- This topic is empty.
- Posts
LU,
Please can you point out the verse or wording in Zechariah that shows God giving Jesus His Name, or reference to that.
Also, Hebrews 1, and Gen 18.
I must be missing something because I can't see the link.
Please be more specific.
Mike and JA,
Zech 14:5b …The Lord, my God, shall come, and all the saints with thee.The One whose feet will land on the Mount of Olives at His bodily, visible return is the same Lord called “the Lord, my God.” And, as many New Testament verses indicate, He will be accompanied by the saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13, ESV)
Colossians 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:4, ESV)
Jude 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones….” (Jude 1:14, ESV)
Gen 18 has been discussed so much. The third person with the two angels is referred to as Jehovah. I see Him as the Son, not an angel, and not the Father.
Hebrews 1: And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1 is talking about the Son and called 'Lord.' When cross referencing it to the passage in Psalm 102 you can see that the Lord here is Jehovah.
Quote Zech 14:5b …The Lord, my God, shall come, and all the saints with thee. The One whose feet will land on the Mount of Olives at His bodily, visible return is the same Lord called “the Lord, my God.” And, as many New Testament verses indicate, He will be accompanied by the saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13, ESV)
Colossians 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:4, ESV)
Jude 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones….” (Jude 1:14, ESV)
Gen 18 has been discussed so much. The third person with the two angels is referred to as Jehovah. I see Him as the Son, not an angel, and not the Father.
Hebrews 1: And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1 is talking about the Son and called 'Lord.' When cross referencing it to the passage in Psalm 102 you can see that the Lord here is Jehovah.
Nice post. I get it. WJ gets it. Kangaroo Jack (A.K.A The Thinker) gets it. Millions of others get it. MikeBoll64 doesn't get it….because Mike doesn't want to get it. Mike appears to be a stiff necked scoffer…unfortunately (for Mike).Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2010,14:59) Mike and JA,
Zech 14:5b …The Lord, my God, shall come, and all the saints with thee.The One whose feet will land on the Mount of Olives at His bodily, visible return is the same Lord called “the Lord, my God.” And, as many New Testament verses indicate, He will be accompanied by the saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13, ESV)
Colossians 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:4, ESV)
Jude 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones….” (Jude 1:14, ESV)
Gen 18 has been discussed so much. The third person with the two angels is referred to as Jehovah. I see Him as the Son, not an angel, and not the Father.
Hebrews 1: And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1 is talking about the Son and called 'Lord.' When cross referencing it to the passage in Psalm 102 you can see that the Lord here is Jehovah.
Hi Kathi,We can leave Gen alone, because you admit it is conjecture on your part, not based on Scriptural evidence.
Zech doesn't say Jesus is named Jehovah. It speaks of God coming, as Rev and many other books support.
And Hebrews doesn't say anything about Jesus being named Jehovah.
I don't get it. And the only reason Paul “gets it” is because he, like you, wants very badly for Jesus to be something more than Scripture teaches. He is God's Son, not God.
It's late, I'll look closer at Zech tomorrow.
peace and love,
mikeLU,
Mike is right.
My question you did not answer.
Lord is a Title, not a name.
You are making untenable links.
It always amazes me where people use verses quoted from the Old Testament which speak of God doing or saying something, as proof of Jesus being God when that same verse is quoted in the New Testament by Jesus or the Apostles.
All testimony is FROM God, the Father, and OF God, the Father.
But He delegates tasks to others, particularly His beloved, Jesus, but also to Angels.
So, when He is spoken of doing something or saying something in one place and then another is spoken of as doing or saying the same thing, then it must be understood in context.
Now, you know enough to say that where God says something and then an Angel is said to have said it, that you do not say that that Angel IS God, that the Angel Is God, that God is that Angel…but you know to say that God is speaking Through, by means of, that Angel, that the Angel is speaking the words as directed BY God, that that Angel is God's mouthpiece.
So, how then, when it comes to Jesus, instead of an Angel, that all of a sudden the premise goes out of the window and you say, 'Jesus IS God' because He/he said…this or that, or did this or that?
You know very well that Jesus is not God. Scriptures shows this in abundance, and even childlike logic shows this: Jesus is the Son of God…therefore CANNOT BE God…but the Son of God (The Son of a King is a Prince…the Son of a King is not a King…The Son of a King CAN become a King when his King is nolonger King…and when does God, the Father, become 'Not God', the Father?)
Quote (JustAskin @ May 22 2010,19:08) It always amazes me where people use verses quoted from the Old Testament which speak of God doing or saying something, as proof of Jesus being God when that same verse is quoted in the New Testament by Jesus or the Apostles.
Hi Kathi and JA,So true JA. I've been through this with Is 1:18. If when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about the Father to Jesus it means that Jesus is God, then when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about Solomon to Jesus, it means Jesus is Solomon, right?
And they don't even follow the logic that the Psalm that Heb 1 quotes is definitely about the Father. Is Jesus now the Father? They can't rightly assert that it means Jesus is God, unless it also means Jesus is the Father.
Kathi, I re-read Zech and can't find what you refer to. Maybe you need to spell it out word for word?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,23:55) Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2010,14:59) Mike and JA,
Zech 14:5b …The Lord, my God, shall come, and all the saints with thee.The One whose feet will land on the Mount of Olives at His bodily, visible return is the same Lord called “the Lord, my God.” And, as many New Testament verses indicate, He will be accompanied by the saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13, ESV)
Colossians 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:4, ESV)
Jude 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones….” (Jude 1:14, ESV)
Gen 18 has been discussed so much. The third person with the two angels is referred to as Jehovah. I see Him as the Son, not an angel, and not the Father.
Hebrews 1: And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1 is talking about the Son and called 'Lord.' When cross referencing it to the passage in Psalm 102 you can see that the Lord here is Jehovah.
Hi Kathi,We can leave Gen alone, because you admit it is conjecture on your part, not based on Scriptural evidence.
Zech doesn't say Jesus is named Jehovah. It speaks of God coming, as Rev and many other books support.
And Hebrews doesn't say anything about Jesus being named Jehovah.
I don't get it. And the only reason Paul “gets it” is because he, like you, wants very badly for Jesus to be something more than Scripture teaches. He is God's Son, not God.
It's late, I'll look closer at Zech tomorrow.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,You wrote:
Quote I don't get it. And the only reason Paul “gets it” is because he, like you, wants very badly for Jesus to be something more than Scripture teaches. He is God's Son, not God. I know you don't get it. Sometimes knowledge comes after you surrender your own beliefs.
Maybe it is you who wants very badly for Jesus to be something less than scripture teaches. Don't you think that is a possibility?
In regards to Heb 1 and Psalms 102, the NT reveals who the Jehovah in Psalms 102 is and that is the Son. The NT further reveals the OT.
As far as leaving Gen 18 alone, many have come to the understanding that the Jehovah there is the Son. Not just me.
Zech 14 speaks of Jehovah coming with His saints and we know that Jesus is coming with His saints. I don't believe that it is scriptural that the Father is coming with His saints. It does say that both the Father and the Son will dwell with us. The Father doesn't descend on earth with His saints with Him, does He? Read Zech 12-14 to get a fuller context and see if anything spoken about Jehovah sounds like something the Son did or will do.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 22 2010,03:08) LU, Mike is right.
My question you did not answer.
Lord is a Title, not a name.
You are making untenable links.
It always amazes me where people use verses quoted from the Old Testament which speak of God doing or saying something, as proof of Jesus being God when that same verse is quoted in the New Testament by Jesus or the Apostles.
All testimony is FROM God, the Father, and OF God, the Father.
But He delegates tasks to others, particularly His beloved, Jesus, but also to Angels.
So, when He is spoken of doing something or saying something in one place and then another is spoken of as doing or saying the same thing, then it must be understood in context.
Now, you know enough to say that where God says something and then an Angel is said to have said it, that you do not say that that Angel IS God, that the Angel Is God, that God is that Angel…but you know to say that God is speaking Through, by means of, that Angel, that the Angel is speaking the words as directed BY God, that that Angel is God's mouthpiece.
So, how then, when it comes to Jesus, instead of an Angel, that all of a sudden the premise goes out of the window and you say, 'Jesus IS God' because He/he said…this or that, or did this or that?
You know very well that Jesus is not God. Scriptures shows this in abundance, and even childlike logic shows this: Jesus is the Son of God…therefore CANNOT BE God…but the Son of God (The Son of a King is a Prince…the Son of a King is not a King…The Son of a King CAN become a King when his King is nolonger King…and when does God, the Father, become 'Not God', the Father?)
JA,Quote You know very well that Jesus is not God. Scriptures shows this in abundance, and even childlike logic shows this: Jesus is the Son of God…therefore CANNOT BE God…but the Son of God (The Son of a King is a Prince…the Son of a King is not a King…The Son of a King CAN become a King when his King is nolonger King…and when does God, the Father, become 'Not God', the Father?) God the Father will always be God the Father.
God as the Son will always be God as the Son.
The Son will never be the Father.You say that I know that Jesus is not God, but that is not true. I believe that Jesus is God, the begotten God, not the Most High God. There lies the difference. Two beings with the same nature, different attributes but the same nature. Our nature whether it be a human nature, a beast nature, or a God nature, determines what kind of being we are. The Son of God would naturally be of a God nature.
Also, is Jehovah a name or a title? In Gen 18 and Zech 14 and Psalms 102, LORD is translated from the Hebrew name 'Jehovah.'
Hi Kathi,
You said:
Quote Maybe it is you who wants very badly for Jesus to be something less than scripture teaches. Don't you think that is a possibility? Not at all. I yearn to give Jesus every bit of honor and praise he deserves. Jesus never called himself God. He always deferred greatness to his Father only. He even said, “Why do you call me good? There is only one who is good, your Father in heaven.” And when Pharisees accused him of making himself equal with God, he didn't say, “Well I am God, too” did he? No, he quoted Scripture that said Jehovah called Judges or prophets “gods”. He said in effect, “God has called mere men gods, yet I'm not even saying I'm God or equal to him, but God's Son.” I hold Jesus exactly where he taught – as God's Son. And since he and others taught that there is ONLY ONE true God, he as someone other than that One cannot be God.
You said:
Quote In regards to Heb 1 and Psalms 102, the NT reveals who the Jehovah in Psalms 102 is and that is the Son. The NT further reveals the OT. Any OT Scripture that refers to Jehovah refers to the Father only. The Hebrews were strictly monotheistic and knew that “Jehovah your God is ONE.” So if any of the “Jehovahs” in the OT refer to Jesus, then Jesus is the Father.
You said:
Quote As far as leaving Gen 18 alone, many have come to the understanding that the Jehovah there is the Son. Not just me. Many people believe in a trinity God. Does that make it right if Scripture doesn't back it up? And you have to admit that Gen is conjecture on your part. There is no Scripture that specifically says it was “Jehovah the Son”, is there?
You said:
Quote Zech 14 speaks of Jehovah coming with His saints and we know that Jesus is coming with His saints. I don't believe that it is scriptural that the Father is coming with His saints. It does say that both the Father and the Son will dwell with us. The Father doesn't descend on earth with His saints with Him, does He? Read Zech 12-14 to get a fuller context and see if anything spoken about Jehovah sounds like something the Son did or will do. First and foremost, if it says Jehovah in the OT, it means the Father. That is the only Jehovah they knew, as you admit. And that Jehovah is indeed coming to rule from Zion. Many Scriptures in the OT say so. At least one says Jehovah is coming and His right arm is ruling for Him. If the right arm is Jesus, then the Jehovah who is coming must be the Father. And how can you think that because the apostles are Jesus' saints, they no longer belong to Jehovah? Everyone belongs to Jehovah, including Jesus.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2010,09:12) So true JA. I've been through this with Is 1:18. If when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about the Father to Jesus it means that Jesus is God, then when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about Solomon to Jesus, it means Jesus is Solomon, right?
Just so there's no confusion I'll quickly recap for you where we got to on this topic.Your position:
The writer of Hebrews was incorrect in applying both the 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalms 102:25 to Jesus as he was not the subject in either OT passage. I (MikeBoll64) a 2-3 year Bible study rookie clearly have better hermeneutics and insights into OT scripture than the writer of Hebrews.My position:
I'm happy to align my theology with the NT writer's, since they were inspired by the Holy Spirit and had insights into the OT I don't have. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the writer chose to apply 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalms 102:25 to Yeshua THEREFORE they are messianic by default. I also understand that in the OT there may be a shift in subject mid passage (Ezekiel 28:12-19 is patently not describing the King of Tyre, for instance). Or that passage may have have dual applications (e.g. both Solomon and Yeshua are in view in 2 Samuel 7:14).
Quote Nice post. I get it. WJ gets it. Kangaroo Jack (A.K.A The Thinker) gets it. Millions of others get it. MikeBoll64 doesn't get it…. –Isaiah 1:18
I'm not even sure what you're discussing yet, but the “majority is right” is both a fallacy and unbiblical.
Quote (david @ May 24 2010,16:09) Quote Nice post. I get it. WJ gets it. Kangaroo Jack (A.K.A The Thinker) gets it. Millions of others get it. MikeBoll64 doesn't get it…. –Isaiah 1:18
I'm not even sure what you're discussing yet, but the “majority is right” is both a fallacy and unbiblical.
You're right, it's the argumentum ad populum fallacy. Very sloppy on my part.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2010,14:45) First and foremost, if it says Jehovah in the OT, it means the Father.
That's a presupposition. I'd like to see you try to prove it. Good luck!These words in Hebrews 1:10,11 also apply to Jesus, for he acted as Jehovah’s Agent in creating the universe. The Son is the one through whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (Colossians 1:15,16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) So Jesus, too, could be said to have “laid the foundations of the earth.”
As we have discerned, scripture is often applied to more than one. It often “dual applications” as mentioned.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2010,22:45) Hi Kathi, You said:
Quote Maybe it is you who wants very badly for Jesus to be something less than scripture teaches. Don't you think that is a possibility? Not at all. I yearn to give Jesus every bit of honor and praise he deserves. Jesus never called himself God. He always deferred greatness to his Father only. He even said, “Why do you call me good? There is only one who is good, your Father in heaven.” And when Pharisees accused him of making himself equal with God, he didn't say, “Well I am God, too” did he? No, he quoted Scripture that said Jehovah called Judges or prophets “gods”. He said in effect, “God has called mere men gods, yet I'm not even saying I'm God or equal to him, but God's Son.” I hold Jesus exactly where he taught – as God's Son. And since he and others taught that there is ONLY ONE true God, he as someone other than that One cannot be God.
You said:
Quote In regards to Heb 1 and Psalms 102, the NT reveals who the Jehovah in Psalms 102 is and that is the Son. The NT further reveals the OT. Any OT Scripture that refers to Jehovah refers to the Father only. The Hebrews were strictly monotheistic and knew that “Jehovah your God is ONE.” So if any of the “Jehovahs” in the OT refer to Jesus, then Jesus is the Father.
You said:
Quote As far as leaving Gen 18 alone, many have come to the understanding that the Jehovah there is the Son. Not just me. Many people believe in a trinity God. Does that make it right if Scripture doesn't back it up? And you have to admit that Gen is conjecture on your part. There is no Scripture that specifically says it was “Jehovah the Son”, is there?
You said:
Quote Zech 14 speaks of Jehovah coming with His saints and we know that Jesus is coming with His saints. I don't believe that it is scriptural that the Father is coming with His saints. It does say that both the Father and the Son will dwell with us. The Father doesn't descend on earth with His saints with Him, does He? Read Zech 12-14 to get a fuller context and see if anything spoken about Jehovah sounds like something the Son did or will do. First and foremost, if it says Jehovah in the OT, it means the Father. That is the only Jehovah they knew, as you admit. And that Jehovah is indeed coming to rule from Zion. Many Scriptures in the OT say so. At least one says Jehovah is coming and His right arm is ruling for Him. If the right arm is Jesus, then the Jehovah who is coming must be the Father. And how can you think that because the apostles are Jesus' saints, they no longer belong to Jehovah? Everyone belongs to Jehovah, including Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,You said:
Quote Not at all. I yearn to give Jesus every bit of honor and praise he deserves. Great! Is He Lord or lord?
Quote Jesus never called himself God. He always deferred greatness to his Father only. He even said, “Why do you call me good? There is only one who is good, your Father in heaven.” Jesus didn't come to bring attention to who He was to the people. Jesus came to glorify the Father, it was the Father that would glorify the Son. So, don't limit yourself by what Jesus taught about Himself. What does the Father reveal by the Spirit? Remember that Jesus wanted to hush the evil spirits because they knew who He was. He wasn't trying to draw that kind of attention to Himself. Revealing Himself wasn't the Son's job in other words. For instance, Jesus never told people that He laid the foundation of the earth, either.
So, you mentioned that there is only one who is good and then you tack on “your Father in heaven.” What verse adds “your Father in heaven?” Here are the only verses that you seem to be referring to and none of them have “Father in heaven.”
Matt 19:17
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
NASUMark 10:18
18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
NASULuke 18:18-19
18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
NASUI read a commentary that suggested that the ruler sees the Good Teacher as God and that is why he calls Him good. I wonder if Jesus was looking for faith in the ruler.
Quote Any OT Scripture that refers to Jehovah refers to the Father only. The Hebrews were strictly monotheistic and knew that “Jehovah your God is ONE.” So if any of the “Jehovahs” in the OT refer to Jesus, then Jesus is the Father. Big speculation on your part. If the writers of the Bible were inspired to write 'Jehovah' then they wrote 'Jehovah.' They didn't write only things they understood. The 'Jehovahs' listed in scripture could refer to the Father or the Son if the Father had given His name to His Son.
Quote Many people believe in a trinity God. Does that make it right if Scripture doesn't back it up? And you have to admit that Gen is conjecture on your part. There is no Scripture that specifically says it was “Jehovah the Son”, is there? There is no scripture that specifically says it was Jehovah the Father, or Jehovah the Angel or the Angel of Jehovah either. Also, a majority does not equal truth but it can if the majority is made up of believers.
Quote First and foremost, if it says Jehovah in the OT, it means the Father. That is the only Jehovah they knew, as you admit. There is that assumption of yours again. The Hebrew people knew the name Jehovah but Jesus said that they did not really know Him.
John 7:28-29
28 Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, “You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
29 “I know Him, because I am from Him, and He sent Me.”
NASUAll for now…God bless ya!
Mikeboll said:
Quote So true JA. I've been through this with Is 1:18. If when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about the Father to Jesus it means that Jesus is God, then when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about Solomon to Jesus, it means Jesus is Solomon, right? TO ALL:
Though Jesus is not Solomon personally He is indeed the ULTIMATE Solomon (and David) is He not?
Paul said, “Christ is ALL things”.
Kangaroo Jack
Is. 1:18 said to Mikeboll:
Quote Your position:
The writer of Hebrews was incorrect in applying both the 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalms 102:25 to Jesus as he was not the subject in either OT passage. I (MikeBoll64) a 2-3 year Bible study rookie clearly have better hermeneutics and insights into OT scripture than the writer of Hebrews.
Good one Paul! Have a cigar.
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 22 2010,15:23) Quote Zech 14:5b …The Lord, my God, shall come, and all the saints with thee. The One whose feet will land on the Mount of Olives at His bodily, visible return is the same Lord called “the Lord, my God.” And, as many New Testament verses indicate, He will be accompanied by the saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13, ESV)
Colossians 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:4, ESV)
Jude 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones….” (Jude 1:14, ESV)
Gen 18 has been discussed so much. The third person with the two angels is referred to as Jehovah. I see Him as the Son, not an angel, and not the Father.
Hebrews 1: And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1 is talking about the Son and called 'Lord.' When cross referencing it to the passage in Psalm 102 you can see that the Lord here is Jehovah.
Nice post. I get it. WJ gets it. Kangaroo Jack (A.K.A The Thinker) gets it. Millions of others get it. MikeBoll64 doesn't get it….because Mike doesn't want to get it. Mike appears to be a stiff necked scoffer…unfortunately (for Mike).
Paul,This is why I decided to follow your advice and drop my debate with Mike. He is indeed a “stiff necked scoffer”!
Jack
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 24 2010,16:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2010,09:12) So true JA. I've been through this with Is 1:18. If when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about the Father to Jesus it means that Jesus is God, then when Heb 1 attributes something originally said about Solomon to Jesus, it means Jesus is Solomon, right?
Just so there's no confusion I'll quickly recap for you where we got to on this topic.Your position:
The writer of Hebrews was incorrect in applying both the 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalms 102:25 to Jesus as he was not the subject in either OT passage. I (MikeBoll64) a 2-3 year Bible study rookie clearly have better hermeneutics and insights into OT scripture than the writer of Hebrews.My position:
I'm happy to align my theology with the NT writer's, since they were inspired by the Holy Spirit and had insights into the OT I don't have. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the writer chose to apply 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalms 102:25 to Yeshua THEREFORE they are messianic by default. I also understand that in the OT there may be a shift in subject mid passage (Ezekiel 28:12-19 is patently not describing the King of Tyre, for instance). Or that passage may have have dual applications (e.g. both Solomon and Yeshua are in view in 2 Samuel 7:14).
Hi Paul,You misspoke. You posted what is not true. But when you get time to finish what you start, we can continue the Heb 1 debate.
For the record, I said exactly what I told JA. If you are so sure that applying what was formerly said of Jehovah to Jesus means he is the exact same being as Jehovah, then applying what was formerly said of Solomon to Jesus must therefore mean that he is the exact same being as Solomon.
peace and love,
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
