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A God the Son would be believing in more than one God.
Quote (katjo @ Aug. 21 2009,14:15) A God the Son would be believing in more than one God.
I don't think so. Jesus said that the Father is greater then He is. Also the Father is above all. All through the Old Testament it states that God is ONE GOD. When you see God as a title, you will see how wrong the trinity is. I don't understand why some of you believe, when I believe in the preexistence of Jesus, that it has to do with the trinity. I do not think that any Churches that believe in the trinity also believe in the preexisting of Jesus. At least not in the Catholic Church. One more thing, Jesus created all by the power of His Father. Our Heavenly Father is all powerful, and He has given some to the Son. Jesus had God's Holy Spirit in no measure. If we had God's wisdom like a mustard seed we could move mountains. I also find it interesting that so many of you believe that Proverbs 8:22-30 speaks of the birth of wisdom. Did God not have wisdom already? I thinks so. Jesus was brought forth by the Father it says.
I really am looking forward to Jesus return, that we finally know all truths.
Peace and Love IreneIrene,
I agree that immortality comes through faith in Jesus the Anointed One. I also agree with you that many definitions for divine are not consistent with what is means in scripture when it states divine nature. Still I do not understand what you mean when you state that Jesus has a divine nature since there are so many definitions that do not apply. Could you please tell me the definition that you believe is the correct one? Thank you.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2009,19:00) Irene, I agree that immortality comes through faith in Jesus the Anointed One. I also agree with you that many definitions for divine are not consistent with what is means in scripture when it states divine nature. Still I do not understand what you mean when you state that Jesus has a divine nature since there are so many definitions that do not apply. Could you please tell me the definition that you believe is the correct one? Thank you.
I believe that He is like our Heavenly Father, God. He is divine and so is Jesus too, I have always thought that divine means that one could not die. Yet there are definition that I don't quit understand, I want to put the whole definition down, but it is hard to see here right now. So I will do so tomorrow, when it is light out.
IreneQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2009,18:35) The Truth wrote: Quote The Bible is full of evidence showing the truth of the Trinity
That would be false evidence. The Trinity concept is not even a Hebrew concept but was devised over time in the Catholic Church. We even have records where the debates that determined its evolution were settled in councils. Of course once it was settled people went back and looked for scriptures they believed supported it. There are still debates among the various sects about what the definition of Trinity is.
Does God know everything?
Does Jesus?
Can God be tempted by evil?
Can Jesus?
There are many questions one ask themselves when testing the spirit of what they believe.
The only falseness would be from you. The fact that you do not believe in Christ as the Son of God, nor in the Trinity does not make it false. I havre shown you Titus but you do your usal and ignore it. Why? Why do you refuse to answer questions? No matter, the fact remains that you do not believe in nor follow what the Scriptures say and therefore worship a false god.
John says, ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” – John 1:1-3
Now when we do what you refuse to do, which is why you do not understand Scripture, and cross reference we see in Revelation John says, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. Wait, The Word was God, and it is Christ name. How can that be? Simple they are one. Oh and before you try it Kerwin both “Words” are the same Greek word, and refer to Christ.
He also says, “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” – 1 John 2:22-23 That it what you do. You deny Christ, and try to make him a mere man. You say he is only a man, and not even the Son of God, but just a son of God. You say he is just a man like me or you. Well I am not Christ and neither are you. We will never be Christ, we strive to be like him, but we will never make it.Jude says, “They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” – Jude 1:4b. How can Jesus be our “only Sovereign and Lord” and God be are only Lord if they are not one in the same.
Peter says, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 2:10-11 then we see in Jude “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25 Wait again we have Peter saying Christ is the Savior and Jude saying God is our Savior. Who is lying Kerwin? Oh wait I mean who was mistranslated or misinterpreted? Aren't those your standard arguments for when you do not agree?
You also have in Revelation where Christ calls himself the Alpha and Omega, as God does. Which is impossible if they are not one, in that you can not have two Alpha and Omegas. Then you have the references to him being “King of kings, and Lord of lords”. Notice the capitalization, and that they are different Greek words. There is just a little of the evidence in the Scriptures, showing the Trinity, not even mentioning the worship of Christ and how we are to only worship God. Now it is your turn to spread you false doctrine, and spread the word of your false god.
I pray for you that you will find the True God, and his Son.Side note I did not speak of your “temptation” argument because I have proven it wrong so many times, but since it is your only argument you keep with it. I will say that with your argument of Jesus was tempted then he can not be the Messiah. In order to be tempted he would have had to had a “sinful nature” and therefore not perfect. Why would you want to call our Savior sinful and therefore not perfect?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2009,19:00) Irene, I agree that immortality comes through faith in Jesus the Anointed One. I also agree with you that many definitions for divine are not consistent with what is means in scripture when it states divine nature. Still I do not understand what you mean when you state that Jesus has a divine nature since there are so many definitions that do not apply. Could you please tell me the definition that you believe is the correct one? Thank you.
Here are the definition of divinedivinus a God or like a God, holy sacred, devoted to God, supremely great,very pleasing attractive, a clergy man,a Theologian engage in divination
It sure is different then what I thought.
But we do know that God the Father cannot die. Most people when you say God they mean the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, since most believe in the trinity.
So take your pick. I still belief that it means that He cannot die like His Father.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ Aug. 22 2009,06:01) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2009,19:00) Irene, I agree that immortality comes through faith in Jesus the Anointed One. I also agree with you that many definitions for divine are not consistent with what is means in scripture when it states divine nature. Still I do not understand what you mean when you state that Jesus has a divine nature since there are so many definitions that do not apply. Could you please tell me the definition that you believe is the correct one? Thank you.
Here are the definition of divinedivinus a God or like a God, holy sacred, devoted to God, supremely great,very pleasing attractive, a clergy man,a Theologian engage in divination
It sure is different then what I thought.
But we do know that God the Father cannot die. Most people when you say God they mean the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, since most believe in the trinity.
So take your pick. I still belief that it means that He cannot die like His Father.
Peace and Love Irene
Thank you for your answer. I have always thought divine in scripture meant having righteousness like onto God’s as there is only one God. We that seek to emulate Jesus know that we can only obtain that righteousness through faith in the Jesus the Anointed One who we regard as King.Matthew 15:8 These people draw near me with their mouth and honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me. 12:8 THE SON OF MAN IS LORD! Matthew 7:22 MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY LORD, LORD HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? AND IN THE NAME HAVE CAST OUT DEVILS? AND IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? (23) and than I will profess unto them: I NEVE KNEW YOU DEPART FROM ME,YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.
Hmmm-Why would Jesus say that? Who laid down His life for us? I think everyone will say Jesus- He is our Saviour. So why does 1John 3;16 say: HEREBY PERCEIVE WE THE LOVE OF GOD, BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US:AND WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BROTHREN. OH! IN JUDE HE IS OUR WISE GOD AND SAVIOUR TOO! Those who dont believe in the trinity ,can you tell me what these verses mean to you? Just because the word trinity is not in the Bible does not mean it's not so. Scripture tell us THE THREE ARE ONE. Deutronomy 32:4 He is the rock His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: A God of truth and without iniquity, Just and right is He. (I thought the new testament says Jesus is the rock?Kato………Yes i can tell you what those words mean, HEREBY PERCEIVE WE THE LOVE (OF) GOD, BECAUSE HE (JESUS) LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US: AND WE AUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN . Simple , the love (OF) or from GOD was (IN) Jesus and can be in us also. This scripture has nothing to do with a trinity, Forcing the text to meet Trinitarian Ideologies is simply teaching false doctrine, and should be avoided, but trinitarians are simple unable to properly understand what is truly being said because of their deluded understandings. You need to read 2Ths2 and try to understand what it is saying about creating another GOD as trinitarians have done with Jesus, They have turned the image of Jesus into THE MAN OF SIN, because they have recieved a delusion sent to them by GOD in order fro them to believe a LIE, and that Lie is, Jesus is a GOD. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
What? Jesus did no sin, He died for our sins. God does not send you a delusion to believe a lie.(alie that Jesus is a God) No, not a God, hE”S THEE GOD
Not true katjo.
Jesus is the son of the living God, the Messiah, the Word of God.
The Father is the one true God and God made Jesus, Lord and messiah.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”How can you deny the above 2 scriptures? They are clear and without apology. They are true.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Are you “US”. If so, you would believe the scriptures above.
Quote (katjo @ Aug. 23 2009,07:00) What? Jesus did no sin, He died for our sins. God does not send you a delusion to believe a lie.(alie that Jesus is a God) No, not a God, hE”S THEE GOD
Kato………Show us scripture where (JESUS) ever said HE was GOD ALMIGHTY. You appear to have bought into the LIE of TRINITARIANS taught by deluded minds , because they received not the love of truth and therefore GOD has sent unto them a delusion in order for them the believe (THE LIE) the LIE is Jesus is a GOD a false and Idolatrous teaching which HE Himself will abolish at His return, as 2Ths 2 says. JESUS SAID “HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD, tell us do you see the word three there> Dump these false teachings and your eyes may be opened to see the truth. IMOpeace and love……………………….gene
GENE: WE all know that Jesus is our Saviour- 1Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.1 timothy 3:16, and without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. what does that mean? (GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH) John 20: 28 and 29- How come when Thomas called Jesus (MY LORD AND MY GOD) Jesus saith to him, Thomas because thou hast seen me and believe , blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed. 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost:AND THESES THREE ARE ONE!
Kato……..You failed to answer my post Where I quoted Jesus' own words. Neglecting His words is part of the reason for your errors. Another thing look closely at what you quoted I Tim 4:10….”for therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living GOD, who is the Saviour of all men”. DO you see the name Jesus there. To try to force the text to say what it does not specifically say is what Trinitarians do. Indeed GOD was manifested in Jesus a flesh and blood human being, He was after all (IN) HIM and don't forget Jesus said (I) can of myself do nothing that is ONE GOD , not two or three triune anythings. And indeed GOD the Father and HIS word and Spirit are ONE because they are the one and same thing. Again where is the name Jesus there if you say The Word , that is a error, a word is an expression of who someone is and that even applies to GOD himself. Twisting Scripture to try to make it say what it actually does not, is all part of the delusion sent to those who love not the truth. 2 Ths 2, Kato go and read my post on the (Man of SIN), and think about it. IMO
peace and love ………………………gene
Doesnt the bibile say Jesus is our saviour? timothy 4:10 quotes God who is our Saviour. So than which one is it? Sure a word is an expression but the word that became flesh is Jesus. (sorry I dont see a post (Man on sin). I have something I would like you to read too. I actually read this from a post on here.
Let me first thank those who run this site for allowing me the opportunity to make this post. I will be addressing the question of Jesus Christ's deity. This issue is not new, nor are the arguments surrounding it. However, one side is true, and one side is false. Either Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man, or he was only fully man. Those who believe that scripture is truly God's word must also believe that there are no contradictions in scripture. Any such contradiction would prove error in God's word, thus error in God. Such error is impossible; therefore any inerrancy found in scripture must be as a result from human error in interpretation. The fact that scripture is without contradictions will prove to be the biggest factor in proving which belief is true and which is false.
I have studied the deity of Christ from both a Trinitarian perspective as well as a non-Trinitarian perspective and have found that there is overwhelming evidence that scripture very clearly states that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. There are countless ways in which to approach proving this issue with scripture, however to start off, I will begin with some basics. If needs be, I will continue the scriptural proof in more detail in another post so to keep this one as short as possible. I will begin with three contradictions that arise if Jesus Christ is NOT God.
1) Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
—According to verse 8, this is talking about the Son of God, not the Father. This verse tells us that Jesus Christ was not only pre-existent to his humanity on earth, but that He existed in the beginning even before creation and that by His hands He created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This verse tells us that the only thing in existence in the beginning was God, and that God created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1 we find that God was the only one in the beginning that that He created the heavens and the earth. According to Hebrews 1:10 we find that Jesus Christ was in the beginning and created the heavens and the earth. If Jesus Christ is not God, then these two verses contradict each other. The only way Hebrews 1:10 is true is if Jesus Christ is in fact God.
2) Exodus 34:14, –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God— According to this verse, God is the only person who is to be worshiped. Jesus Christ is worshiped throughout the New Testament not only by humans (Matthew 2:2, Mark 5:6, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, etc.) but also by the angels (Hebrews 1:6). If Jesus Christ is not God, then there is a major contradiction in scripture. If Christ is not God then all the angels are guilty of idolatry as well as humans. More severely, if Christ is not God, then Jesus Christ himself is guilty of sin. If Christ is not God, then He sinned every time He accepted and encouraged those who worshiped Him. Also, in his confrontation with Satan in the desert, Jesus Christ commands Satan to “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.” (Matthew 4:10). We also know that according to Philippians 2:10 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” This means that all will fall subject to, worship, give homage, and praise Jesus Christ, be it voluntary or involuntary. This includes Satan himself. If Jesus Christ is not God, then He is lying in his instruction to Satan. Jesus tells Satan to worship ONLY God, and then later Satan is found worshiping Jesus.
3) Finally, according to Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.” The word LORD in this verse is the Hebrew word YAHWEH, which means God. God is our only savior, and only God is able to forgive our sins and give us salvation. However, Jesus Christ not only forgave sins (Matthew 9:6) be He also is our savior (Titus 1:4, 2 Peter 1:11, etc.). If Jesus Christ is not God, then again there is contradiction in scripture. Furthermore, if Jesus Christ is not God, then we have no savior, and thus no salvation.
As established in Hebrews 1:10, the fact that Jesus Christ preexisted to his time on earth proves that He is in fact God. When scripture tells us that Christ “came in the flesh” it establishes that Christ has eternally existed and affirms that He is fully God. That is why 2 John 1:7 is so important: “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Those who do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is fully God are false and are not from God. In fact, confessing that Jesus is God is how we test if someone is from God or from the adversary: 1 John 4:2-3 “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.”
I hope this helps anyone lost in falseness or confused about the truth. I will continue to pray for those who are lost that God opens their hearts so that they will know the truth of God and worship in that truth and in spirit.Quote (katjo @ Aug. 25 2009,12:18) Let me first thank those who run this site for allowing me the opportunity to make this post. I will be addressing the question of Jesus Christ's deity. This issue is not new, nor are the arguments surrounding it. However, one side is true, and one side is false. Either Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man, or he was only fully man. Those who believe that scripture is truly God's word must also believe that there are no contradictions in scripture. Any such contradiction would prove error in God's word, thus error in God. Such error is impossible; therefore any inerrancy found in scripture must be as a result from human error in interpretation. The fact that scripture is without contradictions will prove to be the biggest factor in proving which belief is true and which is false.
I have studied the deity of Christ from both a Trinitarian perspective as well as a non-Trinitarian perspective and have found that there is overwhelming evidence that scripture very clearly states that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. There are countless ways in which to approach proving this issue with scripture, however to start off, I will begin with some basics. If needs be, I will continue the scriptural proof in more detail in another post so to keep this one as short as possible. I will begin with three contradictions that arise if Jesus Christ is NOT God.
1) Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
—According to verse 8, this is talking about the Son of God, not the Father. This verse tells us that Jesus Christ was not only pre-existent to his humanity on earth, but that He existed in the beginning even before creation and that by His hands He created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This verse tells us that the only thing in existence in the beginning was God, and that God created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1 we find that God was the only one in the beginning that that He created the heavens and the earth. According to Hebrews 1:10 we find that Jesus Christ was in the beginning and created the heavens and the earth. If Jesus Christ is not God, then these two verses contradict each other. The only way Hebrews 1:10 is true is if Jesus Christ is in fact God.
2) Exodus 34:14, –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God— According to this verse, God is the only person who is to be worshiped. Jesus Christ is worshiped throughout the New Testament not only by humans (Matthew 2:2, Mark 5:6, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, etc.) but also by the angels (Hebrews 1:6). If Jesus Christ is not God, then there is a major contradiction in scripture. If Christ is not God then all the angels are guilty of idolatry as well as humans. More severely, if Christ is not God, then Jesus Christ himself is guilty of sin. If Christ is not God, then He sinned every time He accepted and encouraged those who worshiped Him. Also, in his confrontation with Satan in the desert, Jesus Christ commands Satan to “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.” (Matthew 4:10). We also know that according to Philippians 2:10 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” This means that all will fall subject to, worship, give homage, and praise Jesus Christ, be it voluntary or involuntary. This includes Satan himself. If Jesus Christ is not God, then He is lying in his instruction to Satan. Jesus tells Satan to worship ONLY God, and then later Satan is found worshiping Jesus.
3) Finally, according to Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.” The word LORD in this verse is the Hebrew word YAHWEH, which means God. God is our only savior, and only God is able to forgive our sins and give us salvation. However, Jesus Christ not only forgave sins (Matthew 9:6) be He also is our savior (Titus 1:4, 2 Peter 1:11, etc.). If Jesus Christ is not God, then again there is contradiction in scripture. Furthermore, if Jesus Christ is not God, then we have no savior, and thus no salvation.
As established in Hebrews 1:10, the fact that Jesus Christ preexisted to his time on earth proves that He is in fact God. When scripture tells us that Christ “came in the flesh” it establishes that Christ has eternally existed and affirms that He is fully God. That is why 2 John 1:7 is so important: “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Those who do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is fully God are false and are not from God. In fact, confessing that Jesus is God is how we test if someone is from God or from the adversary: 1 John 4:2-3 “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.”
I hope this helps anyone lost in falseness or confused about the truth. I will continue to pray for those who are lost that God opens their hearts so that they will know the truth of God and worship in that truth and in spirit.
Even Though Jesus is called by His Father that He is God, makes Him not greater then the Father. Jesus Himself said so in Jon 14:28…..for my Father is greater then I.” Also in
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through us all, and in us all.
Deut, 4:35″ Unto thee was shewed, that tho mightest know that the LORD He is God, who is none beside Him.”Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel ; The LORD God is one LORD.”
Notice that LORD is in capital letters, that is always Jesus . While when it is Lord it is Jesus.1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none other God but ONE.”
Our Heavenly Father will always be greater then His Son. Even tho the Father has given so much to His Son, and He was who Created all by the power of God. the Father. God is a title and both have other Names. We are the Son's of God and the Family of God. If you do and say that Jesus is the Almighty God, you are going against the great commandment, which Jesus has given us. ” Love God with all of your Heart, and your Neighbor as yourself. This is the greatest Commandment. It is the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. He is our Mediator through him to go to the Throne of our Heavenly Father God. Jesus is the perfect Sacrifice.
No other ever needed. Also Jesus preexisted His Birth as a man.
Col, 12:15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation.”verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are n Heaven or that is in Earth, visible and invisible………
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.
Rev, 3:14 ..” These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”
And this is what Jesus said in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself , with the glory I had with You before the World.When Christ will come again, He will be King of Kings and Lord Of Lords, and He deserves all Honor and because He is a King, every knee will bow and every mouth will confess that He is the Lord. Not the Almighty and only that Almighty deserved to worship Him. That is a false doctrine like the trinity i
s. When all have been captured and under His feet, then Jesus will give the Kingdom back to the Father
1 Corinth. 15:25 Now when all things are subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
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