Echad and elohym part 2

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,04:58)

Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,11:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,02:50) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) In the end it adds up to this. It makes no difference what you conjure from scripture. The end result of your doctrine is that it makes Christ a different creature from other humans. Functionally it defeats one of Christ's major mandates. Everything in christ life becomes a matter of speculation. Everything he did in question. Was it God or man that did it. What part of what Christ did can we actually follow. Who can say. it amounts to personal speculation. Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive. They teach nothing that actually helps people to grow in God. They want you to mentally ascend to a philosophical unknowable God and wallow in a mystery. (I will concede that some of this is the fault of this venue, but there are those that go along with this loss willingly and those that see it's failure.) My treatments at the hospital has been delayed for a time. I have to b healthy enough to undergo the treatments first. We hope they will start next week. If so I will be mostly absent from this board. Functionally that is a good thing since I get tired of playing games of philosophy and mental christianity. martian I wish you well in your physical health. But you need to also take a look at your spiritual condition because you are Theologically sick, and your attitude about the truth is evident. Sincererly WJ Get over yourself mister high and mighty. As if I would take any advise from you!!!  ROFL Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive… When a debate is lost it is because truth prevails. So I take it that you would rather hold on to your false doctrine rather than accept the truth, is that right? Like Jack says, your God is unreachable for he can not come down to our level and be touched with the feeling of our infirmities! WJ

Makes no sense whatsoever. You separate God in a far off place like heaven and say he cannot feel or sorrows cause he is so far away without changing his character and leaving his mystical realm.
God's presence is right here with us and not far away. He does not need to come down from anywhere.

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,04:58)

Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,11:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,02:50) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) In the end it adds up to this. It makes no difference what you conjure from scripture. The end result of your doctrine is that it makes Christ a different creature from other humans. Functionally it defeats one of Christ's major mandates. Everything in christ life becomes a matter of speculation. Everything he did in question. Was it God or man that did it. What part of what Christ did can we actually follow. Who can say. it amounts to personal speculation. Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive. They teach nothing that actually helps people to grow in God. They want you to mentally ascend to a philosophical unknowable God and wallow in a mystery. (I will concede that some of this is the fault of this venue, but there are those that go along with this loss willingly and those that see it's failure.) My treatments at the hospital has been delayed for a time. I have to b healthy enough to undergo the treatments first. We hope they will start next week. If so I will be mostly absent from this board. Functionally that is a good thing since I get tired of playing games of philosophy and mental christianity. martian I wish you well in your physical health. But you need to also take a look at your spiritual condition because you are Theologically sick, and your attitude about the truth is evident. Sincererly WJ Get over yourself mister high and mighty. As if I would take any advise from you!!!  ROFL Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive… When a debate is lost it is because truth prevails. So I take it that you would rather hold on to your false doctrine rather than accept the truth, is that right? Like Jack says, your God is unreachable for he can not come down to our level and be touched with the feeling of our infirmities! WJ

You have accused me in the past of limiting God. Who is doing it now. You limit God by saying he cannot feel with us without becoming one of us.
You also limit God by saying that Christ could not do what he did without being God. Again you limit God. A simple human being can do anything God gives him the authority to do. If the bible says one thing clearly it is that a man can do anything if if God directs him to do so and gives him the power to do it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2010,12:27)

If you woud pay attention you would know that trinitarians do not argue from the word elohim alone but from the use of plural pronouns such as “US” and “OUR.” There is indeed only one God. But He has revealed Himself as a plural unity which the plural pronouns make unmistakeably clear.

Hi Thinker,

One more thought on this statement:

It literally reads, “Gods said, 'Let us make man in our image.'”

It doesn't read, “Persons in a single godhead said, ….”

Do you worship Gods?

peace and love,
miike

[KangarooJack]

Mike said:

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Lame and unacceptable.  Because Jesus is the Word, his Father and God cannot talk anymore?  Ridiculous.

Who said that the Father cannot talk anymore! Hebrews 1 says that the Father speaks through the Son (1:2).

Mike:

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You pick and choose a Scripture here and there that is worded in such a way that it can be twisted to say something it isn't even saying.  But then you try to explain away very prominent points in the Bible like “the Father is greater” and the fact that Jehovah is still Jesus' God right now.

The Father is not greater than Jesus now. Jesus is no longer  a servant. The Father is still Jesus' God but not His Lord. In Hebrew culture a son who was fully investitured was EQUAL to His Father. Are you saying that Jesus is not a fully investitured Son Mike?

Mike:

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Did everything come FROM Jehovah THROUGH Jesus as the Scriptures teach or not?  Or did everything come FROM Jesus?

No! The Father Himself applied Psalm 102 and credited the creation to Jesus as I have already shown:

8But to the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works YOUR HANDS:

The Creator identified Himself as the God of Israel and also made an ordinal distinction between Jehovah and Himself:

12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. 13 Moreover, MY OWN HAND laid the foundation of the earth, and MY OWN RIGHT HAND extended out the heavens. I AM CALLING TO THEM, that they may keep standing together. 14 “Be collected together, all YOU people, and hear. Who among them has told these things? Jehovah himself has loved him. He will do what is his delight upon Babylon, and his own arm will be upon the Chal·de´ans. 15 I—I myself have spoken. Moreover, I have called him. I have brought him in, and there will be a making of his way successful. 16 “Come near to me, YOU people. Hear this. From the start I have spoken in no place of concealment at all. From the time of its occurring I have been there.” And now the Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself has SENT ME, even his spirit NWT Isaiah 48:12-16

There it is Mike! In Hebrews 1 the Father said that Jesus created the heavens and the earth with His own hands. In Isaiah we see Jesus Himself saying the same thing. He said, “MY OWN HAND laid the foundation of the earth, and MY OWN RIGHT HAND extended out the heavens. I AM CALLING TO THEM, that they may keep standing together.”

Then in verse 16 He distinguishes Himself from Jehovah saying, “I (the Creator) am sent by “Sovereign Jehovah Himself and His spirit.” The distinction though ordinal and not cardinal shows CLEARLY that the person who said, “MY HAND laid the foundation of the earth” is to be distinguished from Jehovah who sent Him.

Furthermore, the Creator said, “I AM CALLING TO THEM, that they may keep standing together.” This is exactly what Hebrews 1 says about Jesus. It says that He upholds all things by the WORD of HIS POWER.”

Therefore, the Word was the IMMEDIATE AGENT through which all things came into being. When you say “through” Jesus you mean that He was an intermediate agent. But “through” means that He was the immediate agent. The Father Himself credited the creation to Jesus' own hands. And Jesus Himself said, “My own hand…My own right hand…I am calling to them….”

Mike quoted:

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Psalm 148:5 NIV Let them praise the name of the LORD, for he commanded and they were created.

The “LORD” here is Jesus. Again, the Father applied Psalm 102 to Jesus (Hebrews 1:10). This means that everytime you see the words “the LORD created” it is Jesus. When the Father identified the Creator of 102 as Jesus He was by extension applying all the old testament references about creation to Jesus. Therefore, Jesus is the LORD who created.

Mike:

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You are correct that Jesus had a hand in the creation of everything. But everything Jesus did and does is at the command of his Father and God, Jehovah.

The Father did not say that Jesus had “a hand” in the creation of everything. The Father said that Jesus created everything by HIS OWN HANDS. The Bible no where says that before His incarnation Jesus did everything at the command of God. You assume too much from what was true of Him in the days of His flesh. It was only while He existed in the form of a servant that He did everything by the command of the Father. HE IS NOT A SERVANT ANY LONGER MIKE!

Mike:

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THE WORD LITERALLY MEANS “GODS”, JACK!  It does not mean “plural unity”.

But the singular verbs that accompany the word indicate one God. The plural pronouns indicate more than one person. Thus you have the plural unity. Look Mike, you have lost the “plural of majesty” argument. Now offer me another explanation.

Mike:

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By stating over and over that Jehovah is Jesus' Father and God?

Father and God does not equal “Lord.” Jesus is a fully investitured Son. Once a son became fully investitured in a Hebrew family he was no longer under His father. A father was not the “lord” of that son anymore. Jesus is a fully investituresd Son. Therefore, His God and Father is not His Lord. Jesus has no Lord over Him! Jesus is the “only Master and Lord.

4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 4

Where in the Bible are we told that the Father is Lord over His fully investitured Son? In fact, the Father Himself addresses Jesus as “Lord”

TO THE SON He says….Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works your hands Heb. 1:10

Mike quoted]:

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The John who was standing next to Peter when he said this: Acts 3:13 NIV The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.

You cited Peter out of context as you are prone to do. it says,

13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.

When the statement is commented on in its entirety it is evident that the term “servant” refers backward to the days of His flesh. Jesus has been exalted Mike? An exaltation from servant to servant is not really an exaltation is it? That would be like your boss promoting you from junior vice president to junior president. That would not be a real promotion would it Mike?

Mike:

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Are you blind to the clear fact that John thought Jesus to be a separate being from Jehovah?

John CLEARLY said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus.

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His (Christ's) glory and spoke of Him (Christ). John 12:41

Yet Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory. Ergo….

Mike:

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Are you serious?  Aren't you the one who insists that Jesus said “the Father is greater” because he was in a “lowered form” while on earth?  But because he preached the gospel and healed people by God's power and authority, you now say he was God with God while on earth?  Jesus converted and healed by God's power:

You have not been here long enough to know all that I have said about this subject. I have said many times before your arrival here that Jesus gave up the free exercise of His power. This is what it meant for Him to be a “servant.” In other words, He never saved anyone or healed anyone on His own initiative. He always acted according to His Father's will. But when He did have the “go ahead” it was by HIS OWN POWER that He acted.

11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested HIS GLORY; and His disciples believed in Him.

There it is! Jesus changed the water into wine by His own glory (power). John said that He manifested HIS glory and the disciples believed in HIM.

Again, the role of “servant” for Jesus meant that He was bound by the Father's will and authority. It did not mean that He did not have the power in Himself. He was prevented from converting and healing those Jews because the Father had hardened them. But now that He is exalted He may exercise His power freely as He so chooses.

27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

The Son may convert whom “HE WILLS” now. Again, you effectively deny that Jesus was exalted. Now answer my question: How could Jesus convert and heal people if He were not God?

Mike:

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It was a joke, Jack.  I have nothing against WJ and have commented in a PM to him on how sharp he is.  I just thought it was funny that you sounded like you were going to trash Martian if I didn't answer your questions.

I did not mean I was going to trash Martian. You usually use a smiley icon so when you didn't I thought you were serious.

You say that the Father is your God. Yet you deny His testimony that Jesus created all things with HIS OWN HANDS. You deny it in a slick manner by rendering Him a mere intermediate agent. But the word “through” means that He was the IMMEDIATE AGENT in Creation.

Example:

It says also that the Father spoke “through” Jesus. Whose lips and tongue uttered the speech? The Father did not personally speak did He? Jesus was the personal orator. So He was the personal Creator!

thinker

[JustAskin]

Hi TT,

Can I Just Ask a simple question?: What does 'Manifest' mean in the context mention in your post?

[mikeboll64]

Hi Thinker,

You said:

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Who said that the Father cannot talk anymore! Hebrews 1 says that the Father speaks through the Son

Hence the title, “the Word”.  Is Jesus the only one the God speaks through?  If Jesus is present, must all words spoken be attributed to him?

You said:

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The Father is still Jesus' God but not His Lord.

A nobel can be my 'lord'.  A king can be my “lord”.  But there is only ONE God.  You and I agree on this.  Which is the higher title, “lord” which can be said of God, Jesus or men without blaspheming, or “God”, which can be said of only one in the universe?  And by “God”, I mean the creator of everything – The Almighty- not “a god” which can be used of anyone from idols and men to Jesus and Satan.  Which title holds more rank in your opinion?

You said:

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No! The Father Himself applied Psalm 102 and credited the creation to Jesus as I have already shown:

So follow it through for me, please.  Jesus is the one who created the heavens and the earth?  The Father God had no role in the creation?  Is that what you believe?

You said:

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The Creator identified Himself as the God of Israel and also made an ordinal distinction between Jehovah and Himself:

Apply your understanding of the wording to the beginning of that chapter then:

2 you who call yourselves citizens of the holy city
      and rely on the God of Israel—
      the LORD Almighty is his name:

   3 I foretold the former things long ago…”

By your understanding, it is Jesus who starts talking in verse 3.  Therefore it is Jesus who said this in verse 9:
9 For my own name's sake I delay my wrath;
and this in verse 11:
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
      How can I let myself be defamed?
      I will not yield my glory to another.

Is that how you read it?  For the sake of WHICH NAME does Jesus do this?  And was it Jesus all along who won't share his glory with another?

The one spoken of in verses 14 and 15 is later revealed to be the “annointed shepherd” Cyrus.  The language is clearer to me in the NIV:
  14 “Come together, all of you, and listen:
      Which of the idols has foretold these things?
      The LORD's chosen ally
      will carry out his purpose against Babylon;
      his arm will be against the Babylonians.

   15 I, even I, have spoken;
      yes, I have called him.
      I will bring him,
      and he will succeed in his mission.

By your understanding of the wording, Jehovah's chosen ally, Cyrus, will carry out Jehovah's purpose against Babylon, because Jesus has spoken, called Cyrus and will bring Cyrus so Cyrus will succeed in his mission.  Is this how you read it?

You said:

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Then in verse 16 He distinguishes Himself from Jehovah saying, “I (the Creator) am sent by “Sovereign Jehovah Himself and His spirit.

To me, the quotation marks ending in the middle of verse 16 makes it pretty clear that the last part of 16 and the beginning of 17 is said by Isaiah.  Jehovah sent Isaiah, with His spirit.

You said:

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When you say “through” Jesus you mean that He was an intermediate agent. But “through” means that He was the immediate agent.

Where is the Scripture that says all things came FROM Jesus?

You said:

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And Jesus Himself said, “My own hand…My own right hand…I am calling to them….”

Interesting.  Lightenup thinks Jesus IS the right hand of Jehovah.  You think Jesus IS Jehovah and uses his own powerful right hand to accomplish…who's will?  Jehovah the Father's, or Jehovah the Son's?

You said:

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This means that everytime you see the words “the LORD created” it is Jesus. When the Father identified the Creator of 102 as Jesus He was by extension applying all the old testament references about creation to Jesus. Therefore, Jesus is the LORD who created.

What role did Jehovah, Jesus' Father and God play in the creation, if any?

You said:

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HE IS NOT A SERVANT ANY LONGER MIKE!

But the first words in Rev definitely show a chain of command.

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

Who does the chain start with?  Why would God have to give equal God a revelation of things to come?  God gave it to the servant Jesus, who gave it to the servant angel, who gave it to the servant John.  Jesus said elsewhere:

John 8:29 NIV
The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”

You and WJ scream the word “ALL” in the “all power and authority” verse.  So I will scream the “ALWAYS” in this verse back at you.  What does ALWAYS  mean, Jack.  Only when I'm on earth?

You said:

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But the singular verbs that accompany the word indicate one God. The plural pronouns indicate more than one person. Thus you have the plural unity.

What then, do you make of the singular pronouns that are mostly used?

You said:

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Look Mike, you have lost the “plural of majesty” argument. Now offer me another explanation.

    According to whom?  You?!?       Why don't you offer an explanation that doesn't mean, “Gods said, “Let us make man in our image.”  How many Gods are there?  You say one.  I say one.  How can it literally mean “Gods”, then?

You said:

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Where in the Bible are we told that the Father is Lord over His fully investitured Son?

I have a better question.  Where in the Bible are we told that Jehovah calls Jesus, “My God”?  Again, in the history of the world, which title holds more weight?  Which one signifies the higher rank?

I said:

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Are you blind to the clear fact that John thought Jesus to be a separate being from Jehovah?

You commented on ONE Scripture?  What about the rest of them?  Show me from those Scriptures that John thought Jesus was God.

You said:

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Yet Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory. Ergo….

Ergo what?  Jehovah the Father is the exact same PERSON as Jehovah the Son?  I though your God was made up of three SEPARATE persons.  What gives?

First of all, “glory” does not equal “power”.  John said Jesus had all the glory that would be expected of “the only begotten Son of God.”  It was his God's glory that radiated from him.

Second, you say while as a servant he was bound by his Father's will, but had his own power.  But then we must also have that same power, for Jesus said:

Matthew 17:20 NIV
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Is that how you understand it?  Or does it make more sense that all Jesus has done was done by God's power working through him?  I don't deny that Jesus is the most powerful being in creation, next to his God.  But God is the one who decided Jesus would be more powerful than the angels, they more powerful than man, and man more powerful than the animals.  ALL power stems from God.  And it is only Him who decides how much of it various creatures have.

You said:

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The Son may convert whom “HE WILLS” now. Again, you effectively deny that Jesus was exalted. Now answer my question: How could Jesus convert and heal people if He were not God?

I never denied that Jesus has his own will.  He just made his mind up that his will is to do his Father's will.  And I answered.  Jesus healed by the power of God working through him.  He says as much in John 14:11,

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves

He was saying, “If you don't believe the Father is working through me just because I say so, then believe on the miracles the Father did through me.”

And before you say this proves he was God on earth, read Gal 3:5,

Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?  

So God did miracles through other vessels besides Jesus.  And they weren't God on earth.

You said:

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You deny it in a slick manner by rendering Him a mere intermediate agent. But the word “through” means that He was the IMMEDIATE AGENT in Creation. Example: It says also that the Father spoke “through” Jesus. Whose lips and tongue uttered the speech? The Father did not personally speak did He? Jesus was the personal orator. So He was the personal Creator!

And it also says the tabenacle was built by the hands and skill of Bezalel.  But is that the WHOLE TRUTH?

2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts

So the tabernacle was built BY God, THROUGH Bezalel.  Is Bezalel God Almighty?  And if the Father's words are being spoken through Jesus or anyone else, it is a moot point as to whether those persons are intermediate or immediate agents of God.  All that matters is that there is only ONE who set the ball in motion, and that ONE was not Jesus.

peace and love,
mike

ps Jesus must have been the one talking to Moses in the Scripture I just quoted because of the “I” mixed with the “the spirit of God”.

[KangarooJack]

Mike said:

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Is Jesus the only one the God speaks through?

“Who upholds all things by the WORD of HIS POWER.”

Mike:

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Which title holds more rank in your opinion?

The expression “My God” may sometimes refer to one's having a covenantal, familial relationship without the master servant idea. In the Revelation God says of the one who overcomes, “I shall be his God, and He shall be my son.” In this context the word “God” denotes a familial relationship. The master servant idea is totally absent. But the word “Lord” always carries the idea of a master-servant relationship. The Father is NEVER called Jesus' “Lord.”

Mike:

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So follow it through for me, please.  Jesus is the one who created the heavens and the earth?  The Father God had no role in the creation?  Is that what you believe?

There was the divine council which said, “Let US create….” But the Word Himself created with His own hands. This is the Father's own testimony.

Mike:

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was it Jesus all along who won't share his glory with another?

BINGO! I was going to hit you with this next. Exactly! The Creator said “I will not share My glory with another.” He goes on to say that He created the heavens and the earth with “My own hand” and “My own right hand.” Then in verse 16 the Creator said, “I am sent by the Lord God and His Spirit” CLEARLY distinguishing Himself from God. It was an ordinal distinction and not a cardinal distinction.

The Creator was SENT by God.

Mike:

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The one spoken of in verses 14 and 15 is later revealed to be the “annointed shepherd” Cyrus.

Cyrus was indeed Jesus' instrument in freeing His people. This does not change the fact that the “I” who identifies Himself as the Creator in verses 12-13 is the “I” who is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit” in verse 16.  The Creator says that at the time the people are delivered “I am there” and “I am sent by the Lord God and His Spirit”

16 “Come near me and listen to this:
      “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
      at the time it happens, I AM THERE.”
      And now the Sovereign LORD has SENT ME,
      with his Spirit.

Mike:

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To me, the quotation marks ending in the middle of verse 16 makes it pretty clear that the last part of 16 and the beginning of 17 is said by Isaiah.  Jehovah sent Isaiah, with His spirit.

Sorry dude! There are no quotation marks in the original Hebrew. And there is no change in the identity of the first person “I” in verses 12 thru 16. The first person “I” of verse 12 remains the same thru verse 16. In verse 15 the Creator says, “I have called him” (Cyrus). Therefore, the “I” remains the same person throughout. He says that He is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. Therefore, the creator is distinguished form God in this passage.

Your explanation is confusion!

Mike:

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Where is the Scripture that says all things came FROM Jesus?

Your question is based in your artificial distinction between “from” and “through.”

Christ created all things:

To the Son he says,…And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Grace and peace come from Christ:

2Grace unto you, and peace, FROM God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ

Grace, mercy and peace come from Christ:

Grace, mercy, and peace, FROM God our Father AND Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mike:

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Interesting.  Lightenup thinks Jesus IS the right hand of Jehovah.  You think Jesus IS Jehovah and uses his own powerful right hand to accomplish…who's will?  Jehovah the Father's, or Jehovah the Son's?

They are one?

Mike:

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But the first words in Rev definitely show a chain of command. 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

It does not show that there is still a chain of command because It does not say that truth was given Him AFTER His exaltation. It was upon His exaltation and not afterwards that all truth became equally His own:

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. Upon His exaltation all truth became EQUALLY Christ's with the Father. Consequently, He may dispense truth at His will:

All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matt. 11:27

Again, the text in the Revelation does not say that Jesus received truth AFTER His exaltation.

Mike quoted:

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John 8:29 NIV The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”

You are confusing the servant Jesus with the exalted Jesus.

Mike:

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You and WJ scream the word “ALL” in the “all power and authority” verse.  So I will scream the “ALWAYS” in this verse back at you.  What does ALWAYS  mean, Jack.  Only when I'm on earth?

He always pleased His Father when He was a servant. But He is no longer a servant. He has once again assumed His divine perogatives. Paul said that he “WILL BE” subject to the Father. The future “will be” makes no sense if He was subject to the Father when Paul wrote those words. Therefore, He was not subject to the Father when paul wrote those words.

So far no anti-trintiarian here has touched Paul's “will be subject” statement.

thethinker said:

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Look Mike, you have lost the “plural of majesty” argument. Now offer me another explanation.

Mike replied:

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According to whom?  You?!?        Why don't you offer an explanation that doesn't mean, “Gods said, “Let us make man in our image.”  How many Gods are there?  You say one.  I say one.  How can it literally mean “Gods”, then?

I am still waitng for an example from scripture where a ruler spoke of himself in the plural.

Mike said:

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Ergo what?  Jehovah the Father is the exact same PERSON as Jehovah the Son?  I though your God was made up of three SEPARATE persons.  What gives?

Are you going to deal with John's statement or not? I make a point and you don't answer it. Instead you ask me a question hoping I will bite. Just answer my point. John said that Isaiah saw Christ's glory. Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory. Ergo….

I have already indicated that God is a plural unity.

Mike:

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First of all, “glory” does not equal “power”.  John said Jesus had all the glory that would be expected of “the only begotten Son of God.”  It was his God's glory that radiated from him.

The word “doxa” (glory) by metonymy means “power” or “majesty” depending upon the context. Paul said that Christ was raised from the dead by the “glory” (power) of the Father. John said that when Christ changed the water into wine He manifested His “glory” (power).

Mike:

Quote

It was his God's glory that radiated from him

You couldn't be more wrong. Hebrews 1:1 says that Jesus was Himself the radiance of God's glory. God's glory did not radiated from Him. He was Himself the radiance of God's glory.

Mike;

Quote

Second, you say while as a servant he was bound by his Father's will, but had his own power.  But then we must also have that same power

John said that when He changed the water into wine He manifested HIS glory.

Mike:

Quote

I never denied that Jesus has his own will.  He just made his mind up that his will is to do his Father's will.  And I answered.  Jesus healed by the power of God working through him.  He says as much in John 14:11, Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves

Your conclusion is false. Jesus is saying that the works He did were evidence of His union with the Father. He is not referring to the the origin of His power. In His prayer in the garden He said ,”All that You have given Me I have kept.” Have you ever prayed a prayer like that? I have never said to God, “the daughter you gave me I have kept.” Shouldn't Jesus have said, “I thank you Father that YOU have kept those You gave Me?”

He said, “All you have given Me I HAVE KEPT.” This is certainly a sinful prayer if Jesus did not have His own power.

Mike:

Quote

So the tabernacle was built BY God, THROUGH Bezalel.  Is Bezalel God Almighty?  And if the Father's words are being spoken through Jesus or anyone else, it is a moot point as to whether those persons are intermediate or immediate agents of God.  All that matters is that there is only ONE who set the ball in motion, and that ONE was not Jesus.

Your illustration miserably fails because Jesus Christ gets the glory of the builder:

Hebrews 3:1-6:

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Verse 3 says that the glory of Christ is the glory of the builder. Verse 4 says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God because He receives equal glory with God.

Here is another source on the plural of majesty:

Quote

Others, who deem themselves more acute, but are doubly infatuated, say that God spoke of Himself in the plural number, according to the custom of princes. As if, in truth that barbarous style of speaking, which has grown into use in a past few centuries, had, even then, prevailed in the world. But it is well that their canine wickedness has been joined with a stupidity so great, that they betray their folly to their children. Christians, therefore, properly contend, from this testimony, that there exists a plurality of Persons in the Godhead, Genesis, John Calvin, p. 93

One more source on God's plural being:

Quote

The postulation of God's divine plurality in unity is no mere theoretical abstraction or speculation. On the contrary it attests to truth, so important for our understanding of man's creation in the divine image, that God, being triune, is a personal God. God's decision to create man is an interpersonal decision, confirming to us that God is not some impersonal numinous force or world spirit or the construction of philosophical thought, but one whose self-existence is in the fullest s ense personal precisely by reason of His essential plurality-in-unity. AN ISOLATED OR LONE UNIT CANNOT KNOW PERSONALITY. To be personal, otherness must be together with oneness, the one must be confronted and must interact with another, for personhood is a reality only within the sphere of person-to-person relationship. TO BE SOLITARY IS TO LACK IDENTITY, The True Image, Philip Edgcumbe Hughes, p.5

In other words, if God is a Person, then He was NEVER isolated or alone. He ALWAYS had His “only God after His kind” at His side.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
God is one.
There are no other gods

[mikeboll64]

Hi Thinker,

You said:

Quote

“Who upholds all things by the WORD of HIS POWER.”

Where does Jesus get his power?  

You said:

Quote

The expression “My God” may sometimes refer to one's having a covenantal, familial relationship without the master servant idea.

It's hard to even think of a response to someone who thinks “my God” can be interchanged with, “yo, what's up my brother”.  You are out there, man.  Do you make this up as you go along?  Paul said, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Which one do you think Paul thought was higher – God the Father or Lord Jesus?  Jesus must be higher, not equal, because Lord means “master” and God is a “familial term”, right?  Ridiculous!   This just shows that there is no limit to what you will post to try to keep your flawed man-made doctrine afloat.  It's blasphemy, Jack!

You said:

Quote

There was the divine council which said, “Let US create….” But the Word Himself created with His own hands. This is the Father's own testimony.

So then every time the Bible mentions the creator, it is talking about Jesus.  And in that case, everytime LORD and God is mentioned, it must be talking about Jesus, because you can usually link the person talking or being talked about to the word “God” or “LORD” or “Creator”.  What role did the Father play in anything?  Just a member of a council?  Really?  The One of whom Paul says, “for us there is but one God, the Father”?  The one who Jesus calls “the only true God”?

You said:

Quote

BINGO! I was going to hit you with this next. Exactly! The Creator said “I will not share My glory with another.”

So WJ has it wrong.  He tried to use the “glorify me in your presence” verse to claim Jesus was equal because he thinks that Scripture means the Father will give Jesus His glory.  But now we find out that it is Jesus who will not share his glory with another, not the Father?  You have lost it, Jack.

You said:

Quote

Sorry dude! There are no quotation marks in the original Hebrew.

So both the trinitarian NIV and the non-trinitarian NWT got the quotations wrong?  I thought the NIV scholars were “acclaimed” by the trinitarians.  Get real, man.  

You said:

Quote

Your question is based in your artificial distinction between “from” and “through.”

My distinction comes from Paul's, which I quoted above.  Or is he not distinguishing between the two?

You quoted:

Quote

2Grace unto you, and peace, FROM God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ Grace, mercy, and peace, FROM God our Father AND Jesus Christ our Lord.

It's great that you capped the word “and”.  I do that to show the writer knew that Jesus and Jehovah were two separate beings, and only one of them is God.  And that one is “the Father”.  You quote these Scriptures, and then say:

Quote

They are one?

Not to the Bible writers, they aren't.  And what do you say to this Scripture?

Matthew 10:13 NIV
If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.

Were the disciples God because peace could come FROM them?

You said:

Quote

Again, the text in the Revelation does not say that Jesus received truth AFTER His exaltation.

It doesn't say he didn't, either.  Yet you have decided it is absolute fact that it is your way.  Even though the wording of it implies nothing about Jesus receiving this truth before he was exalted.  And it actually implies the opposite.  But you have an answer to invalidate any Scripture.  At least in your mind.  To the rest of us, it looks like a desparate reach to patch the holes in your doctrine.  Because it is.

You said:

Quote

You are confusing the servant Jesus with the exalted Jesus.

You must have misunderstood me.  I'M YELLING AT YOU – WHAT DOES THE WORD “ALWAYS” MEAN, JACK?  He didn't say “until I die”.  ALWAYS implies before he came to earth, during his earthly stay, and after he was raised.

You said:

Quote

So far no anti-trintiarian here has touched Paul's “will be subject” statement.

What are you talking about?  It's like Joseph and Pharoah.  Right now, Jesus has the signet ring to rule FOR his God, later God will rule directly.  That doesn't make Jesus God anymore than Joseph was Pharoah.  Besides, that whole argument is lame.  How is Jesus God Almighty now, but later will become a lesser being?  Does that even make sense to you?

You said:

Quote

I am still waitng for an example from scripture where a ruler spoke of himself in the plural.

I don't know of one.  But the source YOU quoted said it was traditionally used by kings when referring to themselves.  I asked if the kings thought they were more than one person – you have never answered.  Yes or no, Jack.  And do you worshi
p Gods?  Yes or no, Jack.  Because that's what elohim means.

You said:

Quote

John said that Isaiah saw Christ's glory. Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory. Ergo….

I thought my answer was good.  Ergo they are the same person?     It could have been that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory as the right arm of God – which he was for this particular purpose.  It could have been that Isaiah saw the glory of the future one who would give the same answer he did, “Here I am, send me.”

You said:

Quote

I have already indicated that God is a plural unity.

Elohim DOES NOT mean “plural unity of one God”, Jack.  IT MEANS “GODS”.  When will you deal with that explanation?

You said:

Quote

The word “doxa” (glory) by metonymy means “power” or “majesty” depending upon the context. Paul said that Christ was raised from the dead by the “glory” (power) of the Father. John said that when Christ changed the water into wine He manifested His “glory” (power).

Please give me Scriptures so I can check the Online Bible Study Tools to see what you're trying to pass off this time.  I have often heard “power AND glory”, but never that they mean the same thing.

You said:

Quote

You couldn't be more wrong. Hebrews 1:1 says that Jesus was Himself the radiance of God's glory. God's glory did not radiated from Him. He was Himself the radiance of God's glory.

It means the same thing.  If I see a reflection and say it is the radiance of the sun reflecting off the object, am I not also saying that the object is radiating the sun's rays?  Dictionary.com says:
ra·di·ance 
2.warm, cheerful brightness: the radiance of her expression.

ra·di·ate 
4.(of persons) to project or glow with cheerfulness, joy, etc.: She simply radiates with good humor.

You said:

Quote

John said that when He changed the water into wine He manifested HIS glory.

But you didn't answer my point:

Quote

But then we must also have that same power, for Jesus said: Matthew 17:20 NIV He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Could we too be God Almighty?

You said:

Quote

Jesus is saying that the works He did were evidence of His union with the Father. He is not referring to the the origin of His power.

Sorry, you're wrong.

You said:

Quote

He said, “All you have given Me I HAVE KEPT.” This is certainly a sinful prayer if Jesus did not have His own power.

Are you that devious?  You know full well he is saying that he has not lost one of the ones given him by his Father, except the one destined for destruction.  He is saying, “I did good for you, Dad.”

The NIV translates Heb 3 as:

5Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house.

The Greek says “autos” which most likely means “the same” house in this context.  For how can Christ be “a son” over his own house?  Therefore, the trinitarian NIV translates it correctly.  It is God's house that Christ is faithful over.  And in verse 4:

4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.

Does this sound like equality because Jesus is the builder of “the house”?  EVERY HOUSE IS BUILT BY SOMEONE – not necessarily God – but GOD BUILT ALL THINGS.  Does it say that Jesus built a house, like many others do, or does it say he built ALL THINGS?

You said:

Quote

In other words, if God is a Person, then He was NEVER isolated or alone. He ALWAYS had His “only God after His kind” at His side.

This is biased crap spewed by trinitarians.  They, like you, need to answer to the fact that the word doesn't mean persons in a godhead, but gods.  Save the opinions of your trinitarian scholars for yourself.  If you find one with historical evidence, however, I'll be interested.  Like I was interested to hear about how traditionally, kings referred to themselves in this manner.  Thanks for that one, Jack. BTW, when are you going to answer to it?

peace and love,
mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ April 18 2010,11:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,04:58) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,11:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,02:50) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) In the end it adds up to this. It makes no difference what you conjure from scripture. The end result of your doctrine is that it makes Christ a different creature from other humans. Functionally it defeats one of Christ's major mandates. Everything in christ life becomes a matter of speculation. Everything he did in question. Was it God or man that did it. What part of what Christ did can we actually follow. Who can say. it amounts to personal speculation. Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive. They teach nothing that actually helps people to grow in God. They want you to mentally ascend to a philosophical unknowable God and wallow in a mystery. (I will concede that some of this is the fault of this venue, but there are those that go along with this loss willingly and those that see it's failure.) My treatments at the hospital has been delayed for a time. I have to b healthy enough to undergo the treatments first. We hope they will start next week. If so I will be mostly absent from this board. Functionally that is a good thing since I get tired of playing games of philosophy and mental christianity. martian I wish you well in your physical health. But you need to also take a look at your spiritual condition because you are Theologically sick, and your attitude about the truth is evident. Sincererly WJ Get over yourself mister high and mighty. As if I would take any advise from you!!!  ROFL Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive… When a debate is lost it is because truth prevails. So I take it that you would rather hold on to your false doctrine rather than accept the truth, is that right? Like Jack says, your God is unreachable for he can not come down to our level and be touched with the feeling of our infirmities! WJ Makes no sense whatsoever. You separate God in a far off place like heaven and say he cannot feel or sorrows cause he is so far away without changing his character and leaving his mystical realm. God's presence is right here with us and not far away. He does not need to come down from anywhere.

martian

Ah but you serve a mere man. Is Jesus your only Lord and Master? Are you his prisoner and bondslave? Jude 1:4 – Eph 4:1

Are you willing to die for Jesus? Mark 8:34-38

Because if you are not then you are none of his.

And if you are his prisoner and he is your only Master and Lord, and he is a mere man to you then that means you serve a man with unlimited devotion which would mean that you break the Shema.

Is a mere man dwelling in you by his Spirit? 2 Cor 13:15 – Phil 1:19

You are right God is ever present, but only to those who have Jesus.

That is because Jesus is God, one with the Father and the Spirit!

Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and “we will come to him and make our home with him“. John 14:23

How many Spirits do you have living in you martian?

One human spirit and Gods Spirit?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ April 18 2010,11:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,04:58) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,11:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2010,02:50) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) In the end it adds up to this. It makes no difference what you conjure from scripture. The end result of your doctrine is that it makes Christ a different creature from other humans. Functionally it defeats one of Christ's major mandates. Everything in christ life becomes a matter of speculation. Everything he did in question. Was it God or man that did it. What part of what Christ did can we actually follow. Who can say. it amounts to personal speculation. Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive. They teach nothing that actually helps people to grow in God. They want you to mentally ascend to a philosophical unknowable God and wallow in a mystery. (I will concede that some of this is the fault of this venue, but there are those that go along with this loss willingly and those that see it's failure.) My treatments at the hospital has been delayed for a time. I have to b healthy enough to undergo the treatments first. We hope they will start next week. If so I will be mostly absent from this board. Functionally that is a good thing since I get tired of playing games of philosophy and mental christianity. martian I wish you well in your physical health. But you need to also take a look at your spiritual condition because you are Theologically sick, and your attitude about the truth is evident. Sincererly WJ Get over yourself mister high and mighty. As if I would take any advise from you!!!  ROFL Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,10:30) Sorry but I would rather lose every debate then to bow to doctrine that hinders me from growing to be like Christ. All that WJ and Thinker do on this board is keep an antagonistic and confrontational debate alive… When a debate is lost it is because truth prevails. So I take it that you would rather hold on to your false doctrine rather than accept the truth, is that right? Like Jack says, your God is unreachable for he can not come down to our level and be touched with the feeling of our infirmities! WJ You have accused me in the past of limiting God. Who is doing it now. You limit God by saying he cannot feel with us without becoming one of us. You also limit God by saying that Christ could not do what he did without being God. Again you limit God. A simple human being can do anything God gives him the authority to do. If the bible says one thing clearly it is that a man can do anything if if God directs him to do so and gives him the power to do it.

martian

Again, you limit God by saying that he needed a man to do what he did.

God can take on any form that he wants. But you do not believe this.

Jesus said if you have seen me then you have seen God!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Mike said:

Quote

Where does Jesus get his power?

You know my answer.

Mike:

Quote

It's hard to even think of a response to someone who thinks “my God” can be interchanged with, “yo, what's up my brother”.  You are out there, man.  Do you make this up as you go along?  Paul said, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

This is because you believe in the God of the old covenant. The new covenant God says that we may cry “abba father.” The verse I gave you in the Revelation says that “I shall be his God and he shall be my son.” This is not a reference to a master servant relationship at all. The chances are great that if you think that God is a taskmaster like in the old covenant then you don't really know Him.

Show from scripture where Christ's Father is called His “Lord.” Is your father your Lord Mike?

Mike:

Quote

So then every time the Bible mentions the creator, it is talking about Jesus.

Exactly! The Father Himself attributed the creation to His Son's own hands. If the Father is your “master” as you say, then you will accept His testimony. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to figure out that if the Father attributes the creation to Jesus, then all references to the Creator  in the old testament would be Jesus. Unless you want to believe there are contradictions in the scripture.

Mike:

Quote

So WJ has it wrong.  He tried to use the “glorify me in your presence” verse to claim Jesus was equal because he thinks that Scripture means the Father will give Jesus His glory.  But now we find out that it is Jesus who will not share his glory with another, not the Father?  You have lost it, Jack.

I am not aware of WJ's comments. But so what? There are more variations of anti-trinitarianism then there are of trinitarianism. Again, so what?

Mike:

Quote

So both the trinitarian NIV and the non-trinitarian NWT got the quotations wrong?  I thought the NIV scholars were “acclaimed” by the trinitarians.  Get real, man.

That's funny, anti-trinitarians here argue that punctuation is man made and here you are arguing for it. The context does not support your view anyway.  The first person “I” throughout verses 12-16 is the same person. Yet you rely on a punctuation mark to make the “I” two different persons.

Weak and double lame!

Mike:

Quote

distinction comes from Paul's, which I quoted above.  Or is he not distinguishing between the two?

Answer the scriptures I gave:

Grace and peace come from Christ:

2Grace unto you, and peace, FROM God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ

Grace, mercy and peace come from Christ:

Grace, mercy, and peace, FROM God our Father AND Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mike:

Quote

It's great that you capped the word “and”.  I do that to show the writer knew that Jesus and Jehovah were two separate beings, and only one of them is God.

Does it not say that grace peace and mercy come FROM both God AND Jesus. The distinction is ordinal and not cardinal. It's like when we say that there are “too many chiefs and not enough Indians.” The distinction between chiefs and Indians is ordinal meaning that it is a distinction of class. Chiefs are still Indians. Jesus is ontologically God. Anti-trinitarians do not have a handle on language.

thethinker said:

Quote

They are one?

Mike replied:

Quote

Not to the Bible writers, they aren't.  And what do you say to this Scripture?

ANATHEMA! Jesus said, “I and My Father are ONE.”

Mike quoted:

Quote

Matthew 10:13 NIV If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. Were the disciples God because peace could come FROM them?

So you acknowledge then that grace and peace and mercy come FROM Christ?

thethinker said:

Quote

Again, the text in the Revelation does not say that Jesus received truth AFTER His exaltation.

Mike replied:

Quote

It doesn't say he didn't, either

First, it says that God “GAVE” the Revelation to Christ. The verb is aorist which indicates completed action in past time. God was not “giving” the Revelation to Jesus. He “GAVE” it to Him at His exaltation.

Second, Jesus said that the Father would send the Spirit of thruth “in MY NAME” (John 14:26). All here agree that “in MY Name” means “on My authority.” The Father sent the Spirit of truth on Christ's authority.

Mike:

Quote

You must have misunderstood me.  I'M YELLING AT YOU – WHAT DOES THE WORD “ALWAYS” MEAN, JACK?

I answered you man. You just don't like my answer. An apprentice “always” pleases his superior while he is an apprentice. But when he becomes a fully investitured partner he is no longer bound to please anyone. Jesus was like an apprentice. Hebrews says that He was “a
Son” but had to learn obedience through suffering and then He could be “begotten” or fully investitured. Once he became a fully investitured son He was no longer s servant!

Apprentice: One who is bound by a legal agreement to serve another for a fixed period of time.”

NOW I AM YELLING AT YOU MIKE! JESUS WAS FULLY INVESTITURED AT HIS EXALTATION. HIS FORMER AGREEMENT TO SERVE DOES NOT APPLY! SO YOU MAY YELL AT ME ALL YOU WANT. YELLING WON'T MAKE YOU LESS THE LIAR YOU ARE!

YOUR OWN BELOVED NWT EXPLICITLY SAYS THAT JESUS IS OUR “ONLY OWNER AND LORD.”

4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our ONLY Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

It says that many have crept in denying that Jesus is our “ONLY owner and Lord.” THAT'S YOU MIKE (yelling and screaming).   YOU ARE ONE OF THE APOSTATES WHICH DENY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR ONLY OWNER AND LORD!

Mike:

Quote

What are you talking about?  It's like Joseph and Pharoah.  Right now, Jesus has the signet ring to rule FOR his God, later God will rule directly.  That doesn't make Jesus God anymore than Joseph was Pharoah.  Besides, that whole argument is lame.  How is Jesus God Almighty now, but later will become a lesser being?  Does that even make sense to you?

Lie! Jesus is at the right hand of God as God. King David said so. He said,

1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5MY GOD at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Note verse 5 well Mike. David replied back to Jehovah saying, “My Adonay is at your right hand.” The Hebrew word “Adonay” is the proper name for God only (Strong's# 136). David said of Him “MY ADONAY” (My God).

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa110.pdf

You are really a piece of work Mike!

Mike:

Quote

I thought my answer was good.  Ergo they are the same person?

Your explanation was no good. John said that Isaiah saw Christ's glory. Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory. Ergo….

Mike:

Quote

Elohim DOES NOT mean “plural unity of one God”, Jack.  IT MEANS “GODS”.  When will you deal with that explanation

I already answered it. The probllem with you is that when you don't like an answer you say, “When are you going to deal with it?” I said that the word elohim when used with the singular verb indicates one God. But the plural pronouns indicate a plurality of persons. This is the grammmar I believe is biblical.

Mike:

Quote

Please give me Scriptures so I can check the Online Bible Study Tools to see what you're trying to pass off this time.

I think you are posting too much Mike. I gave you the scripture which says that Jesus was raised up from the dead by the “glory” of the Father. It is plain that the word “doxa” (glory) means “power.” Jesus was raised from the dead by the “power” of the Father.

doxa, …at Cana both His grace and power were manifested, and these constituted His glory Vine's Expository Dictionary, p. 153

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1201

I even gave you the link. You got me doing your homework for you now.

John CLEARLY said that Jesus manifested HIS glory (power) when He changed the water into wine and the disciples believed IN HIM

Mike:

Quote

If I see a reflection and say it is the radiance of the sun reflecting off the object, am I not also saying that the object is radiating the sun's rays?

Jesus is not called the “reflection” of God's glory. He is called the “radiance” of God's glory. Radiance and reflection are not the same thing. As the radiation of God's glory he shares in God's very being (or substance).

Mike:

Quote

But you didn't answer my point:

No! You missed my point. Jesus manifested His own glory (power).

thethinker said:

Quote

Jesus is saying that the works He did were evidence of His union with the Father. He is not referring to the the origin of His power.

Mike replied:

Quote

Sorry, you're wrong.

Refute me then.

Mike:

Quote

Are you that devious?  You know full well he is saying that he has not lost one of the ones given him by his Father, except the one destined for destruction.  He is saying, “I did good for you, Dad.”

You're being evasive. How can a mere creature claim that he has “kept” people saved?

Mike:

Quote

Does this sound like equality because Jesus is the builder of “the house”?  EVERY HOUSE IS BUILT BY SOMEONE – not necessarily God – but GOD BUILT ALL THINGS.  Does it say that Jesus built a house, like many others do, or does it say he built ALL THINGS?

It CLEARLY says that Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder. Then it says that God is the builder. The implication is clear.

Mike:

Quote

This is biased crap spewed by trinitarians.  They, like you, need to answer to the fact that the word doesn't mean persons in a godhead

This has been answered above here and before. The singular verb with the plural pronouns indicate that God is a plural unity.

David replied to Jehovah: “My Adonay (God) is at your right hand” (Ps. 110:5).

thinker

[JustAskin]

Mike,

TT lost it ages a go.

I'm surprised you just noticing.

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
The Lord Jesus is NOW at the right hand of God.
He will rule in the name and anointing of his God[ps2]

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike

This is flawed logic, because if all things come through Jesus then all things come from Jesus to us.

Jesus is the very source with the Father and the Spirit of everything that we recieve.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “through whom all things came and through whom we live“. 1 Cor 8:6

Take note of the language Paul uses here. You say that nothing comes from Jesus but these scriptures reveal that it is by Jesus that we exist.

Compare this language ” “through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

with this…

For from him and “through him and to him are all things“. To him be the glory forever! Amen. 1 Cor 11:36  

Here we see that all things are through God.

So the argument that because all things were through Jesus means that he cannot be God is a straw man also.

For everything comes to us through and from Jesus also!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The Lord is the Spirit.

[KangarooJack]

JA said:

Quote

Mike, TT lost it ages a go. I'm surprised you just noticing.

JA,

Let's see your feeble attempt to explain Psalm 110. In verse 1 David called the Messiah his “adonai” (Lord). But in verse 5 He replied to Jehovah saying, “My “ADONAY” (God) is at your right hand.”  

1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5MY Adonay (God) at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Again, in verse 1 Jesus is called “adonai” but in verse 5 David says, “My “adonay” is at your right hand.” See Strong's# 136. The word “adonay” is the name for God ALONE.

So Jesus was the God of David and also of Thomas. But He is not your God?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
We live by the Spirit of Christ.
Creation is by that Holy Spirit-the Spirit renews the face of the earth

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
“Grace, mercy, and peace, FROM God our Father AND Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Of course.
They are one in the Spirit.
Grace, peace and mercy are all from the Spirit of grace.

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You could commune and fellowship with God and His Son in the Spirit if you cast aside your false dogmas and came to the Lord.[2Jn9]

[Author]

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