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Quote (katjo @ Aug. 29 2009,00:38) Jodi! I cant believe some of the things you quotted to nick! I know alot about j.w.beliefs. I am trying to talk (right to this day) with a young girl right now who is studying with them. You should of never ,never told him that the King James was not correct! I cant believe that! you will have him so confused he wont know what to beleive.The person Im talking to now, (at least she does say she knows the King James is the true bible) but says they cannot study it alone.They have to study the one they wrote their selfs, with their own interpretations.They cant study any other. Now you are going to make him think he cant even count on the King James! Our preacher just told us two weeks ago that the NIV. is fine too (easier to understand,but has very same meanings) but when he goes into deeper study, he likes the King James( he did say something about the years of them being some different) If I have to I will ask him on the years, but he just told us if anyone tells you different, have them come and see him. Said he could take you back as far as the “dead sea scrolls” and prove to you that the text matches word for word so close to the King James, its not even funny. He knows his greek and hebrew and has his Dr.'s degree in religion.(thats high as you can go). He done 8 yrs. of college for it! you just quotted you didnt believe in hell and the post before that you believed theres a literal hell.?? and wheather you believe it or not, when JESUS returns with His power, the bible says there will still be some who will reject him. Youre believeing on a easy way out for everyone because hell sounds so bad. WELL IT DOES! but if you have excepted Jesus as your Saviour and repented of your sins, and follow the word the best you can, than you dont have to worry about hell! You cannot be a sinner all your life and not suffer the consequences!Why is there so many scriptures in the bible about hell, and how bad it is, if it is not so? Is God not telling the truth all the time? Or does he just speak the truth when He tell us about heaven? COME ON! and the attitude and language that you used in your last post? 
??
Hi Katjo,I am working on a post right now about hell, I might have it up later this evening, we'll see. Hope you check it out.
As to this comment you said, “COME ON! and the attitude and language that you used in your last post?
??Makes me wonder if you're not just a bit uptight and a little square?
You put translators of the bible twisted the scriptures, made stuff up, took out and added to.(what bible do people usually turn to for truth? king James. And Nick was wondering about being born again? so I did not think it was right to tell him the bible is twisted and quotted wrong. I dont believe that at all.And the attitude you had about hell and cursing, I thought was unneccesary. He is trying to learn something here. And your soul does live on you cannot kill the soul.If its all dead, what do you think goes to heaven or hell? Bible clearly says you cannot kill the soul.
Nick , you posted God can. are you talking about what I posted to Jodi? I was telling her your soul is what goes to heaven or hell. Yes God can and scripture says in hell.Does your Matthew 10:28 say, fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul;but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Did you read the scripts I posted for ya?
Quote (katjo @ Aug. 29 2009,12:39) Nick , you posted God can. are you talking about what I posted to Jodi? I was telling her your soul is what goes to heaven or hell. Yes God can and scripture says in hell.Does your Matthew 10:28 say, fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul;but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Did you read the scripts I posted for ya?
Katjo,Scripture says specifically that the soul that sins DIES, not it receives a reward or punishment, the soul is DESTROYED. This is taught both in the Old Testament and the New. The soul represents the breath or LIFE of a person, no where is it said to be an immortal part of man. That idea is 100% pagan.
I would really like to further debate with you on this topic. If you'd like, go to the thread in Truth or Tradition, it's on page 2 now, under Man, all mortal or just his body?
Hi Jodi,
Man is body soul and spirit[1thess5]
The body rots and the spirit returns to God at death[Ecc12]
The soul before Jesus went to Hades[Lk16] or for the ones alive in the Spirit, the bosom of Abraham.
The souls of the truly dead still go to await judgement in Hades but Hades cannot hold Jesus or his sleeping brothers who are with him in the mansions[Jn14].Nick, you put chapters but not verses. I dont see these in the king James. what are the verses?
Quote (katjo @ Aug. 29 2009,10:25) You put translators of the bible twisted the scriptures, made stuff up, took out and added to.(what bible do people usually turn to for truth? king James. And Nick was wondering about being born again? so I did not think it was right to tell him the bible is twisted and quotted wrong. I dont believe that at all.And the attitude you had about hell and cursing, I thought was unneccesary. He is trying to learn something here. And your soul does live on you cannot kill the soul.If its all dead, what do you think goes to heaven or hell? Bible clearly says you cannot kill the soul.
I'm not trying to be rude, but it is very apparent that you have a lot to learn about the bible, and the way in which it has been translated.Let me ask you this, what guarantee do you possess to show that the translators were under the Spirit of YHWH when they translated it, that leads you to believe it was done perfectly, or at least well?
Here's a little insight for starters,
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/2_bible.html
“Is the human soul mortal or immortal?”
Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.
The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether they are saved or lost, will exist eternally, in either heaven or hell. True life or spiritual life does not cease when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven if we are saved, or in punishment in hell if we reject God’s gift of salvation. In fact, the promise of the Bible is that not only will our souls live forever, but also that our bodies will be resurrected. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12-19).
While all souls are immortal, it is important to remember that we are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only truly eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other sentient creatures, whether they are human or angelic, are finite in that they had a beginning. While our souls will live forever once we come into being, the Bible does not support the concept that our souls have always existed. Our souls are immortal, as that is how God created them, but they did have a beginning; there was a time they did not exist.
Hi KAT,
Not the weak old mortal bodies for the sons of God, but they will be like unto the Son of God.
So where does scripture say men go to live in heaven?Quote (katjo @ Aug. 29 2009,14:20) “Is the human soul mortal or immortal?” Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.
The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether they are saved or lost, will exist eternally, in either heaven or hell. True life or spiritual life does not cease when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven if we are saved, or in punishment in hell if we reject God’s gift of salvation. In fact, the promise of the Bible is that not only will our souls live forever, but also that our bodies will be resurrected. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12-19).
While all souls are immortal, it is important to remember that we are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only truly eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other sentient creatures, whether they are human or angelic, are finite in that they had a beginning. While our souls will live forever once we come into being, the Bible does not support the concept that our souls have always existed. Our souls are immortal, as that is how God created them, but they did have a beginning; there was a time they did not exist.
To all,Let's go through the scriptures of which Katjo gave and see what they say,
Katjo gave us Psalms 22:26, lets look at it in full context,
Psalms 22: 25 Of Thee my praise [is] in the great assembly. My vows I complete before His fearers. 26 The humble do eat and are satisfied, Praise Jehovah do those seeking Him, Your heart doth live for ever. 27 Remember and return unto Jehovah, Do all ends of the earth, And before Thee bow themselves, Do all families of the nations, 28 For to Jehovah [is] the kingdom, And He is ruling among nations. 29 And the fat ones of earth have eaten, And they bow themselves, Before Him bow do all going down to dust, And he [who] hath not revived his soul. 30 A seed doth serve Him, It is declared of the Lord to the generation. 31 They come and de
I believe the heart here that lives forever is speaking of YHWH’s heart, not a man's!
Here is a scripture that shows the heart perishes,
Jeremiah 4:7 The lion has come up from his thicket, And the destroyer of nations is on his way. He has gone forth from his place To make your land desolate. Your cities will be laid waste, Without inhabitant. 8 For this, clothe yourself with sackcloth, Lament and wail. For the fierce anger of the Lord Has not turned back from us. 9 “And it shall come to pass in that day,” says the Lord, “That the heart of the king shall perish, And the heart of the princes; The priests shall be astonished, And the prophets shall wonder.”
Heart here in Hebrew is nephesh, which means breath or LIFE. Nephesh is translated sometimes as soul, life, person, heart, mind, creature, as well as a few other things. It is used to speak of animals, and it is shown repeatedly to represent that which can perish, be destroyed and die.
Douay-Rheims, Holman Christian Standard, New Revised Standard, Good News Translation, The Message, The complete Jewish, as well as others, all translate similar to
YLT Psalms 23:6 Only — goodness and kindness pursue me, All the days of my life, And my dwelling [is] in the house of Jehovah, For a length of days!
Katjo gave us Psalms 49:7-9, he is citing verse 9 for proof, but he is taking it out of context, the passage is actually saying just the opposite of what he thinks.
Psalms 49: 6 Those who trust in their wealth And boast in the multitude of their riches, 7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him—8 For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever— 9 That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. 10 For he sees wise men die; Likewise the fool and the senseless person perish, And leave their wealth to others. 11 Their inner thought is that their houses will last forever, Their dwelling places to all generations; They call their lands after their own names. 12 Nevertheless man, though in honor, does not remain; He is like the beasts that perish. 13 This is the way of those who are foolish, And of their posterity who approve their sayings. Selah 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah 16 Do not be afraid when one becomes rich, When the glory of his house is increased; 17 For when he dies he shall carry nothing away; His glory shall not descend after him. 18 Though while he lives he blesses himself (For men will praise you when you do well for yourself), 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; They shall never see light. 20 A man who is in honor, yet does not understand, Is like the beasts that perish.
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
This scripture says NOTHING about a person receiving some sort of conscious reward or punishment. Simply says that our spirit returns to God. Seems likely that God will use our spirit for the resurrection, and that is why it returns to Him at our death.
YLT, Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book. 2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.
First of all this is speaking of what happens at the resurrection NOT what happens immediately when a person dies. The idea that YHWH would torment someone who lived a certain amount of years in sin for an eternity is ludicrous. Some awake to abhorrence AGE-during, meaning a period of time.
YLT Matthew 25:46`Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me. 46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
1 Corinthians 15:12 And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons? 13 and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen; 14 and if Christ hath not risen, then void [is] our preaching, and void also your faith, 15 and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise; 16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen, 17
and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; 18 then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish; 19 if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.Uh, this proves nothing of receiving an immediate reward or punishment upon death, this is speaking of the resurrection.
So far Katjo’s attempt at proving his doctrine has failed. There is NO part of man that is immortal. Our hope is in being resurrected into the Kingdom of heaven, which is shown in the bible to be on EARTH! The bible is clear in Acts and Hebrews that no one has ascended into heaven, that those such as Noah, Enoch, Abraham and Sara have yet to receive the promise of eternal life, they are currently sleeping the sleep of death, and thus their spirit which is with YHWH is waiting unconsciously for Christ’s return.
Kato………A Soul, consists of two things……a BODY with SPIRIT in it. And nothing else. Man became a living soul when his body was combined with Spirit (intellect) which animates His body. Jesus did not say fear him who can destory Body Soul (AND) Spirit, why because the Body is in a perished state without a Spirit in it, it no longer is a SOUL without a Spirit. “when a man dies his thoughts Parish” he no longer exists as a soul at all. The spirit part of His body goes back to Him who gave we are told AND THAT IS IT AS FAR AS THE MAN IS CONCERNED, UNTIL GOD recreates another Body and Adds Spirit back into it. No where does it say there are three things that compose a SOUL.
Peace and love………………………………..gene
HG,
Is this your own idea?
God's breath gave life and soul to the soil of earth.
Gen2.7.Salvation of the soul is the hope when the body of man returns to the earth and spirit of man returns to his God[ecc12. 1Peter1,2]
Nick………If you could understand GOD took a Flesh body and Breathed His Spirit into it and (IT) became a livnig SOUL. It was not a living SOUL until the Breath of Life from GOD (SPIRIT) was put into it. Spirit is even described in Scripture as a Force like wind , Man became animated when Spirit (intellect) was put into his body. Jesus Said nothing about the spirit being destroyed but only the Body being destroyed in the GRAVE , because SPIRIT can not be destroyed, it can only be removes. While a man can destory a body he can not stop God from remaking it, like He did Jesus, but if GOD does not raise His body He simply is in a perished state. Why do you think Jesus told his disciples even the very Hairs on there Head was numbered. That is because the only they could be brought back is with that same body, IMO
peace and love…………………………………gene
G,
The body without the spirit is dead.
The human spirit which returns to God at death gives our soul life while we are lent it.Katjo wrote:
Quote Is the human soul mortal or immortal?
Do you want to speculate on what some human's interpretation of scripture seems to say or do you want to base your conclusion on the nature of God? God is all powerful and so I would conclude that it depends on what he decides on that day. I trust in both his justice and his mercy. Do you?
nick, your scriptures dont say what mine say.
God did not make another Jesus! Remember He was glorified. And when he rose from the dead He was flesh and BONE not flesh and blood! That was His glorified body. Remember the bible warns about people denying He came in the flesh, and it means after his resurrection.
we are a spirit that has a soul that lives in a body! God did not make another jesus, at His ressurection. Remember he was glorified and rose in the flesh. (Bible warns if you dont believe that) He was no longer flesh and blood(blood cannot enter heaven) He was flesh and bone! and that is what w will be like,(those in Christ) And Jodi Im not going to discuss this with you any more, because nothing I say Is right, and If Im wrong thats fine, But when Im quotting from scripture, you cant tell me Im wrong, and my pastor is preaching the same thing, who went to college for 8 years, and knows Hebrew and Greek,I think Ill stick with believing Him. You ask me what made me so sure what I read was the exact truth? How do you know what your reading is the truth? I take it by faith. Everyone rely's on the King James. I replyed and told you that the pastor said he could take anyback as far as the dead sea scrolls and show them that the word fits so close to scripts (word for word) its not even funny. And I dont believe I would be feeling the holy spirit if what i believe was wrong. Just like what you told Nick on hell- What do you think Jesus's judgment day is for if there is no everlasting hell? We would just all be going to heaven. Judgment day isnt just for our sins its for what we have done for Christ too.(scripts tell you so.) Jesus done the for giving of sins on the cross.Jude verse 4 tells us;That Jsus Christ is our only master and Lord. he says people speak of Him from there lips but their HEARTS are far from Him. and what youve done for others you have also done for Him. feeding the poor, clothing the poor providing for the homeless, and my church does all of that, we all chip in. And its not because we are told to its the kindess for others that comes from a persons heart. If there was no hell do you think so mant people would be excepting Christ? everyone would just be doing what ever sin they wanted to and thinking, nothing is going to happen anyway than after I die and im ressurected I'll except him than. NO! YOU DO NOT GET A SECOND CHANCE! if your'e still here when Jesus returns yes, but if your already dead ;NO! You had your chance. You better study the scripts. ABSOLUTLEY NOT! there is a different stage of heaven and hell. Almost like a holding. What about Lazarus and the rich man who died,Lazarus is on one side and the rich man is on the other, and he is wanting Lazarus to bring some water and cool his tongue because he is so hot, and to go tell his brothers not to come to this place and Lazarus tells him he cant because there is a great divide between them. and Jude even tells us their is even angels who did not keep there place of power, bound in everlasting chains under darkness waiting on judgement day, that is a different place than the hell at the end time. I just found this site a couple weeks ago and thought it would be nice to talk with christian people, but it all seems very arguementive. I dont like being like that with others,Scripts tells us our tongue is the most dangerous part of our body. Tongue alone can send you to hell.We will be judged for how we judge others. And the Holy Spirit is telling me all this is wrong. God would not like this, no one can figure out every thing of his word because if we could than we would be God. God bless!
James 5;9 Grudge not one against another brothern, lest you be condemned; behold, the judge standeth before the door.
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