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Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 09 2009,04:56) Irene said: Quote God the Father will always be greater then the Son and ALL Irene,
Your statement amounts to the denial that Jesus has been exalted to His Father's right hand. Your belief system is not Christian. Kathi is teaching that there were two Gods involved in creation and you don't attack that. All you prove is that you are anti-trinitarian. You do not show that you care about truth. If you did you would speak out about Kathi's polytheism.thinker
Kathi did not post on this tread, so are you talking about Jodi? She is the only other Woman here. Elohim according to the Catholic Bible is not plural. It is a title just like God. That is what the Catholic Bible said. In Genesis it was YEshua that became Jesus that was with the Father. By the power of the Father YEshua created all. So yes, there were two Spirit beings in Genesis who created all.
Rev. 3:14
Col. 15-17
John 17:5
Proverb 8:22
prove that He was with the Father before the world was.
Jesus is not sitting at the place were the Father is sitting and even so He was a Spirit being again, does not make Him equal with the Father. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If Christ said that the Father is greater then He is, that does not change. You cannot prove that!!!!! After all He is always and will be always the Son of God and our Mediator. So we can go to the Throne of God the Father and ask for the forgiveness of our Sins.
You know I have never called anybody a name and I do not like to be called a NON Christian. That is simple not so. I do not believe in a trinity and I will never belief in that again. So stop calling others and me names. That is not aloud here.
I would not be posting in the believers section if I would not be a Christian!!! t8 and Nick do not believe in a trinity either.
So take that to the Bank.Peace and Love Irene
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 08 2009,23:56) Irene said: Quote God the Father will always be greater then the Son and ALL Irene,
Your statement amounts to the denial that Jesus has been exalted to His Father's right hand. Your belief system is not Christian. Kathi is teaching that there were two Gods involved in creation and you don't attack that. All you prove is that you are anti-trinitarian. You do not show that you care about truth. If you did you would speak out about Kathi's polytheism.thinker
1 Corinthians15:27(NIV) reads:Quote For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
That certainly sounds like what Irene wrote.
I have heard the Canaanites and Babylonians and others believed that two Gods were involved but certainly not the Hebrew people who know there is but One True God.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2009,08:03) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 08 2009,23:56) Irene said: Quote God the Father will always be greater then the Son and ALL Irene,
Your statement amounts to the denial that Jesus has been exalted to His Father's right hand. Your belief system is not Christian. Kathi is teaching that there were two Gods involved in creation and you don't attack that. All you prove is that you are anti-trinitarian. You do not show that you care about truth. If you did you would speak out about Kathi's polytheism.thinker
1 Corinthians15:27(NIV) reads:Quote For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
That certainly sounds like what Irene wrote.
I have heard the Canaanites and Babylonians and others believed that two Gods were involved but certainly not the Hebrew people who know there is but One True God.
No I did not say that God the Father was put under Jesus. Where did you get that Idea?
There is just one True God, but in the beginning God brought forth His only begotten Son. The Son never was eternal like the Father. I gave the Scriptures that say that Christ was a Spirit being before the world was. He was there when all through the power of the Father He created all.
Why is that not right? Scriptures say so. When the Word was with God and the Word was God, He John was wrong?
When I then compare it with
Rev. 3:14
Col. 1:15-17 I see that He was a Spirit being before the world was. This is not what I said, it is what Scriptures say.
I do not believe in a trinity. What I find amazing that even the Catholic Church knows that God and Elohim is a title. The Father was and always will be greater and above all.
John 14:28
Ephesians 4:6Peace and Love Irene
Irene said:
Quote You know I have never called anybody a name and I do not like to be called a NON Christian. Irene,
When I say your views are not Christian I do not mean that you are not a Christian. I mean that what you believe is not Christian. Many Christians believe things that are not Christian.thinker
Irene said:
Quote What I find amazing that even the Catholic Church knows that God and Elohim is a title.The Father was and always will be greater and above all.
John 14:28
Ephesians 4:6Titles mean what they say. A man who has the title “captian” of a ship is a captain of a ship. The Father called Jesus by the title “God.” It means that He is God. John 14:6 was true of Jesus when He was in the flesh. He has since then been exalted to the Father's right hand which is the place of equality. Ephesians 4:6 says nothing about the Father being above Christ. In fact, every reference to the “Lord” in Ephesians is a reference to Christ. We have ONE Lord which is Christ. Your view implies that we have two Lords.
thinker
Irene said:
Quote There is just one True God, but in the beginning God brought forth His only begotten Son. There is not one statement throughout all of Scripture that says that the Son was “brought forth.” Proverbs 8 says that wisdom was brought forth. There are not two Gods. Kathi has given up on debating her two Gods view with me. I recommend that you do the same.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 09 2009,11:49) Irene said: Quote What I find amazing that even the Catholic Church knows that God and Elohim is a title.The Father was and always will be greater and above all.
John 14:28
Ephesians 4:6Titles mean what they say. A man who has the title “captian” of a ship is a captain of a ship. The Father called Jesus by the title “God.” It means that He is God. John 14:6 was true of Jesus when He was in the flesh. He has since then been exalted to the Father's right hand which is the place of equality. Ephesians 4:6 says nothing about the Father being above Christ. In fact, every reference to the “Lord” in Ephesians is a reference to Christ. We have ONE Lord which is Christ. Your view implies that we have two Lords.
thinker
Yes and there is LORD God and Lord God. LORD in capital Letters is the Father and Lord spelled this way is Jesus. I am reaslly surprised that you have not noticed that. LORD spelled in capital letters is mainly in the Old Testiment. Check it out.
IreneIrene wrote:
Quote No I did not say that God the Father was put under Jesus. Where did you get that Idea?
You misunderstood me since I was agreeing with you that Jesus is under God and I used that text as evidence to make the case.
If an individual is made the right hand man of a ruler then they are are still subservient to that ruler.
I should not need evidence to back up that last statement.
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 09 2009,06:49) Irene said: Quote What I find amazing that even the Catholic Church knows that God and Elohim is a title.The Father was and always will be greater and above all.
John 14:28
Ephesians 4:6Titles mean what they say. A man who has the title “captian” of a ship is a captain of a ship. The Father called Jesus by the title “God.” It means that He is God. John 14:6 was true of Jesus when He was in the flesh. He has since then been exalted to the Father's right hand which is the place of equality. Ephesians 4:6 says nothing about the Father being above Christ. In fact, every reference to the “Lord” in Ephesians is a reference to Christ. We have ONE Lord which is Christ. Your view implies that we have two Lords.
thinker
God called all the Hebrew people as well as the angels Elohim so according to your reasoning that means they are parts of the Godhead.Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 09 2009,11:54) Irene said: Quote There is just one True God, but in the beginning God brought forth His only begotten Son. There is not one statement throughout all of Scripture that says that the Son was “brought forth.” Proverbs 8 says that wisdom was brought forth. There are not two Gods. Kathi has given up on debating her two Gods view with me. I recommend that you do the same.
thinker
No way. I don,t think that Kathi gave up that is not like Her. Proverb 8:22-30 Does not mean Wisdom. Again I do not agree with you. These verses go right along with what Col. 1:15 says. LORD is the Father here. And He brought forth His Son. He was His delight. Verse 30. Wisdom is what a person is, not
a person being. When you want God's Wisdom we have to ask Him for it, and He will give it to us.
I find it so amazing that some will never learn and I think eventually I too will stop posting to you, because there is no sense in doing this forever. You seem to be set in your ways. You have no open mind to receive the truths. We'll see though. Again I was one time in the Catholic Church and believed just like you. But fortunately God did not leave me in that state and I am forever thankful for that. One day you will too. Maybe sooner then we think, at least for me and my Husband since we are over 70 years old. My Husband agrees with me, rather I believe what He does.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2009,14:43) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 09 2009,06:49) Irene said: Quote What I find amazing that even the Catholic Church knows that God and Elohim is a title.The Father was and always will be greater and above all.
John 14:28
Ephesians 4:6Titles mean what they say. A man who has the title “captian” of a ship is a captain of a ship. The Father called Jesus by the title “God.” It means that He is God. John 14:6 was true of Jesus when He was in the flesh. He has since then been exalted to the Father's right hand which is the place of equality. Ephesians 4:6 says nothing about the Father being above Christ. In fact, every reference to the “Lord” in Ephesians is a reference to Christ. We have ONE Lord which is Christ. Your view implies that we have two Lords.
thinker
God called all the Hebrew people as well as the angels Elohim so according to your reasoning that means they are parts of the Godhead.
Kerwin,
We have been over this a thousand times. The new tesatament declares that Christ is superior to angels and the old testament prophets. Chapter 3 says that Christ is “counted worthy” of equal glory with God.Quote For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. (Heb. 3:4-4) Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Therefore….
Premise 1: Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder
Premise 2: The builder is God
Conclusion: Jesus is counted worthy of EQUAL glory with GodIrene is basically saying that titles have no meaning.
thinker
Irene said:
Quote No way. I don,t think that Kathi gave up that is not like Her. Irene,
Here is what Kathi said,Quote It is not much use to continue the discussion of the past few days with you and Keith. We are getting nowhere and it takes too much time only to get nowhere. Irene said:
Quote Proverb 8:22-30 Does not mean Wisdom. Again I do not agree with you. These verses go right along with what Col. 1:15 says. LORD is the Father here.
The speaker in Proverbs 8 is Wisdom,Quote I wisdom, dwell with prudence….The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way
This passage is poetic and figurative for the wisdom of God. Wisdom says “I dwell with prudence.” If wisdom is Christ then Prudence must be His sister.
It says that the LORD possessed me (wisdom) in the beginning of His way. The book of Proverbs is Hebrew poetry and highly figurative. Hebrews says that Christ laid the FOUNDATION of the earth. This means that Christ is the ORIGINAL creator. It was the Father who said this! If the Father is your God then you will take His word for it when He says that His Son laid the foundation of the earth. To the extent you deny Christ the honor that is due Him is to the extent you slap His Father in the face. Anti-trinitarians FALSELY claim to worship the Father. Jesus told the Jews,Quote It is the Father who honors me who you say is your God
If the Father is your God then you will honor Jesus as the Father honors Jesus. I am definitely not a Catholic. But you were better off as a Catholic then as one who denies the Father.Quote You seem to be set in your ways.
And you and Kathi are not? Come on!Quote You have no open mind to receive the truths.
And you and Kathi have an open mind? It is typical of those who will not learn to say that others will not learn.BTW, do anti-trinitarians preach the gospel? Or do they devote themselves to just bad mouthing the Son of God's love?
thinker
Irene said:
Quote Yes and there is LORD God and Lord God. LORD in capital Letters is the Father and Lord spelled this way is Jesus. I am reaslly surprised that you have not noticed that. LORD spelled in capital letters is mainly in the Old Testiment. Check it out.
Irene,
You check it out. The NKJV uses all capital letters for the Son.Quote You LORD in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands (hebrews 1:8-10) The Father was speaking TO THE SON caling Him “LORD” in all capital letters.
thinker
Squirrel…………(ALL) the new testament was written with (ALL) capital letters in the original GREEK. Jesus is Lord to the (GLORY OF GOD) his GOD.
peace and love………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 10 2009,01:42) Squirrel…………(ALL) the new testament was written with (ALL) capital letters in the original GREEK. Jesus is Lord to the (GLORY OF GOD) his GOD. peace and love………………gene
Also in the King James it is lLord for Jesus and LORD for our Heavenly Father.Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 10 2009,01:42) Squirrel…………(ALL) the new testament was written with (ALL) capital letters in the original GREEK. Jesus is Lord to the (GLORY OF GOD) his GOD. peace and love………………gene
Gene said:Quote …………(ALL) the new testament was written with (ALL) capital letters in the original GREEK. Jesus is Lord to the (GLORY OF GOD) his GOD. Gene,
This is a false statement. The Greek new testament was written in lower case. In Hebrews 1:10 the NKJV has the word “LORD” in all upper case because the Psalm is talking about Jehovah. The Father says that the Son created the heavens and the earth. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah.You don't have your facts straight.
thinker
Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 10 2009,01:56) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 10 2009,01:42) Squirrel…………(ALL) the new testament was written with (ALL) capital letters in the original GREEK. Jesus is Lord to the (GLORY OF GOD) his GOD. peace and love………………gene
Also in the King James it is lLord for Jesus and LORD for our Heavenly Father.Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
The KJV is wrong. Hebrews 1:10 quotes Psalm 102 which is talking about Jehovah. The Father attributes cresation to the Son. Therefore, the Son is Jehovah.thinker
Thinker………Evidently you don't Know (ORIGINAL) GREEK WRITINGS. Check it out before you start telling People there wrong.The Scriptures I have seen are (ALL) in Capital letters.
peace and love………………….gene
Thinker………….Have rechecked the original GREEK writings and have Found that (ALL) GREEK texts were written with Capital Letters until the 17 CENTURY. Selling People on false information is not wise , It only shows the deluded thinking of TRINITARIAN LOGIC> IMO
peace and love………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 10 2009,14:05) Thinker………Evidently you don't Know (ORIGINAL) GREEK WRITINGS. Check it out before you start telling People there wrong.The Scriptures I have seen are (ALL) in Capital letters. peace and love………………….gene
Gene,
I took two years of Greek in college and I have the two Greek New Testaments. Most of the Greek new testament was written in lower case letters. You don't know what you are talking about and I will copy and paste Hebrews 1:8-10 to show you,πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.
ἠγάπησας δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἐμίσησας ἀνομίαν: διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέν σε ὁ θεός, ὁ θεός σου, ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου: καί, Σὺ κατ' ἀρχάς, κύριε, τὴν γῆν ἐθεμελίωσας, καὶ ἔργα τῶν χειρῶν σού εἰσιν οἱ οὐρανοί:Only some of the letters are capitalized. Most are written in lower case. You do not know what you are talking about so give it up.
thinker
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