once” and at the “end of the ages”. Other scriptures confirm this by stating that Jesus was a hidden mystery and that God’s grace through Jesus Christ was hidden in the past. So Jesus was not seen in the past contrary to the claims of some.
Source for “Aion”.
Source for “Poieo”
Nick………..There are Seven spirits of God as scripture says these seven Spirits are the Spirits that go to and fro through the earth, they are the expressed intellect of one GOD. And are expressed through words, John 1:1, in the beginning was the (word) and the word was with GOD and the (WORD was GOD). These seven Spirits are Now all in Jesus as scripture says. But they can be in others also in fact they can come to be in all and work through all. and when that Happens then GOD will Be in ALL and through all.
As i have told you before Nick if you understood what a Spirit is this would all make sense to you. A Spirit is simply (intellect) and they influence our thinking and when a person speaks He or She expresses those Spirits,. Thats why we can try them when a person speaks because they express the intellect the person has, These Spirits (intellects)effects his speech and his or her behavior. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………gene
Gene wrote:
Quote The LORD GOD (He Exists with POWERS) is the Spirit
I am not seeing how you reach that understanding. I also have trouble believing “Powers” is a legitimate definition for Elohim which has the root “EL” which is a name of God that predated Yahweh. It seems to be the Elohim probably mean’s God’s family and when used in singular merely means one member of that family that may be God himself. I have heard it I can also be applied to God’s possessions or most likely the possessions of his family but that probably has something to do with Hebrew culture of certain times. I suppose you could refer to God’s family as “powers” but I do not think that is what you are doing.
The Thinker is attempting to forcefully limit the meaning of Elohim to three individuals which is absurd as it is used to indicate either a single or a group and if a certain number like three was meant then other words would be used to indicate that. I know of no where that is done in scripture and The Thinker has failed to provide one.
kerwin……..Go to the Jeff Benner wed site, he is a Hebrew Scholar and He gives a Hebrew definition of the word ELOHIM and according to His interpretation of the Mechanical translation of the Hebrew Language , He says the Hebrews understood the Word Elohim as (POWERS) and I have to agree with that because it fits other scriptures also. Like the LORD GOD, would be translated as HE EXISTS with POWERS. Check it out and see what you think.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
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