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Im sorry but we believe in the trinity and our church worships the father all the time as well as Jesus too!
Hi katjo, you said, “While the word “trinity” is not found in the Scriptures, the concept is found there from beginning to end. There is no question about it—the doctrine of the Trinity is divinely revealed biblical truth: our one God exists in three persons. That is not to say that the authors of Scripture understood it clearly. When Peter, John, and the other disciples first saw Jesus they did not say, “Oh look, there goes God in flesh, the second person of the holy Trinity.” Yet as they heard Him claim to be the revelation of the Father with the prerogatives of deity, and as they watched Him perform the supernatural works of deity, they came to the convinced persuasion that He was God the Son.
This is utterly FALSE,
They came to understand that Jesus was the TRUE MESSIAH, not God the Son. They came to understand that Jesus was in fact the man of the seed of David that God promised He would be a Father to. They came to understand that Jesus was the man that would fulfill the promise that the Father had in the beginning, the promise of eternal life.
and they most certainly believed that Jesus performed miracles, signs and wonders NOT because he was God the Son, but because the Father gave him the use of His powers.
Acts 1:7In Father's authority
John 5:19Son can do nothing of himself
John 5:30Of mine own self do nothing
John 8:28I do nothing of myself
John 14:10He doeth the worksQuote (katjo @ Aug. 14 2009,15:56) hello! I think some people need to look at Colossians 1:15,16,17 again because Jesus is not the first born of all creation. He is the first born of EVERY CREATURE! Image of the invisable God. By him all things were created,that are in Heaven and that are in earth.All things were created by Him and for Him. And Jesus is the only one who can forgive our sins. He is our Saviour and is called God our Saviour. Titus1:3 and 2;4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared!How about 1 John 5:20 and we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us a understanding, that we may know Him that is true,and we are in Him that is true, even in His son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, AND ETERNAL LIFE! 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word and the Holy Ghost: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE! Scripture tells us everywhere that God(spirit) lives in Jesus. Who laid down His life for us? JESUS! 1John 3;16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us. Eph.3:9 tells us all things where created by Jesus. Hebrews 12:2 tells us Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Job 19:25,26 For I know that my redeemer liveth,and that He shall stand at the ladder day upon the earth (which is Jesus) and 26 says and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. I could go on and on but I'll just add one more. Exodus 3:14 God saying to Moses: I AM THAT I AM John 8: 58 Jesus says: verily, verily i say to you, Before Abraham was, I AM! Rev. 22:13(jesus says) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end,The first and the last! To me it's easy to understand that God is spirit that lives in Jesus(thats how we will get to see our God :job 26)and when we invite Him into our hearts he sends us the Holy spirit. What a wonderful feeling, and what a wonderful God!! God Bless!!
This is where you quote what Jesus is. I don't understand why you saying that Jesus is not the firstborn of all creation, and then, And then you quote He is the firstborn of every creation.
Rev. 3:14 …….” THese things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.Also Jesus is our Mediator so we can be forgiven for our sins. He is the perfect sacrifice for all sins, past, present ant future.
No more other scarifies needed. Jesus is mot the only one who can forgive sins. It is our Heavenly Father who does.
That is all I am only repeating myself, I don't want to waste my time.
IreneI think everyone (wheather they believe in the three being one or not) better know that Jesus is the one that for gives your sins! He shed His blood for you. You cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit until you ask Jesus into your heart and repent of your sins! John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life, NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME! Romans 10:9 If thy shall confess with thy mouth the LORD JESUS and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved. (13) Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. John 10:9 Jesus says: I am the door: by ME if any man enter in, He shall be saved Eph.1:7 In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins,according to the riches of his grace titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings SALVATION HAS APPEARED TO ALL MEN (13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.(14) Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity 3:4 but after that the kindness and love of GOD OUR SAVIOUR TOWARD MAN APPEARED!! Matthew 11: 28 Jesus says:come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take My yoke upon you, and learn of me: for i am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls
john 8:36 if the Son therefor shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.Luke 19:10 For the Son of man has come to seek and to save.I think everyone (wheather they believe in the three being one or not) better know that Jesus is the one that for gives your sins! He shed His blood for you. You cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit until you ask Jesus into your heart and repent of your sins! John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life, NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME! Romans 10:9 If thy shall confess with thy mouth the LORD JESUS and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved. (13) Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. John 10:9 Jesus says: I am the door: by ME if any man enter in, He shall be saved Eph.1:7 In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins,according to the riches of his grace titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings SALVATION HAS APPEARED TO ALL MEN (13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.(14) Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity 3:4 but after that the kindness and love of GOD OUR SAVIOUR TOWARD MAN APPEARED!! Matthew 11: 28 Jesus says:come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take My yoke upon you, and learn of me: for i am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls
john 8:36 if the Son therefor shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.Luke 19:10 For the Son of man has come to seek and to save.JODI LEE- AMEN!! God Bless You!
Quote (katjo @ Aug. 18 2009,19:44) I just know I believe in the trinity because my bible tells me so.
That is strange because I believe you told us that the trinity was not explicitly mentioned in the bible but that you concluded it was there by the evidence, which I call conjecture.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 14 2009,03:26) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,02:43) Ok then maybe you believe as a trinitarian. The father is indeed the Almighty God…you can call Jesus Mighty God if you like, but the emphasis is that he was mighty God before coming to earth…and was made flesh.
After his ressurection, he went back to being mighty God in Heaven.
But remember, Almighty God, and Mighty God and the Holy Spirit are ONE. They are all God…it's fine if you give the title Almighty to the Father and Mighty to the Son. But all in all
They are all one. This is my trinitarian belief…If they are not one then calling Jesus Mighty God or believing he was a Man made into a God by the father is Idolatry.
Where in scripture does it say Jesus existed before as God?Jesus, who was the infant born of Mary, asked God to glorify him with the glory he had with God in the beginning. This glory is never shown to be a glory of Jesus being God. There is NO scripture that declares such. Scripture DOES however, specifically show us that in the beginning God had glory for man through His promise of eternal life.
Jesus after his resurrection is called the root and offspring of David, he was raised flesh and bones and is the FIRST human being to receive immortality. The glory that Jesus received is clearly shown in scripture to be Jesus becoming an immortal MAN. This was the glory that Jesus had in the beginning with the Father, it was as a promise of eternal life for man of which Jesus fulfilled through the planning and work of the ONE TRUE God the Father.
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Greetings Jodi…..I must say your your post has answered several questions I had…. while adding credence to John when he said that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God….in addition the word was God and became flesh and dwelt among us….My question is ?? Who was Melchezadik….I was telling you my KING JAMES in Col. The exact words are: OF EVERY CREATURE not all creation .He was not created, He is creator! COL. 1: 16 FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED! Tells us all things in heaven and earth, by HIM and for HIM Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justfied by hIS blood, we shall be saved from wrath through HIm.(17) He is before ALL things, and by Him all things consist. 2;9 fOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. romans 3: 24 Being justfied freely by His grace throught the remption that is in CHRIST JESUS.(29) IS HE THE GOD OF THE JEWS ONLY? is not also of the gentiles? yes! of the gentiles also.(is this calling Jesus God?)Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall you also appear with HIM in glory!Col. 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the LORD CHRIST.
AMEN THEODOREJ!!! god Bless you
Quote (katjo @ Aug. 20 2009,01:34) I was telling you my KING JAMES in Col. The exact words are: OF EVERY CREATURE not all creation .He was not created, He is creator! COL. 1: 16 FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED! Tells us all things in heaven and earth, by HIM and for HIM Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justfied by hIS blood, we shall be saved from wrath through HIm.(17) He is before ALL things, and by Him all things consist. 2;9 fOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. romans 3: 24 Being justfied freely by His grace throught the remption that is in CHRIST JESUS.(29) IS HE THE GOD OF THE JEWS ONLY? is not also of the gentiles? yes! of the gentiles also.(is this calling Jesus God?)Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall you also appear with HIM in glory!Col. 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the LORD CHRIST.
Good Morning, katjoI really think people need to start viewing many scriptures under a different light. Such being,
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Take a close look at the following scriptures,
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
This is saying that Jesus did not exist before, but in the beginning he was planned to exist. Notice it says Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, it does not say God the Son was, but the human Messiah was. God made the heavens and earth for righteous humans, Jesus ,who was perfected through suffering , is the firstborn of the dead and he is the beginning of the New heaven and Earth. The first heaven and earth was made through God’s knowledge of the human Messiah and it was made for him. What did Jesus Christ do with the corruptible world? He overcame it and reconciled all people back to our Heavenly Father. God would have never made the heaven and earth in the first place if He didn’t have a plan to bring it into righteousness.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
The Old Testament shows us that YHWH alone created the heavens and the earth.
Neh 9: 6 You are YHWH, You alone. You have made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that are on it, the seas and all that are in them, and You give life to them all.
Psalms 115:15 You are blessed by YHWH, Who made the heavens and earth
Psalms 121:2 My help comes from YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the Name of YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 134:3 YHWH Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 146:5-6 Whose expectancy is in YHWH his Elohim, Maker of the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them,
Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
We also see that it was YHWH who promised that He would bring forth a human eternal king and call him His Son. This makes it impossible for Jesus to be YHWH.
2 Samuel 7:11 even from the day that I appointed judges over My people Israel; and I have given rest to thee from all thine enemies, and Jehovah hath declared to thee that Jehovah doth make for thee a house. 12 `When thy days are full, and thou hast lain with thy fathers, then I have raised up thy seed after thee which goeth out from thy bowels, and have established his kingdom; 13 He doth build a house for My Name, and I have established the throne of his kingdom unto the age. 14 I am to him for a father, and he is to Me for a son; whom in his dealings perversely I have even reproved with a rod of men, and with strokes of the sons of Adam, 15 and My kindness doth not turn aside from him, as I turned it aside from Saul, whom I turned aside from before thee, 16 and stedfast [is] thy house and thy kingdom unto the age before thee, thy throne is established unto the age.' 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so spake Nathan unto David.
The New Testament also tells us that it was the Father of Jesus who created the heavens and the earth.
Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Acts 17:23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Revelation 10:5
The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven 6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
So once again I think that we need to be careful in matters of how we view the scriptures. Trinitarians see the name Jesus Christ and equate it with god the son, distorting the entire context of many, many scriptures. Jesus Christ is the HUMAN Messiah, who God foreordained at the beginning of creation but did not bring into existence until an appointed time.
So my understanding is that All things were created through Christ and for Christ, all things were not created by a god the son and for a god the son, but for the firstborn of the dead, the immortal man Jesus.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2009,18:12) Quote (katjo @ Aug. 18 2009,19:44) I just know I believe in the trinity because my bible tells me so.
That is strange because I believe you told us that the trinity was not explicitly mentioned in the bible but that you concluded it was there by the evidence, which I call conjecture.
Hello Kerwin. The Bible is full of evidence showing the truth of the Trinity. It is your failure to understand and search the Scriptures that makes it so you are unable to understand the truth. You follow a false god, and for that I pray for you. Christ was and is the true Son of God, not just a mere man as you believe. I have shown you the “I AM” verses, that you continue to ignore. I have shown you in Titus:“and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior, – Titus 1:3
To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” – Titus 1:4So by your thinking of these verses then God is our Savior and as well as Christ. Which is it? Who is the Savior? Not to mention the many times the Trinity is referred to in the letters of John. Including the book of Revelation, but of course you believe that anything that does not go with your beliefs is a misinterpretation, or mistranslation. Funny how it is always what others think that is wrong and not you.
Kerwin, examine the Scriptures and see the light and come out of the darkness of your false god. The Scriptures are the light as we who live in Christ are to live in light. With the way you believe that Jesus was just a man then he would have needed a Savior himself. He would have needed someone to die for him. Oh how I hope you see the light before it is to late.
Jodi I read the first of your Post, were you say that Christ did not preexisting His Birth of becoming a man.
The Scripture in
1 Peter 1:19 contradicts. Col, 1:15The last sentence you wrote, I had to read it twice and I quote:' So my understanding that all things was created through Christ and for Christ.
All things were not created by a God the Son, but for the firstborn of the dead the immortal man Jesus.What!!!!! His name is not Jesus Christ the Son of God? Jesus Christ the Son of God was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. The word preeminence has more then one meaning. First in all, or before all. The meaning is the same.
Christ did not have immortality before He died for us Now He has immortality He is divine and has the glory He had with the Father before the world was. He had,and has both. He is divine now. What does divine mean. He can't die no more. You probable know that, but some do not.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the World was.” Jesus was very much aware that He was with the Father before He created all by the power of His Father.Neh.9:6 Psalms 115:15, 121:2,124:8,134:3,146:5-6,
Isaiah 51:14-15
Jeremiah 51:14-15
2Sam.7:11
Acts4:23,24,25,26,17:23,-26, 17:23-31
Rev. 10:5-6-7
Hebrew 1:1-2
I read all these and yes the Father has the power to create and I don't deny that. However He gave YEshua the work through His poser to do so.
I will never take one Scripture over the other, when it clearly says something. The Father will always be greater then the Son and not all even believe that.
Jesus when He walked this earth He knew were He came, If He did not know what was at stake if He sinned, He would probable Sinned just like all Humans did, He was the Son of God and knew it, He had God;s Holy Spirit without measure.
God send His Son into the world to save the world, so that through Him we might be saveth.
Then were did God send Him from? That too shows me, that He was with the Father before He became a man.
When you take all of the Scriptures you gave us, in a sense it is Jehovah God who created all. But it says by Jesus.John 1:1 also shows us that He was the Word, or the Spokesword for His Father. Because no one has seen His Fathers form or hea His Voice. It is either an Angel talking or the Spokesword of the Father.
If we want to ignore all of these Scriptures, yes then 1Peter 1:9 would be right.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ Aug. 20 2009,10:16) Jodi I read the first of your Post, were you say that Christ did not preexisting His Birth of becoming a man.
The Scripture in
1 Peter 1:19 contradicts. Col, 1:15The last sentence you wrote, I had to read it twice and I quote:' So my understanding that all things was created through Christ and for Christ.
All things were not created by a God the Son, but for the firstborn of the dead the immortal man Jesus.What!!!!! His name is not Jesus Christ the Son of God? Jesus Christ the Son of God was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. The word preeminence has more then one meaning. First in all, or before all. The meaning is the same.
Christ did not have immortality before He died for us Now He has immortality He is divine and has the glory He had with the Father before the world was. He had,and has both. He is divine now. What does divine mean. He can't die no more. You probable know that, but some do not.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the World was.” Jesus was very much aware that He was with the Father before He created all by the power of His Father.Neh.9:6 Psalms 115:15, 121:2,124:8,134:3,146:5-6,
Isaiah 51:14-15
Jeremiah 51:14-15
2Sam.7:11
Acts4:23,24,25,26,17:23,-26, 17:23-31
Rev. 10:5-6-7
Hebrew 1:1-2
I read all these and yes the Father has the power to create and I don't deny that. However He gave YEshua the work through His poser to do so.
I will never take one Scripture over the other, when it clearly says something. The Father will always be greater then the Son and not all even believe that.
Jesus when He walked this earth He knew were He came, If He did not know what was at stake if He sinned, He would probable Sinned just like all Humans did, He was the Son of God and knew it, He had God;s Holy Spirit without measure.
God send His Son into the world to save the world, so that through Him we might be saveth.
Then were did God send Him from? That too shows me, that He was with the Father before He became a man.
When you take all of the Scriptures you gave us, in a sense it is Jehovah God who created all. But it says by Jesus.John 1:1 also shows us that He was the Word, or the Spokesword for His Father. Because no one has seen His Fathers form or hea His Voice. It is either an Angel talking or the Spokesword of the Father.
If we want to ignore all of these Scriptures, yes then 1Peter 1:9 would be right.
Peace and Love Irene
Hello Irene,By chance, is it your understanding that Jesus is the person YHWH from the Old Testament?
The Truth wrote:
Quote The Bible is full of evidence showing the truth of the Trinity
That would be false evidence. The Trinity concept is not even a Hebrew concept but was devised over time in the Catholic Church. We even have records where the debates that determined its evolution were settled in councils. Of course once it was settled people went back and looked for scriptures they believed supported it. There are still debates among the various sects about what the definition of Trinity is.
Does God know everything?
Does Jesus?
Can God be tempted by evil?
Can Jesus?
There are many questions one ask themselves when testing the spirit of what they believe.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 20 2009,14:00) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 20 2009,10:16) Jodi I read the first of your Post, were you say that Christ did not preexisting His Birth of becoming a man.
The Scripture in
1 Peter 1:19 contradicts. Col, 1:15The last sentence you wrote, I had to read it twice and I quote:' So my understanding that all things was created through Christ and for Christ.
All things were not created by a God the Son, but for the firstborn of the dead the immortal man Jesus.What!!!!! His name is not Jesus Christ the Son of God? Jesus Christ the Son of God was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. The word preeminence has more then one meaning. First in all, or before all. The meaning is the same.
Christ did not have immortality before He died for us Now He has immortality He is divine and has the glory He had with the Father before the world was. He had,and has both. He is divine now. What does divine mean. He can't die no more. You probable know that, but some do not.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the World was.” Jesus was very much aware that He was with the Father before He created all by the power of His Father.Neh.9:6 Psalms 115:15, 121:2,124:8,134:3,146:5-6,
Isaiah 51:14-15
Jeremiah 51:14-15
2Sam.7:11
Acts4:23,24,25,26,17:23,-26, 17:23-31
Rev. 10:5-6-7
Hebrew 1:1-2
I read all these and yes the Father has the power to create and I don't deny that. However He gave YEshua the work through His poser to do so.
I will never take one Scripture over the other, when it clearly says something. The Father will always be greater then the Son and not all even believe that.
Jesus when He walked this earth He knew were He came, If He did not know what was at stake if He sinned, He would probable Sinned just like all Humans did, He was the Son of God and knew it, He had God;s Holy Spirit without measure.
God send His Son into the world to save the world, so that through Him we might be saveth.
Then were did God send Him from? That too shows me, that He was with the Father before He became a man.
When you take all of the Scriptures you gave us, in a sense it is Jehovah God who created all. But it says by Jesus.John 1:1 also shows us that He was the Word, or the Spokesword for His Father. Because no one has seen His Fathers form or hea His Voice. It is either an Angel talking or the Spokesword of the Father.
If we want to ignore all of these Scriptures, yes then 1Peter 1:9 would be right.
Peace and Love Irene
Hello Irene,By chance, is it your understanding that Jesus is the person YHWH from the Old Testament?
No Jesus is not YHWH that is the Father. The one who became Jesus is Yeshua. He was brought forth by the Father. How, the Bible does not reveal. Jesus did not have immorality or divinity, only when He came back to His Father did He receive that. He cannot die.
IreneIrene wrote:
Quote Jesus did not have immorality or divinity, only when He came back to His Father did He receive that.
What do you meant by divine? Are you speaking in the same context as it is referred to in 2 Peter 1:4?
2 Peter 1:4(NIV) reads:
Quote Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 20 2009,19:43) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 20 2009,14:00) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 20 2009,10:16) Jodi I read the first of your Post, were you say that Christ did not preexisting His Birth of becoming a man.
The Scripture in
1 Peter 1:19 contradicts. Col, 1:15The last sentence you wrote, I had to read it twice and I quote:' So my understanding that all things was created through Christ and for Christ.
All things were not created by a God the Son, but for the firstborn of the dead the immortal man Jesus.What!!!!! His name is not Jesus Christ the Son of God? Jesus Christ the Son of God was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. The word preeminence has more then one meaning. First in all, or before all. The meaning is the same.
Christ did not have immortality before He died for us Now He has immortality He is divine and has the glory He had with the Father before the world was. He had,and has both. He is divine now. What does divine mean. He can't die no more. You probable know that, but some do not.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the World was.” Jesus was very much aware that He was with the Father before He created all by the power of His Father.Neh.9:6 Psalms 115:15, 121:2,124:8,134:3,146:5-6,
Isaiah 51:14-15
Jeremiah 51:14-15
2Sam.7:11
Acts4:23,24,25,26,17:23,-26, 17:23-31
Rev. 10:5-6-7
Hebrew 1:1-2
I read all these and yes the Father has the power to create and I don't deny that. However He gave YEshua the work through His poser to do so.
I will never take one Scripture over the other, when it clearly says something. The Father will always be greater then the Son and not all even believe that.
Jesus when He walked this earth He knew were He came, If He did not know what was at stake if He sinned, He would probable Sinned just like all Humans did, He was the Son of God and knew it, He had God;s Holy Spirit without measure.
God send His Son into the world to save the world, so that through Him we might be saveth.
Then were did God send Him from? That too shows me, that He was with the Father before He became a man.
When you take all of the Scriptures you gave us, in a sense it is Jehovah God who created all. But it says by Jesus.John 1:1 also shows us that He was the Word, or the Spokesword for His Father. Because no one has seen His Fathers form or hea His Voice. It is either an Angel talking or the Spokesword of the Father.
If we want to ignore all of these Scriptures, yes then 1Peter 1:9 would be right.
Peace and Love Irene
Hello Irene,By chance, is it your understanding that Jesus is the person YHWH from the Old Testament?
No Jesus is not YHWH that is the Father. The one who became Jesus is Yeshua. He was brought forth by the Father. How, the Bible does not reveal. Jesus did not have immorality or divinity, only when He came back to His Father did He receive that. He cannot die.
Irene
Good Morning Irene,Sorry, I thought since you believed that Jesus created the heavens and the earth in Genesis that you had to have believed then that Jesus was YHWH.
You said that, “The Scripture in 1 Peter 1:19 contradicts. Col, 1:15”
Does not your doctrine that Jesus created the heavens and the earth cause many problems, since we are told repeatedly that it was YHWH ALONE who created the heavens and the earth?
I hate to repeat myself here but the scriptures are clear as to WHO created heaven and earth,
Neh 9: 6 You are YHWH, You alone. You have made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that are on it, the seas and all that are in them, and You give life to them all.
Psalms 115:15 You are blessed by YHWH, Who made the heavens and earth
Psalms 121:2 My help comes from YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the Name of YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 134:3 YHWH Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 146:5-6 Whose expectancy is in YHWH his Elohim, Maker of the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them,
Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
Psalms 102:12 And Thou, O Jehovah, to the age abidest, And Thy memorial to all generations. 13 Thou — Thou risest — Thou pitiest Zion, For the time to favour her, For the appointed time hath come. 14 For Thy servants have been pleased with her stones, And her dust they favour. 15 And nations fear the name of Jehovah, And all kings of the earth Thine honour, 16 For Jehovah hath builded Zion, He hath been seen in His honour, 17 He turned unto the prayer of the destitute, And He hath not despised their prayer. 18 This is written for a later generation, And the people created do praise Jah. 19 For He hath looked From the high place of His sanctuary. Jehovah from heaven unto earth looked attentively, 20 To hear the groan of the prisoner, To loose sons of death, 21 To declare in Zion the name of Jehovah, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 In the peoples being gathered together, And the kingdoms — to serve Jehovah. 23 He hath humbled in the way my power, He hath shortened my days. 24 I say, `My God, take me not up in the midst of my days,' Through all generations [are] Thine years. 25 Before time the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens. 26 They — They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed. 27 And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished.
Verse 25 -27 is specifically referring to YHWHHebrews 1:10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; 11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, 12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.' 13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
VERSE 10-13 is speaking of YHWH!! It makes no sense to believe that those verses are speaking of Jesus. They are repeating Psalms 102 which is clearly identified as YHWH, and we know that it is YHWH who does not change. Jesus however, certainly did, he went from first the natural body and then to a spiritual body. He went from corruptible to incorruptible. He went from mortality into immortality. Those receiving the letter of Hebrews and reading it or having it read to them, new FULL well that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, they w
ould not have thought the writer was speaking of Jesus.Based on this biblical evidence I hope you will reconsider your doctrinal belief that Jesus created the heavens and the earth.
Blessings to you and Georg, Jodi
Irene……….Dear sister, Jesus did (NOT) preexist His Berth on Earth, only in the plan of God he was foreordained to come into existence as Peter said in OUR TIME. Jesus is truly ONE OF US, in (EVERY WAY), without exception. See him as one of Us and see How God the FATHER can live in Him as well as Us, we can attain unto the (FULL MEASURE OF CHRIST), The same God OUR FATHER is working in all His creation, creating it anew, “BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THING NEW” ,Jesus was the first to attain to perfection , we are to also. ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2009,22:47) Irene wrote: Quote Jesus did not have immorality or divinity, only when He came back to His Father did He receive that.
What do you meant by divine? Are you speaking in the same context as it is referred to in 2 Peter 1:4?
2 Peter 1:4(NIV) reads:
Quote Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
When Jesus said that IMO He meant after we are resurrected from the dead. Do you believe that we have divinity now? I looked divine up in the Webster Dictionary, says that divine is God. In the Britannia Encyclopedia it has many meaning for the Catholic Church, which I disagree with. God our Heavenly Father is divine and cannot die and neither can Christ now. IMO if He would have had divinity He could not have died for us. I also believe that the Catholic Church has influenced people in a big way. And I believe that there is errors in our Bibles. We have to remember how that Church persecuted Christian and it was that Church that changed even time and doctrine of the trinity etc.
Jodi has quoted one Scripture about the preexisting of Jesus and it contradicts other Scriptures, ( My memory is bad but that Scripture was also in Peter) So what do we do with all of that? Jesus gave us the promise that through Faith in Him, eternal life is a free gift from God.
Peace and Love Irene
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