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TO ALL,
I cannot reply to all posters because age and other factors have taken their toll on me. I am inclined to reply to David only because he is the most honest and intelligent person on this board. I have done a thorough study on the word elohim in the scripture and have discovered that inu ending is the plural possessive pronoun-suffix denoting things (plural) which are ours.
Examples:
abithinu (our fathers)
aunthinu (our iniquities)
moshinu (our works)
chtathinu (our sins)Therefore, eleinu is “our Gods.”
Correct translation of Deuteronomy 6:4:
“Jehovah our Gods is ONE Jehovah.”
I have determined that the translators have rendered eleinu in the singular for theological reasons which are not valid. I have been on other forums since discovering this and no one has been able to refute it. I wish David or whoever the best in trying to refute it.
Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.Perhaps Jesus was confused, and really meant “Gods”?
Jack, why would you try to support a reading of “Gods” anyway? Do you now believe like Kathi, that we have two Almighty Gods?
(Congrats on the Raven's Superbowl win.)
Jack
Quote I cannot reply to all posters because age and other factors have taken their toll on me. I am inclined to reply to David only because he is the most honest and intelligent person on this board. 
that 's only your opinion ,and as you say your age has taken its toll ,on your opinion as well i guess ,:DQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 15 2013,05:20) TO ALL, I cannot reply to all posters because age and other factors have taken their toll on me. I am inclined to reply to David only because he is the most honest and intelligent person on this board. I have done a thorough study on the word elohim in the scripture and have discovered that inu ending is the plural possessive pronoun-suffix denoting things (plural) which are ours.
Examples:
abithinu (our fathers)
aunthinu (our iniquities)
moshinu (our works)
chtathinu (our sins)Therefore, eleinu is “our Gods.”
Correct translation of Deuteronomy 6:4:
“Jehovah our Gods is ONE Jehovah.”
I have determined that the translators have rendered eleinu in the singular for theological reasons which are not valid. I have been on other forums since discovering this and no one has been able to refute it. I wish David or whoever the best in trying to refute it.
Jack,I am sorry to hear of your trying times.
Hi Jack, I believe that the NT quotes the OT 'elohim' in regards to the elohim of Israel, as singular, that is why I don't think that you can make that argument.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,10:35) Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.Perhaps Jesus was confused, and really meant “Gods”?
Jack, why would you try to support a reading of “Gods” anyway? Do you now believe like Kathi, that we have two Almighty Gods?
(Congrats on the Raven's Superbowl win.)
Like I said Mike, no one has been able to refute it. The word “elohim” has such a wide variety of meaning that we could say that God is also Gods.For example, the federal government of the US is comprised of three powers which are the Executive, the Legislative, and the Judicial. Are not these three powers one unified power? Each of the three powers is a power in its own right. But they constitute one unified power.
The fact is that in Deuteronomy 6:4 Moses used the plural possessive pronoun-suffix “inu” which indicates without question that elohim must be translated “Gods.”
abithinu (our fathers)
aunthinu (our iniquities)
moshinu (our works)
chtathinu (our sins)eleinu is “our Gods.”
The difference between Kathi and myself is that she believes that Jesus was literally begotten and therefore had a beginning, while I believe that that the was not a time that Jesus was not.
Jack,
you said:Quote The difference between Kathi and myself is that she believes that Jesus was literally begotten and therefore had a beginning, while I believe that that the was not a time that Jesus was not. I believe that Jesus was literally begotten/born before creation but existed eternally beforehand within the Father. So there is no time when the Son was not. A birth does not indicate a beginning of existence. A conception indicates a beginning of existence. I don't believe the Son was conceived, I believe He existed since eternity and then was begotten/born before creation.
Jack,
your response to Mike:Quote Like I said Mike, no one has been able to refute it. The word “elohim” has such a wide variety of meaning that we could say that God is also Gods. He just did refute you with this passage:
Mark 12:28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'God' is written in the singular here in the bold part. That should refute your argument easily. Although I agree with you in the oneness being a type of 'corporate unity' or 'plural unity' or 'compound unity'…all the same thing but slightly different words.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 15 2013,11:41) Jack,
your response to Mike:Quote Like I said Mike, no one has been able to refute it. He just did refute you…….
Mark 12:29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
'God' is written in the singular here in the bold part. That should refute your argument easily.
It seemed pretty straightforward to me, Kathi.And Jack, you didn't really answer my question. I was always under the impression that you believe in ONE Almighty God, who is comprised of three different PERSONS.
Do you now believe in more than one Almighty God?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 15 2013,09:48) The fact is that in Deuteronomy 6:4 Moses used the plural possessive pronoun-suffix “inu” which indicates without question that elohim must be translated “Gods.”
I guess Jesus didn't know as much about the Hebrew language as you do. Because he quoted that very verse as “God”, not “Gods”.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 15 2013,22:42) Jack,
you said:Quote The difference between Kathi and myself is that she believes that Jesus was literally begotten and therefore had a beginning, while I believe that that the was not a time that Jesus was not. I believe that Jesus was literally begotten/born before creation but existed eternally beforehand within the Father. So there is no time when the Son was not. A birth does not indicate a beginning of existence. A conception indicates a beginning of existence. I don't believe the Son was conceived, I believe He existed since eternity and then was begotten/born before creation.
Kathy,Scripture instructs us that Jesus was conceived in Mary's inner parts and you claim “A conception indicates a beginning of existence”.
KangarooJack,
Quote
The fact is that in Deuteronomy 6:4 Moses used the plural possessive pronoun-suffix “inu” which indicates without question that elohim must be translated “Gods.”You are assuming Hebrew grammar is like English grammar.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2013,18:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 15 2013,22:42) Jack,
you said:Quote The difference between Kathi and myself is that she believes that Jesus was literally begotten and therefore had a beginning, while I believe that that the was not a time that Jesus was not. I believe that Jesus was literally begotten/born before creation but existed eternally beforehand within the Father. So there is no time when the Son was not. A birth does not indicate a beginning of existence. A conception indicates a beginning of existence. I don't believe the Son was conceived, I believe He existed since eternity and then was begotten/born before creation.
Kathy,Scripture instructs us that Jesus was conceived in Mary's inner parts and you claim “A conception indicates a beginning of existence”.
Hi Kerwin,
The flesh had its beginning at the conception. The flesh did not exist before the conception in Mary.The 'root' (producer of the generations and specifically Jesse's) produced the stump (Jesse's lineage) and through that stump came a 'shoot' which was the flesh that was given the spirit of the root.
Isaiah 11:1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 16 2013,02:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,10:35) Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.Perhaps Jesus was confused, and really meant “Gods”?
Jack, why would you try to support a reading of “Gods” anyway? Do you now believe like Kathi, that we have two Almighty Gods?
(Congrats on the Raven's Superbowl win.)
Like I said Mike, no one has been able to refute it. The word “elohim” has such a wide variety of meaning that we could say that God is also Gods.For example, the federal government of the US is comprised of three powers which are the Executive, the Legislative, and the Judicial. Are not these three powers one unified power? Each of the three powers is a power in its own right. But they constitute one unified power.
The fact is that in Deuteronomy 6:4 Moses used the plural possessive pronoun-suffix “inu” which indicates without question that elohim must be translated “Gods.”
abithinu (our fathers)
aunthinu (our iniquities)
moshinu (our works)
chtathinu (our sins)eleinu is “our Gods.”
The difference between Kathi and myself is that she believes that Jesus was literally begotten and therefore had a beginning, while I believe that that the was not a time that Jesus was not.
Hi Kangaroo Jack,Let's say all that is true, what's it suppose to prove?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 15 2013,10:20) TO ALL, I cannot reply to all posters because age and other factors have taken their toll on me. I am inclined to reply to David only because he is the most honest and intelligent person on this board. I have done a thorough study on the word elohim in the scripture and have discovered that inu ending is the plural possessive pronoun-suffix denoting things (plural) which are ours.
Examples:
abithinu (our fathers)
aunthinu (our iniquities)
moshinu (our works)
chtathinu (our sins)Therefore, eleinu is “our Gods.”
Correct translation of Deuteronomy 6:4:
“Jehovah our Gods is ONE Jehovah.”
I have determined that the translators have rendered eleinu in the singular for theological reasons which are not valid. I have been on other forums since discovering this and no one has been able to refute it. I wish David or whoever the best in trying to refute it.
Hi JackIn Deuteronomy 6:4, commonly referred to as the Sh'ma, it refers to Adonai Echad, which is the plural form of one, as in a bunch of grapes or a dozen eggs. It does not mean more than one God or Gods as you put it, and definitely not 3 as in Trinity. Jesus, the man, was not with God in the beginning, the Word was. Jesus, the man, was born of Mary, but having the full nature of God became the Living Word.
Shalom
AnnieHi Jack:
I am sorry that aging and other things have taken a toll on your health, and would like to ask if there is anything that I can do to help you? I do love you and desire the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.
But I believe that God has shown me that he uses the plural “Elohym” because He is the God of gods and the Lord of lords:
Quote Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward Not that there is more than “One God”, but we who are obeying him are “one” with him in the spirit:
Quote n 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Love in Christ,
MartyLU,
Quote The flesh had its beginning at the conception. The flesh did not exist before the conception in Mary. This much of what you wrote agree with.
The pleasant root of Jesse is his faith as opposed to a bitter root mentioned in Deuteronomy 29:18 and other passages.
Kerwin,
I suggest that the root that the people were warned not to choose, which delivers bitter poisons, are the gods of the nations that are not the LORD God. That is what Deut 29 is about…the gods of the nations. A root would be the ultimate support of the plant, i.e. their so called gods.Deut 29:10“You are standing today all of you before the Lord your God: the heads of your tribes,d your elders, and your officers, all the men of Israel, 11your little ones, your wives, and the sojourner who is in your camp, from the one who chops your wood to the one who draws your water, 12so that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the Lord your God, which the Lord your God is making with you today, 13that he may establish you today as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. 14It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant, 15but with whoever is standing here with us today before the Lord our God, and with whoever is not here with us today.
16“You know how we lived in the land of Egypt, and how we came through the midst of the nations through which you passed. 17And you have seen their detestable things, their idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold, which were among them. 18Beware lest there be among you a man or woman or clan or tribe whose heart is turning away today from the Lord our God to go and serve the gods of those nations. Beware lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit, 19one who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant, blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.’ This will lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike. 20The Lord will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. 21And the Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for calamity, in accordance with all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law. 22And the next generation, your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, will say, when they see the afflictions of that land and the sicknesses with which the Lord has made it sick— 23the whole land burned out with brimstone and salt, nothing sown and nothing growing, where no plant can sprout, an overthrow like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger and wrath— 24all the nations will say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land? What caused the heat of this great anger?’ 25Then people will say, ‘It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt, 26and went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them. 27Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, bringing upon it all the curses written in this book, 28and the Lord uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as they are this day.’
29“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
This passage is all about going after other gods and abandoning the covenant that the LORD made with them to be their God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 21 2013,09:00) Kerwin,
I suggest that the root that the people were warned not to choose, which delivers bitter poisons, are the gods of the nations that are not the LORD God. That is what Deut 29 is about…the gods of the nations. A root would be the ultimate support of the plant, i.e. their so called gods.Deut 29:10“You are standing today all of you before the Lord your God: the heads of your tribes,d your elders, and your officers, all the men of Israel, 11your little ones, your wives, and the sojourner who is in your camp, from the one who chops your wood to the one who draws your water, 12so that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the Lord your God, which the Lord your God is making with you today, 13that he may establish you today as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. 14It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant, 15but with whoever is standing here with us today before the Lord our God, and with whoever is not here with us today.
16“You know how we lived in the land of Egypt, and how we came through the midst of the nations through which you passed. 17And you have seen their detestable things, their idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold, which were among them. 18Beware lest there be among you a man or woman or clan or tribe whose heart is turning away today from the Lord our God to go and serve the gods of those nations. Beware lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit, 19one who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant, blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.’ This will lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike. 20The Lord will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. 21And the Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for calamity, in accordance with all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law. 22And the next generation, your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, will say, when they see the afflictions of that land and the sicknesses with which the Lord has made it sick— 23the whole land burned out with brimstone and salt, nothing sown and nothing growing, where no plant can sprout, an overthrow like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger and wrath— 24all the nations will say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land? What caused the heat of this great anger?’ 25Then people will say, ‘It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt, 26and went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them. 27Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, bringing upon it all the curses written in this book, 28and the Lord uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as they are this day.’
29“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
This passage is all about going after other gods and abandoning the covenant that the LORD made with them to be their God.
LU,I see a root as having faith. Those that are bitter roots have faith in those that are not Yahweh. Jesse put his faith in Yahweh.
I believe you are saying the same thing.
Here is another passage that speaks of a bitter root.
Hebrews 12:15
King James Version (KJV)15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
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