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Gene said:
Quote T8……………God is a plural word (Elohim or Powers) Lord is YWHA (He exists). Lord God= (He exists with powers). Hear O Israel the LORD OUR GOD is ONE (LORD)> not ONE GOD. God said (Powers said) let us (powers) make man in our image. NO where does it say there are just two or three or any number of beings there. This is assumed by Trinitarians and Preexistences, but scripture does not affirm it. Gene,
What is your Scriiptural evidence for saying that the plural “elohim” is a reference to “powers” exclusively. It is also a word that denotes “persons.” I am glad that you have pointed out that the word “elohim” is a plural word. This draws attention to my argument. And I do not dispute that it refers to “powers”. But your statement above seems to suggest that these “powers” are non-personal. Your own rendering of Genesis 1:26 contradicts your assertion that the “powers” are not Personal Beings.Your translation
Quote God said (Powers said) let us (powers) make man in our image. Think about what you said. You have inferred that God is not a Personal Being but merely a power. “God said (Powers said)….” You have inferred that God is not a Being but is a collection of powers. Moreover, it says that the Powers spoke. “God said (Powers said)”….
If the Powers speak then they have intelligence. And if they have intelligence they are PERSONAL BEINGS.
You have inferred also that man was created in the image of “powers.” So we were not created in the image of Personal Beings.
thinker
thinker ….i don;t recall saying they are a persons , but i believe they are attributes of the LORD YWHA (He Exist). AS all powers are attributes of something. We who have recieved the Spirit (intellect) of Truth have recieved on of these Powers,from GOD Himself. This attribute prevents us from being decieved, as scripture says that even the very elect would be decieved (if it were Possible) why is it not possible for the elect to be decieved , is it not because they have the power to Know truth in them. This is a power and an attribute of The Father in us. This represent some of his seed in us .
thinker man has been give powers (no you not you are gods) yes we have recieved some powers already even when we were born these spiritual powers came from God and when we die they go back to him who gave them.
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,12:40) thinker ….i don;t recall saying they are a persons , but i believe they are attributes of the LORD YWHA (He Exist). AS all powers are attributes of something. We who have recieved the Spirit (intellect) of Truth have recieved on of these Powers,from GOD Himself. This attribute prevents us from being decieved, as scripture says that even the very elect would be decieved (if it were Possible) why is it not possible for the elect to be decieved , is it not because they have the power to Know truth in them. This is a power and an attribute of The Father in us. This represent some of his seed in us . thinker man has been give powers (no you not you are gods) yes we have recieved some powers already even when we were born these spiritual powers came from God and when we die they go back to him who gave them.
Gene,
I don't understand a word of your statement above. You deny that “elohim” refers to personal beings. You say that it refers to “powers.” So Genesis 1:26 should read thusQuote And the Powers said “let us make man in our image You infer that we were created in the image of Powers and not in the image of Personal Beings.
Your “powers” explanation of “elohim” makes no sense.
thinker
thinker……….When it says GOD is in you its referencing these Powers being in you. IMO
love and peace…………………………….gene
Thinker……….Elohim by it self does not reference a being, Add Lord to it like LORD GOD, then you have a Person involved , by the words LORD GOD < Means , He Exists with Powers, this is the way the Hebrew people understood it. If you say the Almighty GOD then that also references a person. But to say Elohim by it self is simply a plural form of the word POWER as any concordance will tell you. What do you think Jesus meant when He said no you not you are gods, and when Lord told Moses you shall be a god unto pharaoh The Lord gives Powers to People. These Powers given to some one enables them to act in Godly capacities. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father How could he say that, it's because He had the fullness of the Powers or God in Him , The Father, God or Power was working through Him. But that did not make Jesus Himself the GOD or Powers that were in Him. No more then it would makes us the FATHER if His Powers were in us. Jesus said the FATHER in HIM was doing the WORKS. That was the power of God dwelling in Jesus and t was what was doing the works , so Jesus referenced it as the FATHER in HIM was doing the WORK. Jesus never healed anyone Himself He did not have the power to do that , it was The Powers of the FATHER in him doing the work. SO He gave credit for the works to the FATHER, not himself. AS scripture shows.
HERE “O” Israel the LORD (HE EXISTS) our GOD (POWERS) is (ONE) (LORD) . If the word LORD and the word GOD were the same then why say the LORD GOD , why not Just say LORD or GOD. because their is a difference that's why there are two (separate) words used in the scriptures. IMO
love and peace to you and yours……………………………………..gene
thinker………. John 1:1……> I will paraphrase it the way i believe it should be understood, … In the beginning was expressed intellect or (word)and expressed intellect or (word)was with POWERS, and expressed Intellect or (word) was Powers.
And also this express intellect or (word) is what enlightens every man that comes into the earth. Ask your self what is a word is it not an expressed intellect. If John meant the word to be Jesus he would have Just said Jesus right why us the word (word). because John was not referencing Jesus at all. IMO
peace and loe to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,16:33) thinker……….When it says GOD is in you its referencing these Powers being in you.
Gene,
But it is still Personal Beinga that are in me. Your “powers” explanation does not work bro.thinker
Gene said:
Quote ……….Elohim by it self does not reference a being, Add Lord to it like LORD GOD, then you have a Person involved Gene,
The Powers are PERSONAL Beings. Your idea that Elohim must have the word “LORD” with it to make it personal is totally unsustainable. Personal pronouns are used of Elohim in the creation of man,Quote And the Powers said “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness The use of the personal pronouns show that the Powers are personal Beings Furthermore, these Powers speak. This means that They have intelligence. Non-personal Beings do not have intelligence.
thinker
Gene said:
Quote thinker………. John 1:1……> I will paraphrase it the way i believe it should be understood, … In the beginning was expressed intellect or (word)and expressed intellect or (word)was with POWERS, and expressed Intellect or (word) was Powers. Gene,
I certainly don't buy the explanation of John 1:1 you have given above. And I don't see any non-trinitarians here buying it either. You are out on a limb all by yourself on this one and that limb is cracking.thinker
Thinker ……….Show me the name (Jesus) mentioned in John 1:1 and you will have a leg to stand on, if you can't brother then there is doubt that the WORD (WORD) Means Jesus and i am using what is written just as it is written, and i don't have to change anything. John was only relating to the Beginning of all things that of the Intelligent expression (word), and the intelligent expression (word) was with Power and was Power. and later in the chapter He went on to say this intelligent expression was the Light (intellect) the enlightens every man coining into the earth. Now if you would also understand that (SPIRIT) is intellect and a (WORD) is a expression of that intellect, then you can understand what Jesus meant when he said the (WORDS) expressed intellect, I am telling you they (the words) (expressed intellect) (ARE) SPIRIT and life. If you understand this then all the rest makes since also. It all fits together brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 11 2009,16:34) Thinker ……….Show me the name (Jesus) mentioned in John 1:1 and you will have a leg to stand on, if you can't brother then there is doubt that the WORD (WORD) Means Jesus and i am using what is written just as it is written, and i don't have to change anything. John was only relating to the Beginning of all things that of the Intelligent expression (word), and the intelligent expression (word) was with Power and was Power. and later in the chapter He went on to say this intelligent expression was the Light (intellect) the enlightens every man coining into the earth. Now if you would also understand that (SPIRIT) is intellect and a (WORD) is a expression of that intellect, then you can understand what Jesus meant when he said the (WORDS) expressed intellect, I am telling you they (the words) (expressed intellect) (ARE) SPIRIT and life. If you understand this then all the rest makes since also. It all fits together brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Gene,
Verse 14 says this,Quote And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld HIS glory…. If the “Word” in verse 14 is not Jesus, then who is it?
btw, when will you get around to answering my point that “elohim” is used with personal pronouns
Quote And Elohim said “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness thinker
thinker………. You said if the word did not reference Jesus then who does it reference, it references the expressed intellect of the LORD GOD HIMSELF> The word (became)flesh means came to be in Flesh, you and I both Know, that a (WORD) can never (BE) Flesh, so it must reference came to be (IN) Flesh, the Flesh here is referencing Jesus himself.The Fathers word were in Jesus the SON and can also be in Us. Jesus said the words He spoke were not (His) but the FATHERS. The same applies to us also if we Speak those words they are not our words but the Fathers Words. Using the word (WORD) as a person is not a correct way to understand it. remember John knew very well who Jesus was and If he in JOHN 1:1 was wanting to refer to Jesus he simply would have wrote Jesus. But trinitarian ideologies want us to (ASSUME) that , but thats not what is written, and there is no reason for us to assume it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene
Gene wrote:
Quote …it references the expressed intellect of the LORD GOD HIMSELF> The word (became)flesh means came to be in Flesh…. You said that the Logos is the expressed intellect of the Lord God Himself. You said that the expressed intellect came to be in flesh. This is exactly what I believe! This is exactly what Apollinarius, a zealous defender of Trinitarianism of the past taught:
Quote The divine Logos became human in the sense that He became embodied and thus shared the structural constitution of a human being. He became an enfleshed intellect (The Christological Controversy p.22, Fortress Press) Hey Gene bro! You and Apollanaruis are in agreement. Yet Apollanarius was a Trinitarian and you are not. Go figure!
thinker
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote
Hey Gene bro! You and Apollanaruis are in agreement. Yet Apollanarius was a Trinitarian and you are not. Go figure!thinker
Thinker asked, “If the “Word” in verse 14 is not Jesus, then who is it?”
Gene responded, “thinker………. You said if the word did not reference Jesus then who does it reference, it references the expressed intellect of the LORD GOD HIMSELF.”
Gene responded further – “thinker ….i don;t recall saying they are a persons , but i believe they are attributes of the LORD YWHA (He Exist). “
Thinker responded, “You said that the Logos is the expressed intellect of the Lord God Himself. You said that the expressed intellect came to be in flesh. This is exactly what I believe! This is exactly what Apollinarius, a zealous defender of Trinitarianism of the past taught:
Thinker interjects in conclusion – Hey Gene bro! You and Apollanaruis are in agreement. Yet Apollanarius was a Trinitarian and you are not. Go figure!
Quite a dilema indeed! Two Trinitarians and a non-Trinitarian agree that “logos” should be identified as “expressed intellect.”
Question: is “expressed intellect” an attribute, as Gene shared, is it the expression of the attribute possesed by another, the Father.The expressed intellect became embodied in Jesus and expressed through him, Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
When I share the “expressed intellect” of Apollanaruis, do I suddenly “become” Apollanaruis?
Yes, “Go figure.”
Seeking
thinker………..I know nothing about Apollanaruis, but if he believed that the word (word) in John 1:1, meant expressed intellect then I agree with Him in that but as to say He gained some kind of Trinitarian Ideology from that I personally don't see How.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 14 2009,13:26) thinker………..I know nothing about Apollanaruis, but if he believed that the word (word) in John 1:1, meant expressed intellect then I agree with Him in that but as to say He gained some kind of Trinitarian Ideology from that I personally don't see How. love and peace to you and yours………………………………………………..gene
Gene,
Just type in “Apollinaruis of Laodicea” on your url and peruse the many options that will come up. He was a trinitarian that was labeled a heretic by the Catholic Church because his trinitarianism was not in accord with the Church. Since I am Apollinarian I am a “heretic” too. He believed that the Logos was the “intellect of God enfleshed” which is what you and I both believe. For you this implies that Jesus was not God. But for me it implies that Jesus is God because the mind or the “intellect” is the Person Himself.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 07 2009,20:43) Gene said: Quote T8……………God is a plural word (Elohim or Powers) Lord is YWHA (He exists). Lord God= (He exists with powers). Hear O Israel the LORD OUR GOD is ONE (LORD)> not ONE GOD. God said (Powers said) let us (powers) make man in our image. NO where does it say there are just two or three or any number of beings there. This is assumed by Trinitarians and Preexistences, but scripture does not affirm it. Gene,
What is your Scriiptural evidence for saying that the plural “elohim” is a reference to “powers” exclusively. It is also a word that denotes “persons.” I am glad that you have pointed out that the word “elohim” is a plural word. This draws attention to my argument. And I do not dispute that it refers to “powers”. But your statement above seems to suggest that these “powers” are non-personal. Your own rendering of Genesis 1:26 contradicts your assertion that the “powers” are not Personal Beings.Your translation
Quote God said (Powers said) let us (powers) make man in our image. Think about what you said. You have inferred that God is not a Personal Being but merely a power. “God said (Powers said)….” You have inferred that God is not a Being but is a collection of powers. Moreover, it says that the Powers spoke. “God said (Powers said)”….
If the Powers speak then they have intelligence. And if they have intelligence they are PERSONAL BEINGS.
You have inferred also that man was created in the image of “powers.” So we were not created in the image of Personal Beings.
thinker
Greetings thinker…….The Greek and Hebrew are replete with ambiguity….For example Elohim could also depict family….There is nothing scriptual about the translation of either the Greek or the Hebrew….The only thing for sure is that the scriptures,by design are meant to confuse the wise and the learned….Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 14 2009,03:27) Gene wrote: Quote …it references the expressed intellect of the LORD GOD HIMSELF> The word (became)flesh means came to be in Flesh…. You said that the Logos is the expressed intellect of the Lord God Himself. You said that the expressed intellect came to be in flesh. This is exactly what I believe! This is exactly what Apollinarius, a zealous defender of Trinitarianism of the past taught:
Quote The divine Logos became human in the sense that He became embodied and thus shared the structural constitution of a human being. He became an enfleshed intellect (The Christological Controversy p.22, Fortress Press) Hey Gene bro! You and Apollanaruis are in agreement. Yet Apollanarius was a Trinitarian and you are not. Go figure!
thinker
Greetings thinker….The term interlect is appliable to a measurment of inteligence as it applies to MEN !! With God there is no interlect,simply because HE IS GOD and HE IS ALL KNOWING!!! I believe the word is omnicient….thinker……….this may be where we differ , I beleive (ALL) intellect comes from (ONE) Source, even ours. Intellect only existes because it was brought into existence and is given to Us , Summed intellect is Spirit expressed through words. Jesus said the words He poke to us are spirit and they are life. What was SPIRIT and Life (WORDS), The FATHERS WORDS, not his WORDS. To lay clam to what is God the FATHERS is to steal glory, and this is what trinitarians do they take the WORDS of the Father and apply them to Jesus, Something Jesus never did.
Thinker …………Just imagine that (ALL) truth and (ALL) intellect come from only (ONE) Begin (the FATHER) and is able to be installed in (ALL) and as a result is able to be through (ALL). If you understand this then you can easily see that there can only be (ONE) TRUE GOD as Jesus said there was. The Father see us as well as Jesus as temples He can cohabit with or dwell in, that is why He uttered through Jesus mouth “DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND IN THREE DAYS (I) WILL RAISE IT UP. That my friend was not Jesus talking it was the Father speaking directly through Jesus. Now our difference is this you see Jesus as a distinct separate GOD Person, I see Jesus as a distinct Person whom GOD indwells. Just like He can us also. I make no destination between Jesus and Me, as He is so am i. I see (ONLY) ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. While You see three GODS in all and through all, there is the difference brother. Jesus also backs up my belief about Him, as well as scripture, and I don;t have to force the text to accomplish it either. IMO
love and peace to you and yours brother……………………………………….gene
theodorj wrote:
Quote Greetings thinker…….The Greek and Hebrew are replete with ambiguity…. tj,
Then let's all just thow our hands in the air and get drunk because the Bible cannot be understood. It is “ambiguous” so why should we bother? And if it's ambiguous then non-trinitarians cannot speak with any certainty themselves.Quote For example Elohim could also depict family…. Okay, let's write Genesis 1:26 this way,
Quote And the Family said “Let US create man in OUR image and after OUR likeness Words are not ambiguous if you read them in context.
thinker
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