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Hi Thinker,
You said:
Quote So you cannot prove the plural of majesty theory scripturally. No more than you can prove the “plural god” theory Scripturally.
You said:
Quote You did not give the link to the site so I can check you out. You must always give the link so the other person can determine if you are cutting and pasting out of context or not. I seriously don't know how. Did you see when I tried to give you the “adonay” link? It didn't come out as a link at all. I started reading the Bible only two years ago. I started playing with this computer only 5 or 6 months ago. Anyway, I'll try. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htm Is that a “link”? That's to “elohim” and you can click on el Armana and Phoenician from there.
I said:
Quote Let me amend my statement. Jesus was “caused to exist” when God begat/created/borne him. And it was before the creation of anything else. You said:
Quote So you are changing your mind? You no longer “stand by” your original statement? Thinker, my original thought was, “I can't Scripturally prove when Jesus was begotten. Was it 6000 years ago? Was it a billion? But the way I worded it was stupid. And the fact I didn't catch it the next time you brougt it up was due to me being too lazy to read what I thought I knew was there. Our whole debate so far has been me arguing that a person has NEVER been begotten at a date later than his coming into existence. That's why I don't by the “begotten is only a title” argument of yours. Would you agree that has been my stand from the beginning?
I also thought it wrong to walk around talking to Jesus. I thought we were to talk only to God through Jesus. Lightenup caused me to look into it and I found out I was wrong and admitted it.
Nick has caused me to learn that Adam was never said to be created “perfect” and that the 144,000 are not the ones who would reign as kings.
JA has caused me to throw away my “Jesus on a cross” plate because it might be thought of as an idol.
I'm not perfect, and I told you from the jump I was here to learn.
You said:
Quote I do not believe the name “elohim” teaches the trinity per se. I believe it teaches that God is a plural unity. It is the new testament that teaches that God is a tri-unity. God progressively revealed Himself to men. Okay, how do you get “plural unity of persons” out of the word “gods”? Wouldn't you get “plural gods”?
In other words, how do you get ANYTHING besides “more than one god” out of the word “elohim”?You said:
Quote So God invited others to create man with Him (“let US make man”)? And we are created in their image too (in OUR image)? Is this really that hard for you to understand? Or does it make so much sense that you have to fake confusion?
We know that all things came from Jehovah. We know that all things came through Jesus. You make a point of saying Jesus created with his own hands, as if that means he's God or something.
Don't you think God could have been saying to Jesus, “Well Son, we did pretty good on those zebras, what with the black and white stripes and all. Now I think we should make a creature called man. Let us make man in our image. We'll give him a higher understanding and feelings and such, like we have.”Is that impossible? Show me how?
Your source said:
Quote God acts independently without angelic counsel. How in the world does he know that? The Isaiah “Here I am, send me” begs to differ.
Your source said:
Quote And lastly, man is not considered in the Scriptures to have been made in the image of angels. Again, how does he know? Couldn't God have said to Jesus, “Let's make some heavenly creatures in our image.”? And then later, said, “Let's make some earthly creatures (man) in our image.”? Is that impossible?
Your source said:
Quote The old testament does not muddle such important concepts. Yet, it seems to have muddled the trinity concept, because I can't find a verse anywhere in the Bible that says God is three persons in one godhead, or even alludes to it.
You said:
Quote We were not made in the image of angels Mike. We are made in the image of God ALONE. So try another explanation for the plural pronouns. I'm not the one who said “angels”. That was your source. My understanding is crystal clear that Jehovah was talking to the Word at the time. And where do you find the word “ALONE” in the Scriptures?
Quote (Ed J @ April 29 2010,18:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,09:51) JA Quote (JustAskin @ April 29 2010,16:00)
The God of Heaven and all creation and the God and Father of Jesus Christ has NO NAME (according to WJ) because we don't know how to pronounce it and YHVH (Jehovah, YAHVEH, “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” (Thanks EDJ) is only a title. The title, oops!, Name, that God Himself said “This is MY NAME from everlasting to everlasting” AND “It isn't important”!! This means that It is Jesus that we should be WORSHIPPING….
You still evade the question and the point. Why didn’t Jesus speak his name or the Apostles for that matter? So you can like all others claim that his name is Yahveh, YHWH, Jehovah or whatever and it still doesn’t take away from the fact that we do not know the exact pronunciation of his name, does it?WJ
Hi WJ,Speak for yourself 'big boy', you don't qualify to speak for me; and me is part of “WE” 'you' speak of !
The FACT is: “many” people who know exactly to pronounce the name (יהוה) of “God The Father”=117.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDjYes I forgot that only EDj knows the exact pronunciation of the Tetragammation. Which one is it…
JEHOVAH, YÄ-hä-vā hä, Yahweh, Havayah, Iehovah, Yehovah, Yehovih, Yǝhōwāh,Yǝhwāh, Yĕhōwih, Yĕhwih, Yǝhōwih, Yǝhwih.
Most scholars recognise Jehovah to be “grammatically impossible” Jewish Encyclopedia (Vol VII, p. 8).
Jesus didn't speak it neither did the Apostles or the Church Forefathers, but he gave it to Edj. Right!
You can believe that if you want EDj, but I am not falling for it. I will stick with the testimony of our Lord and the Apostles.
Like the Old hymn goes…
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, theres just something about that name.
It must really bother you guys that Jesus is the only name whereby men can be saved!
WJ
Hi WJ,
If you know the name of Jesus is the only one by which you can be saved why do you waste time worshipping him and not come to him?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2010,23:39) Yet, it seems to have muddled the trinity concept, because I can't find a verse anywhere in the Bible that says God is three persons in one godhead, or even alludes to it.
MikeGo ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“: Matt 28:19
These are the words of Jesus.
Better than alluding to it, this verse has a singular name for three and all having the definite article.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit has a proper name which denotes three persons
This is a Trinity no matter how you look at it.
The implication of the verse shows “Oneness” and equal authority in the three.
They are “One” right Mike?
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ April 29 2010,19:04) Just accept the defeat with grace. It won't make any difference to you anyway. You will just call out simeone else tomorrow and repeat the whole thing again. And have learnt nothing.
JAYou are the one that brought the subject over here with your misrepresentations.
I will accept that you are willing to quit. I understand why.
But, no I do not accept defeat, the debate is not over until one concedes or quits.
Is that you?
If not I will see you in the debates thread and hope you have the courage to answer my questions as I have yours.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,18:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2010,23:39) Yet, it seems to have muddled the trinity concept, because I can't find a verse anywhere in the Bible that says God is three persons in one godhead, or even alludes to it.
MikeGo ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“: Matt 28:19
These are the words of Jesus.
Better than alluding to it, this verse has a singular name for three and all having the definite article.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit has a proper name which denotes three persons
This is a Trinity no matter how you look at it.
The implication of the verse shows “Oneness” and equal authority in the three.
They are “One” right Mike?
WJ
Hi WJ,
No doubt you have supporting verses for this verse as it has dubious origins according to EusebiusWJ,
You have a problem.I can understand that it is embarassing for you to concede a defeat. Being a Mighty God holds a certain, je ne sais quoi!
It can't be easy for you st this time. You were so HOT to have a debate with me because you thought I was a push over.
You were looking to gloat over me. Ha! You fell by your own impishness. You should have been more guarded.
Blaspheming God Almighty is not a wise thing, WJ!
You want a debate, another. I already invited you. Pick a subject and create it. Or you only got the one…ah, I see, THAT was your favourite, too. Ha haa, we are alike more than I knew!!!!
I am tickled this day…!
You have been flummoxing others with that verse for years…and I squished you with it in one page, ha haa ha haaa.
WJ, please don't be so presumptious with me.
Have you not known me all this time I have been with you. If you had known me, you would also have known He who is IN me for I am in Him, also. We are one, as the Scriptures say.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,17:00) Quote (Ed J @ April 29 2010,18:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,09:51) JA Quote (JustAskin @ April 29 2010,16:00)
The God of Heaven and all creation and the God and Father of Jesus Christ has NO NAME (according to WJ) because we don't know how to pronounce it and YHVH (Jehovah, YAHVEH, “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” (Thanks EDJ) is only a title. The title, oops!, Name, that God Himself said “This is MY NAME from everlasting to everlasting” AND “It isn't important”!! This means that It is Jesus that we should be WORSHIPPING….
You still evade the question and the point. Why didn’t Jesus speak his name or the Apostles for that matter? So you can like all others claim that his name is Yahveh, YHWH, Jehovah or whatever and it still doesn’t take away from the fact that we do not know the exact pronunciation of his name, does it?WJ
Hi WJ,Speak for yourself 'big boy', you don't qualify to speak for me; and me is part of “WE” 'you' speak of !
The FACT is: “many” people who know exactly to pronounce the name (יהוה) of “God The Father”=117.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDjYes I forgot that only EDj knows the exact pronunciation of the Tetragammation. Which one is it…
JEHOVAH, YÄ-hä-vā hä, Yahweh, Havayah, Iehovah, Yehovah, Yehovih, Yǝhōwāh,Yǝhwāh, Yĕhōwih, Yĕhwih, Yǝhōwih, Yǝhwih.
Most scholars recognise Jehovah to be “grammatically impossible” Jewish Encyclopedia (Vol VII, p. 8).
Jesus didn't speak it neither did the Apostles or the Church Forefathers, but he gave it to Edj. Right!
You can believe that if you want EDj, but I am not falling for it. I will stick with the testimony of our Lord and the Apostles.
Like the Old hymn goes…
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, theres just something about that name.
It must really bother you guys that Jesus is the only name whereby men can be saved!
WJ
Hi WJ,I PM'nd you once before telling you how to avoid this mistake!
The ‘UNAUTHENTIC’ name!
Paul’s Greek-written manuscripts (fulfills the prophesy of Isaiah 53:12) having transcribed the
Hebrew name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă into Greek as [Ιησους] Ē-Ā-Soos. Note the similarity in pronunciation
and Theomatic values for both Ē-Ā-Soos=74 and Jesus=74. While Theomatics(Gematria) keeps
mathematical connections in English, it tells nothing of GOD’s name [יה] YÄ being linguistically
distanced further and further from His Word by re-transcribing a previous translation. Specifically,
instead of transcribing the authentic Hebrew Name (יהשוע) YÄ-shü-ă, the King James linguistics
instead transcribed the Greek name for Jesus (Ιησους); which is UNAUTHENTIC because
it is a “translation of a translation”. [יהשוע] translates into directly “English” as [Joshua=74] YÄ-shoe-ă=74.Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name is not vocalized in
the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of “GOD the Father”=117.
[יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)[יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh
(Phil. 2:9,11: Wherefore [Holy Spirit] has highly exalted [Jesus] giving Him a name which
is above every name, to the glory of [GOD The Father=117].) Neither is there salvation in
any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must be
saved. (Acts 4:12) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă means:
“YÄ is Savior”. The Name of [GOD=26] is [“יהוה”=26] spoken as [YÄ=26]; and “YÄ-hä-vā”!“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is Savior to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgNick,
Do you have anything useful to post.Your one liners are getting tedious…
Are you playing it 'Safe' by keeping out of things – sitting ont he side lines – it is certainly a 'Safe' place to be – get off the fence and grub down – this is a Forum – A lace where One an aire one's views – who are you to sit in judgement when you not even a player?
WJ and I will back off when we are ready – If we are in contention with the frum rules then say so – please – but until then – back off!!
Did Jesus hold off from exposing the Jews, the Pharasees, the Sadducees, the false gods, What did he call them? far worse things that we can say in this forum?What would you have said to Chrsit when he overturned the money changer's tables – ooh, Jesus, tutu tut, that was naughty – are you throwing a wobbly? Or go as far as to BLIND Saul/Paul to get him to understand that what he was doing was wrong – or God kill those two who lied to the Holy Spirit.
WJ and I will come to an understanding soon – in our own time frame.
Nick, I have never come up against you in this forum – be happy for that!
Quote (JustAskin @ April 30 2010,03:12) WJ,
You have a problem.I can understand that it is embarassing for you to concede a defeat. Being a Mighty God holds a certain, je ne sais quoi!
JALet me make this abundantly clear to you. I have not conceded but you have quit!
You cannot claim victory and then just quit because you think you are right.
A debate ends when one party concedes or quits and that must be you!
Is that right? Do you give up JA?
You talk about not being a pushover but it seems that is what you are?
Are you quiting JA?
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ April 30 2010,04:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,17:00) Quote (Ed J @ April 29 2010,18:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,09:51) JA Quote (JustAskin @ April 29 2010,16:00)
The God of Heaven and all creation and the God and Father of Jesus Christ has NO NAME (according to WJ) because we don't know how to pronounce it and YHVH (Jehovah, YAHVEH, “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” (Thanks EDJ) is only a title. The title, oops!, Name, that God Himself said “This is MY NAME from everlasting to everlasting” AND “It isn't important”!! This means that It is Jesus that we should be WORSHIPPING….
You still evade the question and the point. Why didn’t Jesus speak his name or the Apostles for that matter? So you can like all others claim that his name is Yahveh, YHWH, Jehovah or whatever and it still doesn’t take away from the fact that we do not know the exact pronunciation of his name, does it?WJ
Hi WJ,Speak for yourself 'big boy', you don't qualify to speak for me; and me is part of “WE” 'you' speak of !
The FACT is: “many” people who know exactly to pronounce the name (יהוה) of “God The Father”=117.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDjYes I forgot that only EDj knows the exact pronunciation of the Tetragammation. Which one is it…
JEHOVAH, YÄ-hä-vā hä, Yahweh, Havayah, Iehovah, Yehovah, Yehovih, Yǝhōwāh,Yǝhwāh, Yĕhōwih, Yĕhwih, Yǝhōwih, Yǝhwih.
Most scholars recognise Jehovah to be “grammatically impossible” Jewish Encyclopedia (Vol VII, p. 8).
Jesus didn't speak it neither did the Apostles or the Church Forefathers, but he gave it to Edj. Right!
You can believe that if you want EDj, but I am not falling for it. I will stick with the testimony of our Lord and the Apostles.
Like the Old hymn goes…
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, theres just something about that name.
It must really bother you guys that Jesus is the only name whereby men can be saved!
WJ
Hi WJ,I PM'nd you once before telling you how to avoid this mistake!
The ‘UNAUTHENTIC’ name!
Paul’s Greek-written manuscripts (fulfills the prophesy of Isaiah 53:12) having transcribed the
Hebrew name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă into Greek as [Ιησους] Ē-Ā-Soos. Note the similarity in pronunciation
and Theomatic values for both Ē-Ā-Soos=74 and Jesus=74. While Theomatics(Gematria) keeps
mathematical connections in English, it tells nothing of GOD’s name [יה] YÄ being linguistically
distanced further and further from His Word by re-transcribing a previous translation. Specifically,
instead of transcribing the authentic Hebrew Name (יהשוע) YÄ-shü-ă, the King James linguistics
instead transcribed the Greek name for Jesus (Ιησους); which is UNAUTHENTIC because
it is a “translation of a translation”. [יהשוע] translates into directly “English” as [Joshua=74] YÄ-shoe-ă=74.Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name is not vocalized in
the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of “GOD the Father”=117.
[יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)[יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh
(Phil. 2:9,11: Wherefore [Holy Spirit] has highly exalted [Jesus] giving Him a name which
is above every name, to the glory of [GOD The Father=117].) Neither is there salvation in
any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must be
saved. (Acts 4:12) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă means:
“YÄ is Savior”. The Name of [GOD=26] is [“יהוה”=26] spoken as [YÄ=26]; and “YÄ-hä-vā”!“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is Savior to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDjNot true. The Greek kurios for Lord was the Tetragammation translated in the LXX.
The Hebrew name for the Tetragammation was lost Ed.
Get over it!
Why do you insist that you are right when Jesus nor the Apostles or church Fathers spoke the name in their writings?
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ April 30 2010,04:27) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă means: “YÄ is Savior”.
In essence?WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2010,03:21) Hi JA,
How old are you??
Raise your sights above carnal warfare.
NHI was going to ask him the same question. He doesn't want to debate scriptures, he would rather argue and patronize and attack the person.
WJ
WJ,
You are in one of them things that swallows you up.
You are waste deep in it.
The more you struggle, the deeper you sink, the more you protest about your defeat, the more you make yourself sink.
Stop struggling, that's the secret!
Lay flat, and Crawl!
That's the secret.
Nick, do you know what an Oxymoron is?
Your last post to me here is an example, in case you didn't know.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 30 2010,19:20) WJ, You are in one of them things that swallows you up.
You are waste deep in it.
The more you struggle, the deeper you sink, the more you protest about your defeat, the more you make yourself sink.
Stop struggling, that's the secret!
Lay flat, and Crawl!
That's the secret.
JAJust as I thought. No answer, just more diatribe!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,03:06) Quote (Ed J @ April 30 2010,04:27) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă means: “YÄ is Savior”.
In essence?WJ
Hi WJ,This should help you understand better…
Essence: ultimate nature of a thing,
the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in it's proper class or identity.“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע].
“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is Savior to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)Isaiah 43:11 I, even ;
and beside me there is no savior. (Eph.5:14)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 30 2010,19:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,03:06) Quote (Ed J @ April 30 2010,04:27) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă means: “YÄ is Savior”.
In essence?WJ
Hi WJ,This should help you understand better…
Essence: ultimate nature of a thing,
the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in it's proper class or identity.“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע].
“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is Savior to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)Isaiah 43:11 I, even ;
and beside me there is no savior. (Eph.5:14)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Thanks!
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