Echad and elohym part 2

[JustAskin]

TT,
You kill me.

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
God empowered His Son with His Spirit and that glory fills him.

Of course you must believe in Jesus as he is the appointed source of that life giving Spirit for men.

If you have the Son you have life.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2010,17:55)

You and WJ scream the word “ALL” in the “all power and authority” verse.  So I will scream the “ALWAYS” in this verse back at you.  What does ALWAYS  mean, Jack.  Only when I'm on earth?

Mike

More of your circular reasoning!

Jesus always pleases the Father because it is his nature to do only what the Father would do, thats because he is in very nature God just as the Father is in very nature God!

Jesus is not “subject” to the Father at this time and he can will to do as he pleases.

A close look at Jesus claim is that he is “equal” to the Father once again. For his claim is he “Always” pleases the Father.

So tell me mike, does pleasing someone imply servitude?

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 20 2010,10:18)

TT, You kill me.

JA,

You should give an intelligent reply or be quiet. Why did David say to Jehovah, “My Adonay (God) is at your right hand” (Psalm 110:5). In verse 1 David calls Messiah His “adonai” or Lord. But in verse 5 he calls Messiah his “adonay” (God). According to Strong's the word in verse 5 “adonay” is the proper name for God alone (Strong's #136).

“My Adonay (God) is at your right hand.” Therefore, David believed that it was his God who sits at Jehovah's right hand.

thinker

[mikeboll64]

Hi Thinker,

Do the Scriptures say anywhere that Jesus has given power, authority, or anything else for that matter to Jehovah?

You said:

Quote

This is because you believe in the God of the old covenant.

God doesn't change.  And there aren't two different ones.

You said:

Quote

Show from scripture where Christ's Father is called His “Lord.”

Matthew 11:25 NIV
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

If the Father is Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't that include Jesus, too?  Now you show from Scripture where Jehovah calls Jesus “MY GOD”.

You said:

Quote

It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to figure out that if the Father attributes the creation to Jesus, then all references to the Creator in the old testament would be Jesus.

Yes, He created the heavens and the earth BY “Wisdom”, another title of His Son in Proverbs 8.  But to make it more clear to you, read Acts 4.

24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
  ” 'Why do the nations rage
     and the peoples plot in vain?
   26The kings of the earth take their stand
     and the rulers gather together
     against the Lord
     AND against his Anointed One.27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

I know that's a lot of Scripture to post, but I wanted to make sure you see it in context.  It starts out clearly explaining that they are praying to Jehovah, the Father.  Then they recognize that it was He that spoke through David about His “anointed one”.  Then they clarify that this anointed one is Jesus.  This further affirms that the prayer is to Jehovah, not “God the Son” because “God the Son” doesn't have an anointed one named Jesus – he is that anointed one.  This is where they call Jesus God's “holy servant”.  The part I posted for you before.  The part to which you responded, “As usual, you've taken what Peter said out of context.  He was talking about the pre-exalted Jesus.  Jesus is not God's servant anymore, Mike.”  (Or something to that effect.)  Which is why I included verse 29 and 30 this time.  Do you see the bolded “NOW”?  “Now” they were asking for miracles through the name of God's STILL holy servant Jesus.  AFTER he was exalted.  The servant who still ALWAYS pleases his Father and God.  Two birds with one stone!   Jehovah is the creator of heaven and earth, His Son is the master craftsman that carried out the work.  Both can share the credit of the creation, but it is important to know which one was the source.  And that is the one FROM whom all things come.

You said:

Quote

I said that the word elohim when used with the singular verb indicates one God. But the plural pronouns indicate a plurality of persons. This is the grammmar I believe is biblical.

“Grammmar”?  How do you get “plurality of persons” out of “GODS”?  Wouldn't it be a “plurality of Gods”?  Walk me through how you come to “plurality of persons inside one God”.

You said:

Quote

Jesus manifested His own glory (power).

ALL power ultimately comes from Jehovah, and He is ONE.

You said:

Quote

You're being evasive. How can a mere creature claim that he has “kept” people saved?

And you're being obstinate.  You KNOW what he is saying in that Scripture.

You said:

Quote

It CLEARLY says that Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder. Then it says that God is the builder. The implication is clear.

Read Peter's prayer above.  The implication doesn't seem all that clear to him, or to ANY NT writer for that matter.  They ALL know the difference between Jehovah and Jesus.  And they ALL know that only one of them is God Almighty.  

You said:

Quote

David replied to Jehovah: “My Adonay (God) is at your right hand” (Ps. 110:5).

You say “adonay” always means “God”.  Here's what Online Bible Study Tools says:

'Adonay TWOT – 27b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ad-o-noy'    Noun Masculine  

Definition
my lord, lord
of men
of God
Lord – title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence

Looks like it can even be used of men, Jack.  It just basically means the same thing as “adonai”.  But while we're on Psalm 110, let's actually look at what it is saying, shall we?

1 The LORD says to my Lord:
      “Sit at my right hand
      until I make your enemies
      a footstool for your feet.”

Jehovah says to Jesus, “Sit at my right hand”.  That is not a position of equality, Jack.  Then He says He will bust down Jesus' enemies. Why would God Almighty need someone else to break his enemies for him?

2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;
      you will rule in the midst of your enemies.

Jehovah is the one who decides the range and extent of Jesus' rule.

4 The LORD has sworn
      and will not change his mind:
      “You are a priest forever,
      in the order of Melchizedek.”

Jehovah is the one who anoints Jesus as HIS PRIEST.
A Priest is the one who goes between the people and God, not God himself.

5 The Lord is at your right hand;
      he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.

The Lord Jesus (not God) is at Jehovah's right hand.  Again, NOT a position of equality.  And look at how some ancient manuscripts show verse 7:

7 The One who grants succession will set him in authority ;
      therefore he will lift up his head.

Will Jesus set himself in authority?  So once again, while posting Scriptures you think will help you prove a trinity, it has backfired on you.  I wonder if it's because the Bible DOESN'T actually teach a trinity.  Please answer to both the bolded points.

You said:

Quote

The verb is aorist which indicates completed action in past time. God was not “giving” the Revelation to Jesus. He “GAVE” it to Him at His exaltation.

So it couldn't mean yesterday while he was in heaven?     It has to mean it was at his exaltation?

You said:

Quote

I think you are posting too much Mike. I gave you the scripture which says that Jesus was raised up from the dead by the “glory” of the Father. It is plain that the word “doxa” (glory) means “power.” Jesus was raised from the dead by the “power” of the Father.

I think you misrepresent the truth too much, Jack.  Online Bible Study Tools on the word “doxa”:

Doxa 2:233,178
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
dox'-ah    Noun Feminine  

Definition
opinion, judgment, view
opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
splendor, brightness
of the moon, sun, stars
magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
majesty
a thing belonging to God
the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
a thing belonging to Christ 3c
the kingly majesty of the Messiah 3c
the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
of the angels 3c
as apparent in their exterior brightness
a most glorious condition, most exalted state
of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

 
King James Word Usage – Total: 168
glory 145, glorious 10, honour 6, praise 4, dignity 2, worship 1

I see almost too many definitions to count.  But I don't see “power” at all.  And notice how the KJV translates it 168 times.  None of them “power”.  And none of them even majesty, which is the closest match to “power” listed.  That's why I wanted the Scripture, Jack.  You are not to be trusted, and that's sad.  In your own words, “Hey, Vine ain't perfect”

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,10:40)

Jesus is not “subject” to the Father at this time and he can will to do as he pleases.

Hi WJ,

Please stop with this argument. You guys embarrass yourselves with this one. All you're saying is that your “equal God Almighty” will soon be subjected under “the ONLY true God, Jehovah”. Does that make sense? Does God become less than God at any time? Scriptures say that God never changes.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,09:29)

So the argument that because all things were through Jesus means that he cannot be God is a straw man also. For everything comes to us through and from Jesus also! WJ

Hi WJ,

All squares are rectangles.  But are all rectangles squares?  

Everything can be said to come from God and through God and for God, etc.  God is the ultimate source of everything.  So naturally all things come FROM Him.  

But things can be said to come THROUGH Him by way of His Spirit, Jesus, the prophets, etc.  

And SOME things can be said to come FROM Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, etc., even though they ultimately came from God in the first place.  Like peace, love, blessings, etc.

But ALL things can ONLY be said to come FROM One – Jehovah.  Get it?

peace and love,
Mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2010,23:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,10:40) Mike More of your circular reasoning! Jesus always pleases the Father because it is his nature to do only what the Father would do, thats because he is in very nature God just as the Father is in very nature God! Jesus is not “subject” to the Father at this time and he can will to do as he pleases. A close look at Jesus claim is that he is “equal” to the Father once again. For his claim is he “Always” pleases the Father. So tell me mike, does pleasing someone imply servitude? WJ Hi WJ, Please stop with this argument.  You guys embarrass yourselves with this one.  All you're saying is that your “equal God Almighty” will soon be subjected under “the ONLY true God, Jehovah”.  Does that make sense?  Does God become less than God at any time?  Scriptures say that God never changes. peace and love, mike

Mike

Why, because you do not like the Truth or the reality that Jesus possesses all things and he is the supreme ruler now?

Somehow you think that because Jesus subjects the Kingdom and himself back to the Father willingly that that means he is less God.

Was the Father less God when he gave it all to Jesus?

The Spirit of God is subject to Jesus at this time. Is the Spirit of God less God?

But Jesus Kingdom according to scriptures will never end and the increase of his Kingdom will never end.

The purpose of subjecting it back to the Father is so that God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will be all in all!

There will no longer need to be a mediator. But I do not expect you to get it.

Nevertheless, stop with your Jesus is some little servant claims.

Because the reality is Jesus is supreme ruler sitting in the throne of God ruling as God and all things are being made subject to him.

This seems to be a thorn in you crawl, because it shows equality with God!

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,09:29)

Mike For from him and “through him and to him are all things”. To him be the glory forever! Amen. 1 Cor 11:36 WJ

HI WJ,

Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (thethinker @ April 20 2010,14:00)

Quote (JustAskin @ April 20 2010,10:18) TT, You kill me. JA, “My Adonay (God) is at your right hand.” Therefore, David believed that it was his God who sits at Jehovah's right hand. thinker

Hi Thinker,

Get your FACTS straight Thinker: [אדני] Âdônây means ONLY “Owner”. (Click Here)

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,15:59)

Mike The Spirit of God is subject to Jesus at this time. Is the Spirit of God less God? WJ

Hi WJ,

That seems to be what 'you' suggest? (Click Here)

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2010,23:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,09:29) So the argument that because all things were through Jesus means that he cannot be God is a straw man also. For everything comes to us through and from Jesus also! WJ Hi WJ, All squares are rectangles.  But are all rectangles squares?   Everything can be said to come from God and through God and for God, etc.  God is the ultimate source of everything.  So naturally all things come FROM Him.   But things can be said to come THROUGH Him by way of His Spirit, Jesus, the prophets, etc.   And SOME things can be said to come FROM Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, etc., even though they ultimately came from God in the first place.  Like peace, love, blessings, etc. But ALL things can ONLY be said to come FROM One – Jehovah.  Get it? peace and love, Mike

Mike

Apparantly you don't get it.

Jesus and the Father are one. Like the Sun and the Sunrays, you cannot have one without the other.

But you want to seperate them into God and some sort of demi-god, God working through a lesser god. God some time way back in time brought birth (spawned) a demi-god and called it his only begotten son. But this son was not like his Father in everyway. He was a half breed. Not fully God, but some other type of being.

Is that about right Mike?

This lesser god is simply a funnel who has no substance or life of his own.

This lesser god cannot will to save whom he wills.

This lesser god cannot reveal the Father to whom he wills.

This lesser god is merely a puppet on a string who has no life, no power, no authority, no people, no sheep, of his own because it all comes straight from the Father and Jesus is just a little puppet that passes it on.

Is that about right? Is that the little measly Jesus that you serve?

Or is he supreme ruler who possesses all things Mike, and who in every way is exactly like his Father in nature?

You merely give lip service to Jesus, for to you it seems he is nothing but a little tiny god sitting under the Fathers throne at his feet.

Does that pretty much put it in words for you Mike?

Is Jesus supreme ruler or not Mike?

So tell me once again without all the spin how that if all things come through the Father and Jesus how Jesus is not equally God?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So you admit the sunrays are an expression of the Sun like the Spirit in Christ is an expression of God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2010,23:09)

Hi Thinker, Do the Scriptures say anywhere that Jesus has given power, authority, or anything else for that matter to Jehovah?

Mike

Yes, the scriptures say Jesus will give back the Kingdom to the Father and subject himself who has all authority and power to the Father!

Say it isn't so!

WJ

[JustAskin]

WJ,
I'm glad that I don't.

I'll leave Mike to answer your list of questions but you do realise that you have exposed yourself with Scriptural untruths?

None the less, your questions are useful to the likes of Mike, Nick and myself, to help hone our Scriptural responses to those if wrongful thinking, misunderstanding due to misguidance, and the purely ignorant.

Not sure which category you are in but none the less, again!, you are the best adversary in this forum. Hey, I Just, complemented, excuse the pun…

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 20 2010,02:55)

WJ, I'm glad that I don't. I'll leave Mike to answer your list of questions but you do realise that you have exposed yourself with Scriptural untruths? None the less, your questions are useful to the likes of Mike, Nick and myself, to help hone our Scriptural responses to those if wrongful thinking, misunderstanding due to misguidance, and the purely ignorant. Not sure which category you are in but none the less, again!, you are the best adversary in this forum. Hey, I Just, complemented, excuse the pun…

JA

Like Jack said, why not answer the questions rather than just puke out more accusing diatribe?

Do the scriptures teach that Jesus will subject himself who has all authority and power and the Kingdom back to the Father or not?

WJ

[JustAskin]

Oohh, WJ, getting aggressive…. not like you – Whazup, strugglling??? Are you going to set jack onto me?

Hey, I thought we had a Debate “JustAskin vrs WorshippingJesus”?

You know, this could be so much less painful if you had the mind to believe.

Look through the Posts, WJ, Who has challenged me and prevailed (and yet not Me but the Holy spirit!) – check it out – see for yourself – I cannot witness for myself.

Waiting……

Now, please tell me that what I post is 'Puke'.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 20 2010,14:07)

Oohh, WJ, getting aggressive…. not like you – Whazup, strugglling??? Are you going to set jack onto me? Hey, I thought we had a Debate “JustAskin vrs WorshippingJesus”? You know, this could be so much less painful if you had the mind to believe. Look through the Posts, WJ, Who has challenged me and prevailed (and yet not Me but the Holy spirit!) – check it out – see for yourself – I cannot witness for myself. Waiting…… Now, please tell me that what I post is 'Puke'.

JA

You are so immature man.

Grow up and start addressing the questions rather than avoiding them and posting more of your talking trash like you are the only one with the Holy Spirit.

Your fruit is rotten which seems to me is evident that you are not following the Holy Spirit.

I told you when we started the debate that I hoped that you wouldn't rush me about answering because I have a life and also others to respond to. This was a simple question that I had on this thread which you seem to be avoiding. Thats all.

So you can stop with the Holier than thou I am speaking against the Holys Spirit arrogant attitude.

You are not the only believer here are you?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ
You ask
“So tell me once again without all the spin how that if all things come through the Father and Jesus how Jesus is not equally God? “
But then again you deny you are a polytheist.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Where does scripture say all things come THROUGH the Father?

[Author]

Posts