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Thinker……….Your writing Modern GREEK, But go to the (ORIGINAL) GREEK Text Before the 17 Century translations came into being and you will find they were (ALL) without exception written with Capital letters. AS i have just posted and Just read The original GREEK writings were (ALL) in capital letters, do your research. I have . You could take a Hundred class in modern GREEK and would not realize the writings were originally written with (ALL) capital letters. The original GREEKS had (NO) lower case letters at all, that came (After) the seventeenth century.
gene
Thinker………Here is a direct quote from a GREEK WORD SITE………..> Minuscule or lower case letters first appeared sometime after 800 AD and developed from the Byzantine minuscule script which developed from cursive writings. Now there you have it word for word and that is Just one source there are many others. One other source said it wasn't till the Seventeenth Century before they started using lower case lettering.
peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 10 2009,15:04) Thinker………Here is a direct quote from a GREEK WORD SITE………..> Minuscule or lower case letters first appeared sometime after 800 AD and developed from the Byzantine minuscule script which developed from cursive writings. Now there you have it word for word and that is Just one source there are many others. One other source said it wasn't till the Seventeenth Century before they started using lower case lettering. peace and love…………………….gene
Gene,
You did not provide the link so I could check the website out for myself. Am I supposed to just take your word for it? Please provide the website. The rest of us here give the links to the websites we use and you should do the same.It wouldn't matter anyway. Hebrews 1:10 quotes Psalm 102:25 which says that Jehovah laid the foundation of the earth. The Father Himself applies Psalm 102:25 TO THE SON. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah and this is why the NKJV translators put “LORD” in all capitals in Hebrews 1:10.
So even if the original Greek new testament was written in all capitals it would not solve your problem.
thinker
P.S. Since writing this post I found a website which confirms what you say. I concede that the new testament was written in all capital letters. BUT THIS DOES NOT SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM IN HEBREWS 1:10 WHICH I HAVE EXPLAINED ABOVE. So do your homework
thinker
thinker………..Nor does it solve your problem, with Jesus saying “THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD” AND THE LORD HIMSELF SAYING YOU SHALL HAVE (N0) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME. And Jesus saying GOD was greater then HIM, and Jesus saying God was Spirit and then saying He was (NOT) Spirit, and on and on it goes. By overlooking the obvious word of GOD and Jesus and trying to force one or two scripture to back up a position when Hundreds disprove it, or having to write these long endless posts to try to prove a mute point is foolish when so many obvious scriptures disprove that point. Thinker to try to force or preach Jesus as a GOD (IS) Antichrist and is IDOLATRY and is CREATING Jesus' Image into the MAN OF SIN> As I said before you need to dump the TRINITARIAN Garbage, and the day star will dawn in your heart. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,02:22) thinker………..Nor does it solve your problem, with Jesus saying “THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD” AND THE LORD HIMSELF SAYING YOU SHALL HAVE (N0) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME. And Jesus saying GOD was greater then HIM, and Jesus saying God was Spirit and then saying He was (NOT) Spirit, and on and on it goes. By overlooking the obvious word of GOD and Jesus and trying to force one or two scripture to back up a position when Hundreds disprove it, or having to write these long endless posts to try to prove a mute point is foolish when so many obvious scriptures disprove that point. Thinker to try to force or preach Jesus as a GOD (IS) Antichrist and is IDOLATRY and is CREATING Jesus' Image into the MAN OF SIN> As I said before you need to dump the TRINITARIAN Garbage, and the day star will dawn in your heart. IMO peace and love……………………..gene
Gene,
See what I mean? I believe what the Son said about the Father. I believe also what the Father said about the Son. But you believe only what the Son said. Therefore, you are putting Jesus' word ABOVE the Father's word. Psalm 105:25-27 speaks about Jehovah as the Creator. In Hebrews 1:10 the Father applied those verses to the Son. This is why the NKJV translators put the word “LORD” in all capitals in Hebrews 1:10. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah and the Creator. You accept the Son's words. But you deny the Father's words. If the Father is truly your God as you claim, then why don't you believe Him?You have not yet explained Hebrews 1:10.
thinker
http://biblescripture.net/Greek.html
“Koine Greek was the language used by writers of the Old Testament Greek Septuagint and the Greek New Testament. The original Greek New Testament was written in all capital letters, without spaces, punctuation, accents or diacritical marks.”
http://www.scripture4all.org/ISA2_help/DatabaseInfo/GNT_intro.html
“All Biblical manuscripts in Greek before the 10th cent. A.D. were written in uncials. It is important for the reader to keep in mind the lateness of some of the editorial devices. The earliest uncial manuscripts were even without breaks between the words. Breathings, accents, and punctuation marks-which often greatly influence the translation-are later editorial additions and should be treated as such.”
http://www.answers.com/topic/greek-alphabet-2
“This became the classical Greek alphabet, which had 24 letters, all capitals”
http://www.wikichristian.org/Koine_Greek:_Alphabet
“The Koine Greek alphabet consists of 24 letters. All Greek was originally written in upper case, without spaces between words, and without added punctuation, but today, most texts are are written in lower case, with punctuation and spaces between words.”
http://www.tetragrammaton.org/tetra8.htm
“Greek script style
The simplest classification of Greek manuscripts is by letter style. From the first century until the ninth century, the letters used were a form of upper-case called uncials. The uncial script did not separate words and used no accent or punctuation marks. Though this crowded style of writing seems foreign to us today, it was expedient in order to conserve scarce writing materials.”
Quote (squirrel @ Aug. 10 2009,00:49) Irene said: Quote Yes and there is LORD God and Lord God. LORD in capital Letters is the Father and Lord spelled this way is Jesus. I am really surprised that you have not noticed that. LORD spelled in capital letters is mainly in the Old Testament. Check it out.
Irene,
You check it out. The NKJV uses all capital letters for the Son.Quote You LORD in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands (Hebrews 1:8-10) The Father was speaking TO THE SON calling Him “LORD” in all capital letters.
thinker
For what ever reason that Bible says, but my King James it is written the way I said. It does not even say LORD it says God, in Hebews 1:8. Experts of the Bible also say that the K.J. is more like the original transcript. I have to say this, even tho I do not belong to the Catholic Church anymore, and I am glad I don't, still the Monks where honest by what they did. IMO that is the reason why the Catholic Church prosecuted the first Christian because they read and had a Bible. If you posed a Bible at that time they tortured and killed you. So I go by what I said.
IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 11 2009,03:48) http://biblescripture.net/Greek.html “Koine Greek was the language used by writers of the Old Testament Greek Septuagint and the Greek New Testament. The original Greek New Testament was written in all capital letters, without spaces, punctuation, accents or diacritical marks.”
http://www.scripture4all.org/ISA2_help/DatabaseInfo/GNT_intro.html
“All Biblical manuscripts in Greek before the 10th cent. A.D. were written in uncials. It is important for the reader to keep in mind the lateness of some of the editorial devices. The earliest uncial manuscripts were even without breaks between the words. Breathings, accents, and punctuation marks-which often greatly influence the translation-are later editorial additions and should be treated as such.”
http://www.answers.com/topic/greek-alphabet-2
“This became the classical Greek alphabet, which had 24 letters, all capitals”
http://www.wikichristian.org/Koine_Greek:_Alphabet
“The Koine Greek alphabet consists of 24 letters. All Greek was originally written in upper case, without spaces between words, and without added punctuation, but today, most texts are are written in lower case, with punctuation and spaces between words.”
http://www.tetragrammaton.org/tetra8.htm
“Greek script style
The simplest classification of Greek manuscripts is by letter style. From the first century until the ninth century, the letters used were a form of upper-case called uncials. The uncial script did not separate words and used no accent or punctuation marks. Though this crowded style of writing seems foreign to us today, it was expedient in order to conserve scarce writing materials.”
Jodi Lee,
None of it matters because the Father ascribed creation to the Son.Quote 8 But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.The Father called the Son “God” in verse 8 and “LORD” in verse 10. The Father ascribed the creation to the Son in verse 10. The NKJV translators used all caps for “LORD” because the Psalm quoted in Hebrews 1:10 is about Jehovah and the Father applied the Psalm to the Son. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah!
thinker
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
WHO loved righteousness and hated wickedness? Jesus the Messiah , the human being.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Jesus the Messiah was given by the One True God His powers. Jesus did nothing of himself, but was seen as a theos and made as a theos unto man, by the One True Theos.
The One True God does not call Jesus the One True God, he calls Jesus, the human being, a theos. How is it that the One True God can and does call him that?….. because He gave him His powers.
Luke 2:52Jesus increased in wisdom
John 5:19What he seeth the Father do
John 8:28As the Father hath taught me
Mark 13:32Did not know date of His return
Acts 1:7In Father's authority
John 5:19Son can do nothing of himself
John 5:30Of mine own self do nothing
John 8:28I do nothing of myself
John 14:10He doeth the worksTit 1:2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life– 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
When Jesus was in the world having all the powers of God he most certainly appeared to the people as being a god, he performed many miracles and wonders. Jesus was not the One True God, the One True God YHWH, made Jesus a god on earth. Jesus was the Messiah a human being of the seed of David that was promised from the beginning by the One True God to bring mankind eternal life. YHWH made the world through Jesus the Messiah NOT through some pre-existent Son or a 1/3 theos. From God the creation came but it came through the gospel of which was taught to the prophets and was in the beginning with God as a promise of eternal life. The glory of eternal life which was promised in the beginning was manifested to us by God through our Savior Jesus the Messiah.
God would have never created the heavens and earth if He did not have a plan of eternal salvation for mankind.
Jodi Lee said:
Quote The One True God does not call Jesus the One True God, he calls Jesus, the human being, a theos. How is it that the One True God can and does call him that?….. because He gave him His powers. Jodi Lee,
Are you a polytheist now?. Do you believe in a hierarchy of gods? Ths is what polytheism is. In the beginning Jesus exercised His own power in creation. The Father said so,Quote And the heavens are the work of your hands (or power) Heb. 1:10 The Father said that the heavens are the work of the Son own “hands.” This is a metaphor for His power. Verse 3 says that the Son upholds all things by the word of His own power,
Quote who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high Jesus created the heavens and the earth by His own power. He upholds all things by His own power. When He was in the flesh He yielded His power to the Father. Thus the Father gave Him the power to act. But He was not in the flesh at the creation. And He is not in the flesh now. At the creation He acted on HIS OWN RAW POWER. And in His glorification He does all things BY HIS OWN RAW POWER.
It was only while He was in the flesh that He had to depend upon His Father's power.
thinker
If you don't believe Jesus is God the Son…Then his own implications and implications of the Father now state that Jesus is a God seperate of God the Father.
That would be idolatry for the fact that the Father said, There is no God Before me.
The only way the Bible cannot be contradicted in that fashion is if Jesus was God made flesh.
Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus came forth from God and was not created like creation.
When Jesus said he was not greater than the father, he means in Authority.
Jesus is equal to the father in ESSENCE, for he came from the Father himself. Whether it be a fraction or piece of the father, He is the only thing to exist that is OF the father (including the Holy Spirit).
Everything else was made.
But Jesus coming FROM the father Himself, is subject to the Father's Will.
So even tho he's equal to the Father in essence, he is less than the Father in Authority.
This is what Jesus meant when he said I am not great than my Father.
And also what he means when he states the Father is HIS God.
Because he is subject to the Father's will.
But coming from the Father, he is God as well…Just GOD the SON.
So being of the same essence it allows for Jesus to Inherit all that is the Father without being a Deity in himself.
Jesus cannot posses ALL 7 spirits of God, and have God's ability without being A God.
So the ONLY explaination is that, Jesus is God the Son. Equal in essence, but less in Authority.
They are 3 in 1.
1 John 5:7 go read it please.
Kudos to TheThinker.
O and TheThinker, even though I agree with you on the matter. How dare you say the KJ version is wrong?
What do you think the NKJV was based on???
And why listen to GREEK text when the original bible was written in Hebrew??
Listen people. The only TRUE authority and Word of God is the original Hewbrew Bible.
The Closest translation is the King James Version.
If you want translated answers, that should be the ONLY place you look.
Every other translation is basically a picture of a picture of a picture…after awhile the truth is watered down.
The Thinker write:
Quote
Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Therefore….Hebrews 3:4 is not stating that the “builder” of the house is God though I can see where the ideas it is expressing can be confusing.
I assure you that though my house could not have been built by God he was not the individual credited with “building” it. I can though claim that God built my house because it was done according to his will with the “builder” being a tool in his hand to accomplish his desires.
Psalmes 127:1(NIV) reads:
Quote [ A song of ascents. Of Solomon. ] Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain.
Are the “builders” God? Are the “watchmen” God?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2009,18:13) The Thinker write:
Quote
Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Therefore….Hebrews 3:4 is not stating that the “builder” of the house is God though I can see where the ideas it is expressing can be confusing.
I assure you that though my house could not have been built by God he was not the individual credited with “building” it. I can though claim that God built my house because it was done according to his will with the “builder” being a tool in his hand to accomplish his desires.
Psalmes 127:1(NIV) reads:
Quote [ A song of ascents. Of Solomon. ] Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain.
Are the “builders” God? Are the “watchmen” God?
Hi KerwinQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2009,18:13) I assure you that though my house could not have been built by God he was not the individual credited with “building” it. I can though claim that God built my house because it was done according to his will with the “builder” being a tool in his hand to accomplish his desires.
But would you go to your builder and say “you didn't build my house, God did”, therfore I do not owe you a cent?There is only “One Creator of the Universe” or “Builder” and that is God, yet the scriptures claim Jesus is the creator.
Scriptures credit Jesus for creating something out of nothing, no one else can make that claim.
So you have a conundrum in your theory, whereas the Trinitarian view does not.
WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 11 2009,04:48) Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” WHO loved righteousness and hated wickedness? Jesus the Messiah , the human being.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Jesus the Messiah was given by the One True God His powers. Jesus did nothing of himself, but was seen as a theos and made as a theos unto man, by the One True Theos.
The One True God does not call Jesus the One True God, he calls Jesus, the human being, a theos. How is it that the One True God can and does call him that?….. because He gave him His powers.
Luke 2:52Jesus increased in wisdom
John 5:19What he seeth the Father do
John 8:28As the Father hath taught me
Mark 13:32Did not know date of His return
Acts 1:7In Father's authority
John 5:19Son can do nothing of himself
John 5:30Of mine own self do nothing
John 8:28I do nothing of myself
John 14:10He doeth the works
Jodi Lee,
The Father explicitly called His Son “God” and attributed the original creation to Him. If you deny this then you deny the one true God. The Father is Jesus' God but the Son is YOUR God. There is no coming to the Father apart from your God.Please stop using scriptures out of context.
thinker
Jodi Lee said:
Quote When Jesus was in the world having all the powers of God he most certainly appeared to the people as being a god, he performed many miracles and wonders. Jesus was not the One True God, the One True God YHWH, made Jesus a god on earth. Jodi Lee,
This is pure polytheism. You are saying that Jesus was another god. But Jehovah said you shall have NO OTHER GODS and In Isaiah He said THERE IS NO OTHER BESIDE ME. Jesus was the Jehovah who said this. Psalm 102:25-27 speaks about Jehovah. In Hebrews 1:10 the Father applies the Psalm to His Son. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,19:31) Jodi Lee said: Quote When Jesus was in the world having all the powers of God he most certainly appeared to the people as being a god, he performed many miracles and wonders. Jesus was not the One True God, the One True God YHWH, made Jesus a god on earth. Jodi Lee,
This is pure polytheism. You are saying that Jesus was another god. But Jehovah said you shall have NO OTHER GODS and In Isaiah He said THERE IS NO OTHER BESIDE ME. Jesus was the Jehovah who said this. Psalm 102:25-27 speaks about Jehovah. In Hebrews 1:10 the Father applies the Psalm to His Son. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah.thinker
Point of clarification, what Jodi describes is more akin to Henotheism in essence, many gods but one being above the others or God. Again a lot depends on how we define god. Also scripture does not say there are no other gods, it said Deut 5:7 “You shall have no other gods before me.” and in Exo 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.” Note both say no other gods before me, not most pointedly, no other gods. You mention Isiah and, no other beside me, so having others beneath is possible here. Lastly you mention Hebrews 1:10 which makes no sense here, I think you meant Hebrews 1:12 instead.Quote (Cato @ Aug. 11 2009,23:07) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,19:31) Jodi Lee said: Quote When Jesus was in the world having all the powers of God he most certainly appeared to the people as being a god, he performed many miracles and wonders. Jesus was not the One True God, the One True God YHWH, made Jesus a god on earth. Jodi Lee,
This is pure polytheism. You are saying that Jesus was another god. But Jehovah said you shall have NO OTHER GODS and In Isaiah He said THERE IS NO OTHER BESIDE ME. Jesus was the Jehovah who said this. Psalm 102:25-27 speaks about Jehovah. In Hebrews 1:10 the Father applies the Psalm to His Son. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah.thinker
Point of clarification, what Jodi describes is more akin to Henotheism in essence, many gods but one being above the others or God. Again a lot depends on how we define god. Also scripture does not say there are no other gods, it said Deut 5:7 “You shall have no other gods before me.” and in Exo 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.” Note both say no other gods before me, not most pointedly, no other gods. You mention Isiah and, no other beside me, so having others beneath is possible here. Lastly you mention Hebrews 1:10 which makes no sense here, I think you meant Hebrews 1:12 instead.
Cato,
You are correct that Jodi Lee's view is Henotheistic specifically. This is a form of polytheism. She says that the Father is the only true God and that Christ is a god. If the Father is the only true God then Christ would be a false god. She has only two choices which are Trinitarianism or full fledged Arianism which denies that Christ is a god of any kind.Thanks for the clarification.
thinker
Cato………..GOD is a (PLURAL) word and simply means (POWERS) GOD the FATHER has supreme POWER , Jesus said (THOU) art the ONLY TRUE GOD”, all other powers are recieved from Him and are lesser in authority then HE. Jesus said GOD is a SPIRIT and and we must worship (HIM) in spirit and truth. Jesus told Pilot , you could do nothing except it had been given you from GOD, He understood that GOD is word that describes Powers, When He quoted Psalms where it said your are Gods, That Plasm referred to the rulers of Israel they Had been give by the LORD GOD (POWERS) and were therefore were expected to conduct them selves in His place, because He had Placed them in their position and required them to act accordingly, even as He does Jesus. Jesus Said it right , “THERE IS ONLY ONE (TRUE) GOD OR POWER, All other POWERS are recieved from that ONE TRUE SOURCE. Trinitarians who want to make Jesus equal in POWER and Authority as the LORD GOD are simply deluded in their thinking. THERE IS ONLY (ONE) (TRUE) GOD OR POWER, All else derive their powers from HIM, but He is the giver of any and all power rather in earth or in heaven. Jesus is a recipient of that Power Just as all men and things in creation are. There are many Gods but for US and Jesus, there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD…………..IMO
peace and love………………………gene
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