Elohim

Participant

Gene said:

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Jesus said the words He poke to us are spirit and they are life. What was SPIRIT and Life (WORDS), The FATHERS WORDS, not his WORDS. To lay clam to what is God the FATHERS is to steal glory, and this is what trinitarians do they take the WORDS of the Father and apply them to Jesus, Something Jesus never did.

Gene,
You are correct that the words Jesus spoke were the words of His Father. But you are incorrect to say that trinitarians “steal” the Father's glory. You are incorrect because you give only one side of the truth. The other side of the truth is that jesus existed in the form of God but laid aside His glory and subjected Himself to God. He did this for our sakes.

Jesus anticipated the time when He would return to the glory He had with the Father before the world began

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And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I HAD WITH YOU before the world began (John 17:5)

Jesus asked His Father to glorify Him with the glory He shared with His Father before the world began. If Jesus was a mere man then this was a sinful prayer for God said that He would not share His glory with another.

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I will not give My glory to another (Isaiah 48:11)

Jesus laid aside the glory He shared with the Father. So He spoke the words of the Father. This is the first part of it. But He asked to have that glory back. That's the other part of it. For Him to ask the Father to share in His glory was sinful if he was a mere man.

You give only half the truth. And half truth is a falsehood.

thinker

March 15, 2009 at 10:09 pm#124929

http://www.israelofgod.org/genesis1.htm

Participant

theodorej said:

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To pray for wisdom and understanding is a futile exercise if the Scriptures are ambiguous. To ask for humility and the willingness to let go of long held beliefs would be rewarding.

Back to your explanation that “elohim” means “family.” Let's again look at Genesis 1:26 in view of your definition

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And the Family said “let US make man in OUR image.

The variants of non-trinitarian interpretations just keeps mounting up:

1. Gene says that “elohim” means “powers” and not persons.

2. t8 says that “elohim” means men or angels

3. Then t8 said that there are “many” explanations

4. Marty said that God revealed to him personally what “elohim” means.

5. Now you say that “elohim” means “family.”

Non-trinitarians just can't give a uniform explanation.

thinker

March 15, 2009 at 11:34 pm#124930

SEEKING

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 15 2009,15:09)

Non-trinitarians just can't give a uniform explanation.

thinker

Trinitarians and others claim that the Hebrew noun ‘Elohim’, rendered ‘God’ (Strong’s #430) in the first clause of Genesis 1:26, denotes more than one God Person (typically thought of or explained as “3 in 1” or “2 in 1” as in “one” family). In support they point to the second clause of verse 26, “Let us make man in our image”, being plural. It is true that in both English and Hebrew this second clause contains the plural subject ‘us’ and that this governs the plural verb ‘make’- But these are not governed by ‘Elohim’ (God) of the first clause. What is not realized, or otherwise mentioned in this issue is that in the first clause, “And God said”, ‘Elohim’ governs the singular Hebrew verb ‘’amer’ (Strong’s # 559), which is rendered ‘said’ in English. So linguistically there is no basis for claiming that ‘Elohim’ denotes, represents, or contains more than one God Person (entity).
It is also claimed that the Hebrew ‘Elohim’ is a uniplural or collective noun and that such nouns (e.g. the English noun ‘crowd’) often govern singular verbs. This claim contradicts leading Hebrew grammars, which claim that throughout the OT and when referring to the true God, the Hebrew noun 'Elohim' behaves as a singular noun, and governs only singular verbs, singular adjectives and singular pronouns. And only when 'elohim' refers to a number of pagan gods or humans (e.g. judges), that it behaves as a plural noun; and then governs plural verbs, plural adjectives and plural pronouns. So grammatically ‘Elohim’ is never a collective (uniplural) noun. That in reference to the true God, the noun ‘Elohim’ is singular, is well illustrated in Genesis 1:29, where this noun governs the singular pronoun ‘I’.
Here follows a selection of Hebrew grammars from which these claims may be further verified: Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar edited and enlarged by E. Kautzsch, 2nd English edition by A.E. Cowley, paragraph 124 (g); Weingreen's Hebrew Grammar under 'God' in its English-Hebrew vocabulary; C.L Seow's A Grammar for Biblical Hebrew, 1992 printing, the vocabulary on page 19; James D Martin's Davidson's Introductory Grammar, 27th edition, 1995 reprint, page 52.
So grammatically, too, there is no justification for claiming that in Genesis 1:26 'God' (Elohim) denotes more than one God Person. Indeed throughout the OT ‘Elohim’ always denotes just one God Person.

Note: The author of these articles listed below is an American now living in Israel. He is fluent in English, Modern Hebrew, and Biblical Hebrew. He is a Dead Sea Scrolls scholar and Semitic language expert

March 16, 2009 at 1:06 am#124933

GeneBalthrop

Participant

thinker……….Jesus said God is a Spirit, and we are told there are seven spirits of GOD. So that does show a uniplural composition. And according to the Hebrew scholar Jeff Beanner , GOD is a uniplural word Meaning (POWERS) a plural form of Powers. This agree with idea of the seven spirits (INTELLECTS) representing ONE TRUE GOD> or Group of Powers all are controlled by (ONE) LORD.

Just ask yourself why would scripture say the (LORD OUR GOD) if LORD and GOD meant the same WORD. Jesus as i have quoted Here many times Said “Hear O Israel the LORD our (GOD) is ONE LORD, NOT ONE GOD> Why did he quote that, and Why did He said no you not you are Gods, Why did the Lord say to Moses you shall be a God to him. Why were the judges and Magistrates call GODS. Is it not because there can be many Gods (POWERS) but unto Us Only ONE (True GOD) or true POWER. Even though there are many other Powers but only one (TRUE) POWER to Us and He is the LORD our GOD or POWER. If we deny this then we must say Jesus was lying, when he said have you not read that it says you are Gods. Jesus showed that these Powers were nit limited unto (ONE) Person Only. But could imply anyone who has been given powers fro GOD Like judges or magistrates and rulers etc. The simplest understanding of the word is POWERS in my opinion.

love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………..gene

March 16, 2009 at 4:28 pm#124954

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Mar. 16 2009,13:06)

love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………..gene

Gene,
For the thousandth time it clearly says this:

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And the Gods said “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness

thinker

March 16, 2009 at 5:04 pm#124959

Participant

The Thinker wrote:

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For the thousandth time it clearly says this:

Proposed hypothesis for correct translation of Genesis 1:26 by The Thinker

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And the Gods said “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness

I am going to say that is a mistranslation as there is but one God who does have many powers. So chances are it states:

Alternative Proposed hypothesis for correct translation of Genesis 1:26 by Kerwin

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And the Powers said “Let US make man in our Image, after Our Likeness.

That brings up an interesting hypothesis since the scripture may be both the angels and God speaking. There is certainly a good argument to support that in comparative religions since you can find a link between the religions of the Canaanites who considered the angels the children of their main God. I am sure the link probably extends to Babylonia, Egypt and even further if you can find the trail that Satan has obscured so well over time as the religions of those areas left the true path. I am kind of interesting what the following passage would translate as.

Genesis 3:22(NIV) reads:

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And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

We both appear to be engaging in speculation that seems to vary with Jewish and Christian traditions.

I am not really understanding where Gene is going with this one but I have not followed the discussion very closely.

March 17, 2009 at 3:35 pm#125019

Participant

Kerwin's said:
Proposed hypothesis for correct translation of Genesis 1:26 by The Thinker

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And the Gods said “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness

Alternative Proposed hypothesis for correct translation of Genesis 1:26 by Kerwin

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And the Powers said “Let US make man in our Image, after Our Likeness.

Then Kerwin said:

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That brings up an interesting hypothesis since the scripture may be both the angels and God speaking.

Kerwin,

I see two at least three problems with your “powers/angels” hypothesis

1. We were not created in the image of angels but in the image of the creator Gods.

2. You allow for angels to participate in creation but not God's own Son. This cannot be for we are told this:

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God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom He also MADE THE WORLDS(Heb. 1:1-3)

Are you saying that God included angels in creating the world but did not include His own Son.

3. YHWH was ignorant of Adam's whereabouts and asked him “Where are you?”

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Then YHWH Elohim called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?” (Gen. 3:9)

Who is the ignorant “YHWH” in this passage? Is it angels or Jesus?

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 6:29 pm#125038

Participant

Hi tt,
How many gods do you serve?

March 17, 2009 at 6:53 pm#125040

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2009,06:29)

Hi tt,
How many gods do you serve?

I serve the Trinity. You know this already.

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 6:54 pm#125042

Participant

Hi tt,
Are they three gods?

March 17, 2009 at 9:42 pm#125064

Participant

Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 16 2009,11:34)

thethinker,Mar. wrote:

Non-trinitarians just can't give a uniform explanation.

thinker

Seeking posted:

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In other words, Seeking's “scholar” picks and chooses. If Elohim is “never” a collective (uniplural) noun we may expect an abundance of examples which, by the way he does not provide. This scholar chooses to allow that Elohim must govern the singular pronoun “I” in verse 29 but not allow Elohim to govern the plural pronouns “us” and “our” in verse 26. It certainly appears to be a selective grammar to me. In verse 26 Elohim governs the plural pronouns. In verse 29 Elohim governs the singular pronoun. No picking and choosing!

Then there is the problem that 3:9 presents

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Then YHWH Elohim called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

The Person speaking here cannot be the Father for the Father knows all things. The Father would not have needed to ask “Where are you?” So if it is not the Son or the Holy Spirit speaking, then who is it?

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 10:58 pm#125074

Participant

Hi tt,
Do you really think God did not know?
Was He not just exposing their deceit?

March 18, 2009 at 5:39 am#125098

Participant

The Thinker wrote:

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Are you saying that God included angels in creating the world but did not include His own Son.

I am not saying that since it is an issue that is not really important to my hypothesis as Jesus may actually be included in the term elohim without excluding the angels. Still your point regarding Hebrews 1:1-3 is a good question even though it assumes that I am more informed than I actually am but it would distract me from by current course of study to seek out the answer to it at this time and as I pointed out it is not needed to test my current hypothesis.

The Thinker wrote:

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Who is the ignorant “YHWH” in this passage? Is it angels or Jesus?

This is a question I can answer by the process of elimination.

1)God is all knowing so it certainly cannot be Him personally unless he is asking a rhetorical question.
2)God exists everywhere which is necessary for our existence and the individual described does not.
3)Jesus did not speak to the people until the last days so it cannot be him as this individual speaks in the early days of creation.
4)An angel may well lack the knowledge if God chose not to reveal it to him for God’s own reasons so it well be an angel.

This brings me to the conclusion that the individual in question was an angel serving God’s purpose much like the one that appeared in the Burning Bush and whom I believe was also referred to as elohim.

Exodus 3:2-6(NIV) reads:

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There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.” When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.” “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

The Thinker wrote:

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We were not created in the image of angels but in the image of the creator Gods.

You told me we were created in the image of the powers which I am also told includes the angels. As for my personal beliefs “I believe the angels are also created in the image of God” and except for those who went astray they still remain in that image today. In fact with the angels you may have an argument for the preexistence of Jesus since they all have the Holy Spirit within them but are merely sons of God as that spirit dwells in them through faith in Jesus Christ. Still you are moving into what I believe our complicated realms of knowledge that includes whether God is subject to time of instead stands outside of it.

I have to point out we have different concepts of what the image of God means as I believe it means to be truly righteous and holy as God is since that is what is important to God. You have other beliefs which you have enumerated elsewhere.

March 18, 2009 at 6:32 am#125102

Participant

Kerwin wrote:

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Kerwin,
The text says that it was YHWH Elohim that was walking in the garden calling out of Adam

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And they had heard the sound of YHWH Elohim walking in the garden… and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH Elohim. But YHWH Elohim called out to the man and said to Him, “Where are you?”

It is clear that God Himself had assumed human form and had been looking for Adam and his wife. The question “Where are you?” is not rhetorical. Therefore, it was a member of the Godhead other than the Father. For the Father knows all things and woud not have said, “Where are you?”

Btw, the “messenger” of YHWH who appeared as a fire in the burning bush was also YHWH because Moses said to YHWH,

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Then Moses answered, “But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, 'YHWH did not appear to you.' ” YHWH said to him…. (Ex. 4:1-2)

Moses was going to tell the children of Israel that YHWH (not a messenger) had appeared to him and that they would not believe him. Therefore, the “messenger” of YHWH is also YHWH. We know that the Father never appeared in human or in any form in the old testament. Therefore, it must have been YHWH Jesus who appeared. Jesus appeared in human form in the fiery furnace (Daniel).

thinker

March 18, 2009 at 7:40 am#125107

Participant

The Thinker wrote:

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Moses was going to tell the children of Israel that YHWH (not a messenger) had appeared to him and that they would not believe him. Therefore, the “messenger” of YHWH is also YHWH. We know that the Father never appeared in human or in any form in the Old Testament. Therefore, it must have been YHWH Jesus who appeared. Jesus appeared in human form in the fiery furnace (Daniel).

I assumed you believed Hebrews 1:1-3 when it clearly states that Jesus did not speak to the people of God until the last days and that clearly is not in the Garden of Eden or for that matter in the Burning Bush. I cannot be sure about the figure observed in the fiery furnace since I am not sure if the figure observed spoke or not but I do say that you have no evidence that figure was Jesus.

I agree to you that The Father who Jesus as well as I calls God is not observed in human form in the Old Testament and I do not believe he would appear in human form for the simple reason it is written:

Acts 17:28(NIV) reads:

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For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

And he will not deprive us of our lives and being to do such an unimportant thing. He has agents (the angels) to do such things.

My source, which is slightly more reliable than hearsay, tells me that Elohim was used in Exodus 3:4 and the passage also clearly states angel unlike the one in Genesis we were discussing which is why I used it in my argument. But to address your point we are told that:

Exodus 19:16:22(NIV) reads:

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On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently, and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.
The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up and the LORD said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the LORD and many of them perish. Even the priests, who approach the LORD, must consecrate themselves, or the LORD will break out against them.”

And yet later we are told:

Galatians 3:19(NIV) reads:

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What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

This shows that despite scripture clearly stating it was the Lord who descended, spoke, and met Mosses it also states it was angels that put the Law into effect.

My conclusion therefore is that in the way of speaking of a people that they credit the source as speaking and acting when His agent does so for Him. So when an angel is acting and speaking for God they say it is God who does and states it. Still if the term Elohim was used then they may just mean that a member of the heavenly host is doing it though I favor the previous conclusion.

March 18, 2009 at 3:39 pm#125117

Participant

Kerwin said:

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Kerwin,
Please read the statement more carefully. It says that God spoke to the fathers through the prophets. Yet we know that were many times that God spoke to the fathers without a prophet. So your strict and narrow interpretation which excludes the Son from speaking to the old testament fathers must also exclude all other messengers at that time.

The statement does not exclude Christ from speaking in the old testament anymore than the apostles can be excluded from speaking in the last days. If “by the prophets” necessarily excludes all other messengers in the old testament, then “by His Son” necessarily excludes all other messengers in the last days.

If Christ was not involved in redemptive history at all in the OT then please explain this

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And they all drank from that spiritual rock which followed them. And that rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4)

Kerwin said:

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Yes we are in agreement. The Father did not appear in human form ever. But YHWH Elohim did appear in human form. The narrative clearly identifies the One walking in the garden as “YHWH Elohim.”

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And they heard the sound of YHWH Elohim walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH Elohim among the trees of the garden. Then YHWH Elohim called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you.”

This was clearly a manifestation of YHWH Elohim in human form because it says that they heard Him walking. IT WAS REAL TO THEIR SENSE OF HEARING. This was a physical manifestation of YHWH Elohim! It says also that YHWH Elohim inquired as to their whereabouts. You suggested that this was a rhetorical question. But YHWH Elohim's “walking” in the garden along with the fact that He was “calling” and inquiring as to the whereabouts of Adam strongly suggest that YHWH Elohim did not know where Adam was exactly.

We agree that YHWH Elohim in the narrative cannot be the Father for the Father knows all things. Therefore, He must be another Divine person of the plural unity because He is explicitly and unmistakingly called “YHWH Elohim” three times. He is NOT called a “messenger” of YHWH.

Therefore, the orthodox Trinitarian and the non-Trinitarian view that YHWH must know all things is fallacious.

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We are not talking about “elohim” in Exodus 3:4. We are talking about “YHWH-Elohim” in Genesis 3:8. Note that YHWH is used with “elohim.”

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And they heard the sound of YHWH-Elohim walking….

thinker

March 18, 2009 at 8:18 pm#125127

Participant

The Thinker wrote:

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Please read the statement more carefully. It says that God spoke to the fathers through the prophets. Yet we know that were many times that God spoke to the fathers without a prophet. So your strict and narrow interpretation which excludes the Son from speaking to the old testament fathers must also exclude all other messengers at that time.

God did speak through the prophets but he also spoke through angels and perhaps by other means though they too may have employed angels. Even in these last days He has chosen to speak through prophets as there were prophets in the church. So your “loose” interpretation renders the passage meaningless since according to it there is really no difference between how God chooses to speak in the early times and how He speaks in the last days. I on the other hand believe the author of Hebrews has a reason to use those words. I believe the purpose was to declare that Jesus the Messiah is here in these last days and not that the Messiah visited us in the past as you seem to be claiming.

I believe I know what is happening and that is that you are being confused by certain scriptures such as the following.

1 Peter 3:18-20(NIV) reads:

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For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

I assure you Jesus did not literally go back in time and preach to the people of Noah’s time who were in slavery to their sins, prisoners in darkness, but rather the Spirit of God was there to speak in his stead through Noah even though Jesus himself had not come yet.

The Thinker wrote:

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If “by the prophets” necessarily excludes all other messengers in the old testament, then “by His Son” necessarily excludes all other messengers in the last days.

Hebrews 1:1 does not just say just the prophets spoke in the last day but also says that God used other “various means“. Still I understand your point and addressed it above.

The Thinker wrote:

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Yes we are in agreement. The Father did not appear in human form ever. But YHWH Elohim did appear in human form. The narrative clearly identifies the One walking in the garden as “YHWH Elohim.”

You are saying that scripture tells us that the God of God’s host is the one walking in the garden. As I pointed out earlier you may be failing to take the way people of that time and culture into account.

I will try to give examples of what I mean. If a messenger came truly claiming he was “the voice of the President” would he literally be the voice of the president or would he just be speaking the Presidents words. It is much like the remote control robot that robs a bank. Did the robot rob the bank or was it the one controlling him? Angels serve God in the capacity of that messenger or that robot.

The Thinker wrote:

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Therefore, the orthodox Trinitarian and the non-Trinitarian view that YHWH must know all things is fallacious.

I am not sure how you reached this conclusion as you left out your premises. If you could please redo your argument and show me your work in reaching that conclusion then I would be more equipped to respond. Thank you.

March 18, 2009 at 8:42 pm#125128