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Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 12 2010,14:07) Echad is not used as the numeber one. IT means unity or in one. Not the number. its value is not even one. English and Hebrew are very different languages and are very complicated to compare. it can imply a unity in diversity. Several times in the bible, the contruction of the tabernacle were so they may be one echad. ezekial spoke of two sticks the fragmented israel to make one echad.
what you say doesnt make any sense.
Hi Dennison,To whom do you refer? And just spit it out, man. What are you saying?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2010,14:31) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 12 2010,14:07) Echad is not used as the numeber one. IT means unity or in one. Not the number. its value is not even one. English and Hebrew are very different languages and are very complicated to compare. it can imply a unity in diversity. Several times in the bible, the contruction of the tabernacle were so they may be one echad. ezekial spoke of two sticks the fragmented israel to make one echad.
what you say doesnt make any sense.
Hi Dennison,To whom do you refer? And just spit it out, man. What are you saying?
peace and love,
mike
lol sorry i meant to qoute the very frist qoute. the main topic that martion wrote.=)
if i spit i might get you wet. disgusting no?
The anti-trinitarians here argue that the word “ONE LORD” (Deut. 6:4) argues that Christ cannot be God. WJ and I have tried to show you time and time again that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” and often refers to a plural one. We have given the example of Moses saying that the husband and his wife shall be “one flesh.”
But some of you guys have explained this statement away saying that it does not mean one flesh but “one in purpose.” A scripture came to me that blows away your theory that “one flesh” means “one in purpose
You have forgotten to bring up I Corinthians 3:8a. “Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one …” I Corinthians 3:6 states, “I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase”
Is this mean one in person? Is this a plural one? Or is this one in purpose?
Ezra 3:1b. “…. the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem.” Were they one man? NO. But they were one in purpose.
[/CODE]Hi Barley,
Can you please explain 1 Corint 3:5-8, showing which 'one' is Echad and which 'one' is Elohyim.
Please, thanks.Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,09:32) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,06:00) Martian said: Quote If you read my answers you will see conclusively that echad is not plural in any way. TO ALL: If there is so much as one statement in the Bible that contradicts Martian, then we can send him home in his spaceship.
Well there is:
From the “One Flesh” thread:
The anti-trinitarians here argue that the word “ONE LORD” (Deut. 6:4) argues that Christ cannot be God. WJ and I have tried to show you time and time again that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” and often refers to a plural one. We have given the example of Moses saying that the husband and his wife shall be “one flesh.”
But some of you guys have explained this statement away saying that it does not mean one flesh but “one in purpose.” A scripture came to me that blows away your theory that “one flesh” means “one in purpose.”
8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. Leviticus 18:8
Read it and weep!
The man and his wife are one FLESH. Now take a closer look at Deuteronomy 6:4:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (plural), the LORD is one!
The word “God” is plural. It says that the plural God is one LORD. Get with God's word guys!
Love you Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
But it's time to send you off
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
Your argument is based on Elohyim being plural. You assume from ignorance that plural Elohyim means more then one. You do not understand the Hebrew language. As I have posted before Plurals are used in Hebrew to indicate both number and majesty. The same Hebrew word is used plural trees as is used for one majestic tree. It is a plural of majesty. In the case of Elohyim it is used to point out the majesty of the one true God. He is above other Gods in power and majesty.
Echad is used in the shima because it is the numeral one. It can be used to say one person or one bunch of grapes, but when referring to a group Echad is still singular.
Echad is singular and Elohyim is singular. Where can you get any plural indication from it other then your own imagination or Catholic dogma that you have not yet been set free of.
Hello Martian,Please help me out with the word Elohim. Too bad we can't insert Hebrew to make it clearer.
So far in my studies of Hebrew nouns (animatedhebrew.com) I haven't come across a category called “majestic plurals”. This is where I need help. Where is this taught?
Normally, in Hebrew the root and the ending must agree with gender. Thus the word Elohim is an anomaly because you have a masculine plural ending attached to a feminine root.
The root of the word is EL (El) which is a masculine noun. However, you will see the added “H” now making the base ELH (Eloh) meaning God (noun, feminnine). The suffix of YM “im” is masculine plural (feminine plural OT). All by grammar definition with no interpretations. Therefore Eloh (noun, fem) + im (suffix, masc, plural) = Elohim and should be defined as “God, Supreme Being (noun, feminine and masculine, plural).
But by what I gather from your Majestic Plural the definition of the word should be: “God, Supreme Being (noun, fem & masc, singular).
I see that there are two anomalies in the word: 1-It is comprised of a female base and male plural ending 2- It is a plural word (normally) EXCEPT when addressing God, the Supreme Being, then it is considered SINGULAR….
Am I correct so far?
Thanks for helping,
David
Quote (JustAskin @ June 28 2010,14:54) Hi Barley, Can you please explain 1 Corint 3:5-8, showing which 'one' is Echad and which 'one' is Elohyim.
Please, thanks.
Hello JA,Funny!
Since those two words are Hebrew. It would be nice to have a Hebrew NT attached to my research source.
David
Quote (barley @ June 28 2010,14:31) The anti-trinitarians here argue that the word “ONE LORD” (Deut. 6:4) argues that Christ cannot be God. WJ and I have tried to show you time and time again that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” and often refers to a plural one. We have given the example of Moses saying that the husband and his wife shall be “one flesh.” But some of you guys have explained this statement away saying that it does not mean one flesh but “one in purpose.” A scripture came to me that blows away your theory that “one flesh” means “one in purpose
You have forgotten to bring up I Corinthians 3:8a. “Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one …” I Corinthians 3:6 states, “I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase”
Is this mean one in person? Is this a plural one? Or is this one in purpose?
Ezra 3:1b. “…. the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem.” Were they one man? NO. But they were one in purpose.
[/CODE]
Hello Barley,Looking at the first time that 'Echad was used is in Gen 1:5 referring to ONE DAY. It explains what one day essentially is: Evening and Morning. No explanation of purpose…..
To have ONE GOD what is your explanation? Gen 1:27.
David
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2010,19:04) Quote (Lightenup @ June 12 2010,06:55) Mike, you wrote:
Quote This is what you trinitarians and “binarians” do to those of us for whom “there is but one God, the Father”. Can you define 'binarians' for us? Please provide your reference, thanks!
Hi Kathi,You told me one time that you worship a “binity”. I extrapolated “binarian”. It was a funny (I thought) way of saying “trinitarians and Kathi”.
Sorry if I offended. Don't you have a comment on the substance of my post?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,I looked it up and their Binity was Father and Son.
What if the Binity consists of Father and Holy Spirit? What would it be called?
David
Quote (JustAskin @ May 05 2010,17:04) Please Nick, In your own words.
Very simple for me – I have a desire to learn in small morsel portions.
Hi JA,Small portions: Eloh = God (noun, fem) + im (ending, masc, plural) = Elohim
Masculine (Elohim) = YHVH
Feminine (Elohim) = Holy SpiritElohim = God Most High, Supreme Being
David
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ April 15 2010,18:55) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,11:33) Thinker –
Every time in the verses I quoted the person speaking said it was God speaking. Was it literally God or did the words come out of the mouth and throat of the prophet. So the messenger prophesied. What's the big deal?Gen three the term messenger means “one who walks for another.” Who is this “another”? Is it God? If it is God then who was the messenger. Do you have two Gods?
Martian,
Exactly. The person said it was God speaking. But the Messenger did not say that it was God speaking. The Messenger did not say, “God says, 'I am the God of Bethel.' ”The Messenger said, “I am the God of Bethel.”
The angel Gabriel said to Mary, “The power of the Most High will overshadow you.” But the Messenger said to Sarah, “I will multiply your seed.”
At the end of that narrative Moses identified the Messenger as Jehovah (Genesis 16:7-13).
thinker
Hello thinker,That's super that YHVH was with Abraham and Sarah.
Is YHVH God? If so, I thought that no man has “seen” God.Something to think about, no?
David
Quote (martian @ April 14 2010,10:50) Oh the same stuff over and over again. It makes no difference how much proof is posted, WJ and Thinker (like Moonies and Mormons) will keep on smiling and regurgitating their nonsense.
It is clear that Matthes was originally written in Hebrew. For this I give you the testimony of Church Fathers.Papias (150-170 CE) – Matthew composed the words in the Hebrew dialect, and each translated as he was able.
Ireneus (170 CE) – Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.
Origen (210 CE) – The first [Gospel] is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an apoltle of Jesus Christ who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew.
Eusebius (315 CE) – Matthew also, having first proclaimed the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going also to the other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings.
Epiphanius (370 CE) – They [The Nazarenes] have the Gospel according to Matthew quite complete in Hebrew, for this Gospel is certainly still preserved among them as it was first written, in Hebrew letters.
Jerome ( 382 CE) – Matthew, who is also Levi, and from a tax collectore came to be an Apostle first of all evangelists composed a Gospel of Christ in Judea in the Hebrew language and letters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed, who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian cityof Borea to copy it. In which is to be remarked that, wherever the evangelist…. makes use of the testimonies of the Old Scripture, he does not follow the authority of the seventy translators, but that of the Hebrew
Isho'dad (850 CE) – His [Matthew's] book was in existence in Caesarea of Palestine, and everyone acknowledges that he wrote it with his hands in Hebrew.There are also many idioms that do not make sense in English or Greek but are completely clear if translated back to Hebrew.
If the great commission is translated back in Hebrew it would read like this.
Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is like Him and of the special breath which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of life.
The “Great Commission” is neither a Trinitarian proof text nor even a complete water baptism verse. Water baptism is only a shadow of the deeper emersion we are to have in the Character of God as shown through His son Jesus.
Hello Martian,That is great that Matthew was written in Hebrew!
Do you know a site where this is the source document? My site has Greek…for NT and Hebrew OT.
You are so right about the differences in Hebrew and Greek.
David
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,09:48) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,09:44) Quote (thethinker @ April 10 2010,09:57) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,05:13) The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament says,
This word [elohim], which is generally viewed as the plural of eloah [Strong's #433], is found far more frequently in Scripture than either el or eloah for the true God. The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular. [4]
The New International Version Study Bible tells us,
“God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” [5]
Mercer Dictionary of the Bible states,
“The plural Elohim is used frequently, a phenomenon sometimes called the majestic plural. Although the form is plural the one referred to or who is speaking is singular.” [6]
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states,
“The Divine name (’Elohim) most frequently used in the Old Testament, a plural form of Eloah, which appears only in poetical books (34 of the 57 times in Job alone). The form Elohim, when used of the God of Israel, is a plural of majesty, signifying the one God who embodies in Himself all the qualities of divinity, and is almost always accompanied by singular verbs and adjectives.” [7]
HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary says,
“Elohim is one of the three common generic names for God in the OT, occuring almost 2600 times. The term is a plural, probably of El or Eloah, hebrew words for “god”, and on occassions means “gods” (e.g. Exod. 20:3). Most often it is a plural of majesty for israel’s “God” (e.g. , Gen. 1:1) and thus is translated in the singular.” [8]
Martian,I am well aware of these sources which promote the “plural of majesty” theory. Did you notice that the sources give no examples from the scripture where a human king spoke in such a manner? God accomadated Himself to the culture and the speech which the people used. So we must find an example where human kings used the so called “plural of majesty.”
We are not obliged to consider any theory that is without examples from scripture.
“Some have seen the solution of the difficulty to lie in calling this the majestic plural, such as sovereigns are wont to employ edicts. This type of plural, cannot be demonstrated as used in the scriptures….” Genesis, vol. 1, p. 86-87, H.C. Leupold D.D.
The majestic plural cannot be shown from the scriptures. Therefore, it is just a theory that cannot be proven.
Then there is the problem with Jehovah calling His Messenger “Jehovah your God.” I duplicate a post from earlier today:
In Exodus 3 the Messenger of Jehovah appeared to Moses in the burning bush and identified Himself as the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Then in verse 14 the Messenger says OF HIMSELF, “I am that I am.”
In Exodus 23:20-25 Jehovah said that He will send His Messenger to bring the people into the land that He has prepared for them. Then in verse 25 Jehovah Himself calls His Messenger by the name “Jehovah.” He said,
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Jehovah refers to His Messenger by the same name saying, “serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you.” Then He switches to the first person and says, “And I will take away your sickness.”Note these three points:
1. Jehovah said that His Messenger has His name. (vs. 21)
2. The people shall not serve false gods but shall serve Jehovah's Messenger (vs.24-25).
3. Note the first and third persons “HE will bless you” and, “I will heal you.” Then note that Jehovah the first person called the third person, “Jehovah your God.”
Jehovah is indeed a plural unity.
thinker
A Hebrew plural such as Elohim has only two possibilities.
Either it is really a plural of Gods or it is a plural of majesty. There is no other possibility. The
Hebrew language allows no other possibility.
martianSo you say with your bias, but you have no Biblical proof!
We do have evidence in the Hebrew scriptures of a plural God as Jack has pointed out, and our Lord Jesus speaks of the Trinity, whether you see it that way or not!
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of “the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“: (All having the definite article) Matt 28:19
WJ
Hello WJ,OK you have my interest. Where in the Hebrew scriptures is Jesus directly referred to as God? (“Directly” meaning that it is stated without someone inferring what is meant.
Another simple question: Is Jesus the son of God?
David
Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,11:32) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,06:00) Martian said: Quote If you read my answers you will see conclusively that echad is not plural in any way. TO ALL: If there is so much as one statement in the Bible that contradicts Martian, then we can send him home in his spaceship.
Well there is:
From the “One Flesh” thread:
The anti-trinitarians here argue that the word “ONE LORD” (Deut. 6:4) argues that Christ cannot be God. WJ and I have tried to show you time and time again that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” and often refers to a plural one. We have given the example of Moses saying that the husband and his wife shall be “one flesh.”
But some of you guys have explained this statement away saying that it does not mean one flesh but “one in purpose.” A scripture came to me that blows away your theory that “one flesh” means “one in purpose.”
8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. Leviticus 18:8
Read it and weep!
The man and his wife are one FLESH. Now take a closer look at Deuteronomy 6:4:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (plural), the LORD is one!
The word “God” is plural. It says that the plural God is one LORD. Get with God's word guys!
Love you Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
But it's time to send you off
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
For the poorly educated among us. (That's you Thinker)
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim ends with the masculine plural suffix “-ִים” From this we might conclude that Elohim signifies a numerical plural (i.e. denoting multiplicity) and translate it accordingly as gods. But before we determine whether the world was created by a single God or multiple gods, we must consider whether Elohim is really a numerical plural.
In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:
1.It receives a plural suffix;
2.It receives a plural verb;
3.It receives a plural adjective.
The first characteristic, the plural suffix, is familiar to the English speaker. In English, most nouns have the plural suffix “s” or “es”. For example, dog is the singular while dogs is the plural. Hebrew adds another dimension by matching adjectives and verbs to the noun. In Hebrew, a plural noun gets a plural verb and plural adjective. In contrast, English verbs and adjectives do not change to match the noun. For example, in English:
Singular: The big dog guarded.
Plural: The big dogs guarded.
But in Hebrew:
Singular: The big (sg) dog (he) guarded. שָׁמַר הַכֶּלֶב הַגָּדוֹל
Plural: The big (pl) dogs (they) guarded. שָׁמְרוּ הַכְּלָבִים הַגְּדוֹלִיםSo the first thing we must check about Elohim is whether it gets a plural adjective and plural verb, because this will tell us whether or not it is a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. In the very first verse of the Torah we read בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים meaning “Elohim (he) created”. Were Elohim a numerical plural, the verse would have to say בָּרְאוּ אֱלֹהִים “Elohim (they) created”. Indeed, the word Elohim appears in its plural form over 2000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in virtually every instance it has a singular verb. It is always “And Elohim (he) spoke to Moses ” and never “And Elohim (they) spoke to Moses “. The same thing can be found with the adjective. The adjective for Elohim is singular, not plural. Thus we find אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיק “righteous (sg) Elohim” (Ps 7:10) and not אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיקִים “righteous (pl) Elohim”.
So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals. The meaning of the plural suffix in the majestic plural is not that there is more than one of the noun, but that the noun is “great, absolute, or majestic”. For example, אָדוֹן means “master” while אֲדוֹנִים (Isa 19:4; Mal 1:6) with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, lord”. Thus we read, “I will imprison the Egyptians in the hand of a harsh lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them” (Isa 19:4). In this verse the fierce king that will enslave Egypt is described as an ?ֲדֹנִים קָשֶׁה “a harsh (sg) lord (pl)”. In this verse, the plural suffix attached to the word ?ֲדֹנִים does not make it a numerical plural (“masters”) but instead magnifies the meaning (“great master, lord”). Because אֲדֹנִים is a majestic plural it receives the singular adjective קָשֶׁה (harsh) and not the plural adjective קָשִׁים that would be required for a numerical plural. The word בַּעַל also means “master” while בְּעָלִים with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, owner”. For example, in Exodus 21 the owner of the “goring ox” is repeatedly referred to as the בְּעָלִים “owner”. The word בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix even though the ox is only owned by one person. In this case, the plural suffix magnifies the noun imbuing it with a connotation of “absolute owner, complete master”. Because בְּעָלִים “owner” is a majestic plural it gets a singular verb. Thus we read concerning the negligent owner whose ox has killed, “the ox shall be stoned and the owner (he) will be put to death” (Ex 21:29). The verb ?וּמָת meaning “he will be put to death” is in the singular even though the word for “owner” בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix.
The common characteristic of majestic plurals is that they have the plural suffix while denoting singular objects and as a result they receive singular adjectives and singular verbs. Elohim is quite simply an example of the majestic plural and means “great God”.
It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. For example, the second commandment forbids us to worship אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים “other (pl) gods”. In this phrase, not only does Elohim have the plural suffix, but it receives a plural adjective אֲחֵרִים other (pl). This tells us that in the second commandment Elohim is used not as an majestic plural but as a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. The prohibition is not against a specific “other (sg) god” but against any “other (pl) gods”. Elohim is used numerous times throughout the Tanach to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods. So we see that when the Tanach speaks about YHWH it uses Elohim as the majestic plural meaning “great God” but when it speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning “gods”. In both instances the accompanying verbs and adjectives reveal to us which meaning is intended.
Does the majestic plural form of Elohim implies that there is anything multiple about God? To help clarify this it is worth looking at the few instances where the majestic plural form of Elohim is used to refer to someone other than YHWH. The clearest example of this is in Exodus 7:1. In this passage YHWH tells Moses that he will make him an Elohim to Pharaoh: “Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet” (Exodus 7:1). Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh.
On rare occasions Elohim is used as majestic plural even when referring to pagan gods. For example, “And they bowed down to Ashtoret the Elohim of the Sidonians, to Kemosh the Elohim of Moab, and to Milkom the Elohim of the children of Amon.” (1Ki 11:33). Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a “great God”. On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them. The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them.
Clearly the word Elohim, when it refers to YHWH, is an majestic plural which is numerically singular, having a singular verb and a singular adjective. This majestic plural is simply a grammatical form that denotes greatness without any implication that the object itself is a plurality or multiplicity. If we maintain that Elohim implies multiplicity then we must concede that Moses was also a multiplicity along with Kemosh the pagan deity of the Moabites and Milkom the pagan deity of the Amonites.
That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Moses declares to the children of Israel, “YHWH is our Elohim, YHWH is one” (Dt 6:4). Were YHWH a multiplicity of gods or personalities what would be the point of saying that He is “one”? It is worth noting that it does not say YHWH is one of something (one god, one personality). He is just simply “one”, in every respect of the word. Similarly, the prophet Zechariah tells us about the universal worship of YHWH at the end of days, “And YHWH will be king over the entire earth; at that time YHWH will be one and his name will be one” (Zech 14:9). Zechariah is saying that today people multiply YHWH but at the end-time all mankind will know that YHWH is a single individual deity with one single name. We are taught in the book of Isaiah that YHWH is the one and only, “I am YHWH and besides me there is no savior” (Isa 43:11). Elsewhere in Isaiah, YHWH poses the rhetorical question, “Is there an Eloha (God) besides me?” (Isa 44:8). Similarly we read in the Psalms, “Who is an Eloha (God) besides YHWH and who is a rock (=savior) besides our Elohim?” (Ps 18:32). In these verses the word for “God” is Eloha ?ֱלוֹהַּ, the singular form of Elohim. These passages are saying that YHWH is an Eloha and besides Him there is no other Eloha. Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity. This and the fact that the verbs and adjectives connected with Elohim are always singular confirm our conclusion that Elohim is an majestic plural denoting a singular individual but with a connotation of greatness.
Martian,Loved your explanation of Elohim here.
Now, adding all of your knowledge with this:
First conversation by Elohim is Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let US……….
Plural pronoun, us.
Read the next verse, too.
….man was created in Elohim's image, male and female.
Plain and simple isn't it? God speaking and recorded in the Bible. He is speaking that His essence consists of male and female.
This agrees with what you are explaining.
ONE** ('Echad = unity) God (Elohim = noun, m/f, SING**)
The adjective agreeing with the noun (both singular).
But notice within the ONE GOD the two essences, male and female. Agreement in the Bible with YHVH (male essence) and Holy Spirit (noun, feminine)(female essence)being Elohim (ONE GOD).Great job!
David
Quote (davidbfun @ July 22 2010,08:48) Quote (martian @ April 14 2010,10:50) Oh the same stuff over and over again. It makes no difference how much proof is posted, WJ and Thinker (like Moonies and Mormons) will keep on smiling and regurgitating their nonsense.
It is clear that Matthes was originally written in Hebrew. For this I give you the testimony of Church Fathers.Papias (150-170 CE) – Matthew composed the words in the Hebrew dialect, and each translated as he was able.
Ireneus (170 CE) – Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.
Origen (210 CE) – The first [Gospel] is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an apoltle of Jesus Christ who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew.
Eusebius (315 CE) – Matthew also, having first proclaimed the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going also to the other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings.
Epiphanius (370 CE) – They [The Nazarenes] have the Gospel according to Matthew quite complete in Hebrew, for this Gospel is certainly still preserved among them as it was first written, in Hebrew letters.
Jerome ( 382 CE) – Matthew, who is also Levi, and from a tax collectore came to be an Apostle first of all evangelists composed a Gospel of Christ in Judea in the Hebrew language and letters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed, who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian cityof Borea to copy it. In which is to be remarked that, wherever the evangelist…. makes use of the testimonies of the Old Scripture, he does not follow the authority of the seventy translators, but that of the Hebrew
Isho'dad (850 CE) – His [Matthew's] book was in existence in Caesarea of Palestine, and everyone acknowledges that he wrote it with his hands in Hebrew.There are also many idioms that do not make sense in English or Greek but are completely clear if translated back to Hebrew.
If the great commission is translated back in Hebrew it would read like this.
Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is like Him and of the special breath which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of life.
The “Great Commission” is neither a Trinitarian proof text nor even a complete water baptism verse. Water baptism is only a shadow of the deeper emersion we are to have in the Character of God as shown through His son Jesus.
Hello Martian,That is great that Matthew was written in Hebrew!
Do you know a site where this is the source document? My site has Greek…for NT and Hebrew OT.
You are so right about the differences in Hebrew and Greek.
David
David,
I would suggest “The Ancient Hebrew Research Center” By Jeff Benner.
You can google it. It has good info on the culture and history of the Hebrew people. Also has good word and language studies.Quote (davidbfun @ July 22 2010,09:12) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,11:32) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,06:00) Martian said: Quote If you read my answers you will see conclusively that echad is not plural in any way. TO ALL: If there is so much as one statement in the Bible that contradicts Martian, then we can send him home in his spaceship.
Well there is:
From the “One Flesh” thread:
The anti-trinitarians here argue that the word “ONE LORD” (Deut. 6:4) argues that Christ cannot be God. WJ and I have tried to show you time and time again that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” and often refers to a plural one. We have given the example of Moses saying that the husband and his wife shall be “one flesh.”
But some of you guys have explained this statement away saying that it does not mean one flesh but “one in purpose.” A scripture came to me that blows away your theory that “one flesh” means “one in purpose.”
8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. Leviticus 18:8
Read it and weep!
The man and his wife are one FLESH. Now take a closer look at Deuteronomy 6:4:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (plural), the LORD is one!
The word “God” is plural. It says that the plural God is one LORD. Get with God's word guys!
Love you Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
But it's time to send you off
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
For the poorly educated among us. (That's you Thinker)
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim ends with the masculine plural suffix “-ִים” From this we might conclude that Elohim signifies a numerical plural (i.e. denoting multiplicity) and translate it accordingly as gods. But before we determine whether the world was created by a single God or multiple gods, we must consider whether Elohim is really a numerical plural.
In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:
1.It receives a plural suffix;
2.It receives a plural verb;
3.It receives a plural adjective.
The first characteristic, the plural suffix, is familiar to the English speaker. In English, most nouns have the plural suffix “s” or “es”. For example, dog is the singular while dogs is the plural. Hebrew adds another dimension by matching adjectives and verbs to the noun. In Hebrew, a plural noun gets a plural verb and plural adjective. In contrast, English verbs and adjectives do not change to match the noun. For example, in English:
Singular: The big dog guarded.
Plural: The big dogs guarded.
But in Hebrew:
Singular: The big (sg) dog (he) guarded. שָׁמַר הַכֶּלֶב הַגָּדוֹל
Plural: The big (pl) dogs (they) guarded. שָׁמְרוּ הַכְּלָבִים הַגְּדוֹלִיםSo the first thing we must check about Elohim is whether it gets a plural adjective and plural verb, because this will tell us whether or not it is a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. In the very first verse of the Torah we read בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים meaning “Elohim (he) created”. Were Elohim a numerical plural, the verse would have to say בָּרְאוּ אֱלֹהִים “Elohim (they) created”. Indeed, the word Elohim appears in its plural form over 2000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in virtually every instance it has a singular verb. It is always “And Elohim (he) spoke to Moses ” and never “And Elohim (they) spoke to Moses “. The same thing can be found with the adjective. The adjective for Elohim is singular, not plural. Thus we find אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיק “righteous (sg) Elohim” (Ps 7:10) and not אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיקִים “righteous (pl) Elohim”.
So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals. The meaning of the plural suffix in the majestic plural is not that there is more than one of the noun, but that the noun is “great, absolute, or majestic”. For example, אָדוֹן means “master” while אֲדוֹנִים (Isa 19:4; Mal 1:6) with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, lord”. Thus we read, “I will imprison the Egyptians in the hand of a harsh lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them” (Isa 19:4). In this verse the fierce king that will enslave Egypt is described as an ?ֲדֹנִים קָשֶׁה “a harsh (sg) lord (pl)”. In this verse, the plural suffix attached to the word ?ֲדֹנִים does not make it a numerical plural (“masters”) but instead magnifies the meaning (“great master, lord”). Because אֲדֹנִים is a majestic plural it receives the singular adjective קָשֶׁה (harsh) and not the plural adjective קָשִׁים that would be required for a numerical plural. The word בַּעַל also means “master” while בְּעָלִים with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, owner”. For example, in Exodus 21 the owner of the “goring ox” is repeatedly referred to as the בְּעָלִים “owner”. The word בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix even though the ox is only owned by one person. In this case, the plural suffix magnifies the noun imbuing it with a connotation of “absolute owner, complete master”. Because בְּעָלִים “owner” is a majestic plural it gets a singular verb. Thus we read concerning the negligent owner whose ox has killed, “the ox shall be stoned and the owner (he) will be put to death” (Ex 21:
29). The verb ?וּמָת meaning “he will be put to death” is in the singular even though the word for “owner” בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix. The common characteristic of majestic plurals is that they have the plural suffix while denoting singular objects and as a result they receive singular adjectives and singular verbs. Elohim is quite simply an example of the majestic plural and means “great God”.
It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. For example, the second commandment forbids us to worship אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים “other (pl) gods”. In this phrase, not only does Elohim have the plural suffix, but it receives a plural adjective אֲחֵרִים other (pl). This tells us that in the second commandment Elohim is used not as an majestic plural but as a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. The prohibition is not against a specific “other (sg) god” but against any “other (pl) gods”. Elohim is used numerous times throughout the Tanach to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods. So we see that when the Tanach speaks about YHWH it uses Elohim as the majestic plural meaning “great God” but when it speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning “gods”. In both instances the accompanying verbs and adjectives reveal to us which meaning is intended.
Does the majestic plural form of Elohim implies that there is anything multiple about God? To help clarify this it is worth looking at the few instances where the majestic plural form of Elohim is used to refer to someone other than YHWH. The clearest example of this is in Exodus 7:1. In this passage YHWH tells Moses that he will make him an Elohim to Pharaoh: “Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet” (Exodus 7:1). Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh.
On rare occasions Elohim is used as majestic plural even when referring to pagan gods. For example, “And they bowed down to Ashtoret the Elohim of the Sidonians, to Kemosh the Elohim of Moab, and to Milkom the Elohim of the children of Amon.” (1Ki 11:33). Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a “great God”. On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them. The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them.
Clearly the word Elohim, when it refers to YHWH, is an majestic plural which is numerically singular, having a singular verb and a singular adjective. This majestic plural is simply a grammatical form that denotes greatness without any implication that the object itself is a plurality or multiplicity. If we maintain that Elohim implies multiplicity then we must concede that Moses was also a multiplicity along with Kemosh the pagan deity of the Moabites and Milkom the pagan deity of the Amonites.
That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Moses declares to the children of Israel, “YHWH is our Elohim, YHWH is one” (Dt 6:4). Were YHWH a multiplicity of gods or personalities what would be the point of saying that He is “one”? It is worth noting that it does not say YHWH is one of something (one god, one personality). He is just simply “one”, in every respect of the word. Similarly, the prophet Zechariah tells us about the universal worship of YHWH at the end of days, “And YHWH will be king over the entire earth; at that time YHWH will be one and his name will be one” (Zech 14:9). Zechariah is saying that today people multiply YHWH but at the end-time all mankind will know that YHWH is a single individual deity with one single name. We are taught in the book of Isaiah that YHWH is the one and only, “I am YHWH and besides me there is no savior” (Isa 43:11). Elsewhere in Isaiah, YHWH poses the rhetorical question, “Is there an Eloha (God) besides me?” (Isa 44:8). Similarly we read in the Psalms, “Who is an Eloha (God) besides YHWH and who is a rock (=savior) besides our Elohim?” (Ps 18:32). In these verses the word for “God” is Eloha ?ֱלוֹהַּ, the singular form of Elohim. These passages are saying that YHWH is an Eloha and besides Him there is no other Eloha. Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity. This and the fact that the verbs and adjectives connected with Elohim are always singular confirm our conclusion that Elohim is an majestic plural denoting a singular individual but with a connotation of greatness.
Martian,Loved your explanation of Elohim here.
Now, adding all of your knowledge with this:
First conversation by Elohim is Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let US……….
Plural pronoun, us.
Read the next verse, too.
….man was created in Elohim's image, male and female.
Plain and simple isn't it? God speaking and recorded in the Bible. He is speaking that His essence consists of male and female.
This agrees with what you are explaining.
ONE** ('Echad = unity) God (Elohim = noun, m/f, SING**)
The adjective agreeing with the noun (both singular).
But notice within the ONE GOD the two essences, male and female. Agreement in the Bible with YHVH (male essence) and Holy Spirit (noun, feminine)(female essence)being Elohim (ONE GOD).Great job!
David
You are partially correct. Male and Female are only part of the functions of God.
The Hebrew people explain things by their function and not their appearance.
God is described many times by the way he functioned toward man.
The primary meaning o Elohyim is the plural of majesty. It means he is God above all other Gods.Quote (martian @ July 22 2010,17:59) Quote (davidbfun @ July 22 2010,09:12) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,11:32) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,06:00) Martian said: Quote If you read my answers you will see conclusively that echad is not plural in any way. TO ALL: If there is so much as one statement in the Bible that contradicts Martian, then we can send him home in his spaceship.
Well there is:
From the “One Flesh” thread:
The anti-trinitarians here argue that the word “ONE LORD” (Deut. 6:4) argues that Christ cannot be God. WJ and I have tried to show you time and time again that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” and often refers to a plural one. We have given the example of Moses saying that the husband and his wife shall be “one flesh.”
But some of you guys have explained this statement away saying that it does not mean one flesh but “one in purpose.” A scripture came to me that blows away your theory that “one flesh” means “one in purpose.”
8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. Leviticus 18:8
Read it and weep!
The man and his wife are one FLESH. Now take a closer look at Deuteronomy 6:4:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (plural), the LORD is one!
The word “God” is plural. It says that the plural God is one LORD. Get with God's word guys!
Love you Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
But it's time to send you off
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
For the poorly educated among us. (That's you Thinker)
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim ends with the masculine plural suffix “-ִים” From this we might conclude that Elohim signifies a numerical plural (i.e. denoting multiplicity) and translate it accordingly as gods. But before we determine whether the world was created by a single God or multiple gods, we must consider whether Elohim is really a numerical plural.
In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:
1.It receives a plural suffix;
2.It receives a plural verb;
3.It receives a plural adjective.
The first characteristic, the plural suffix, is familiar to the English speaker. In English, most nouns have the plural suffix “s” or “es”. For example, dog is the singular while dogs is the plural. Hebrew adds another dimension by matching adjectives and verbs to the noun. In Hebrew, a plural noun gets a plural verb and plural adjective. In contrast, English verbs and adjectives do not change to match the noun. For example, in English:
Singular: The big dog guarded.
Plural: The big dogs guarded.
But in Hebrew:
Singular: The big (sg) dog (he) guarded. שָׁמַר הַכֶּלֶב הַגָּדוֹל
Plural: The big (pl) dogs (they) guarded. שָׁמְרוּ הַכְּלָבִים הַגְּדוֹלִיםSo the first thing we must check about Elohim is whether it gets a plural adjective and plural verb, because this will tell us whether or not it is a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. In the very first verse of the Torah we read בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים meaning “Elohim (he) created”. Were Elohim a numerical plural, the verse would have to say בָּרְאוּ אֱלֹהִים “Elohim (they) created”. Indeed, the word Elohim appears in its plural form over 2000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in virtually every instance it has a singular verb. It is always “And Elohim (he) spoke to Moses ” and never “And Elohim (they) spoke to Moses “. The same thing can be found with the adjective. The adjective for Elohim is singular, not plural. Thus we find אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיק “righteous (sg) Elohim” (Ps 7:10) and not אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיקִים “righteous (pl) Elohim”.
So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals. The meaning of the plural suffix in the majestic plural is not that there is more than one of the noun, but that the noun is “great, absolute, or majestic”. For example, אָדוֹן means “master” while אֲדוֹנִים (Isa 19:4; Mal 1:6) with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, lord”. Thus we read, “I will imprison the Egyptians in the hand of a harsh lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them” (Isa 19:4). In this verse the fierce king that will enslave Egypt is described as an ?ֲדֹנִים קָשֶׁה “a harsh (sg) lord (pl)”. In this verse, the plural suffix attached to the word ?ֲדֹנִים does not make it a numerical plural (“masters”) but instead magnifies the meaning (“great master, lord”). Because אֲדֹנִים is a majestic plural it receives the singular adjective קָשֶׁה (harsh) and not the plural adjective קָשִׁים that would be required for a numerical plural. The word בַּעַל also means “master” while בְּעָלִים with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, owner”. For example, in Exodus 21 the owner of the “goring ox” is repeatedly referred to as the בְּעָלִים “owner”. The word בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix even though the ox is only owned by one person. In this case, the plural suffix magnifies the noun imbuing it with a connotation of “absolute owner, complete master”. Because בְּעָ
לִים “owner” is a majestic plural it gets a singular verb. Thus we read concerning the negligent owner whose ox has killed, “the ox shall be stoned and the owner (he) will be put to death” (Ex 21:29). The verb ?וּמָת meaning “he will be put to death” is in the singular even though the word for “owner” בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix. The common characteristic of majestic plurals is that they have the plural suffix while denoting singular objects and as a result they receive singular adjectives and singular verbs. Elohim is quite simply an example of the majestic plural and means “great God”.
It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. For example, the second commandment forbids us to worship אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים “other (pl) gods”. In this phrase, not only does Elohim have the plural suffix, but it receives a plural adjective אֲחֵרִים other (pl). This tells us that in the second commandment Elohim is used not as an majestic plural but as a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. The prohibition is not against a specific “other (sg) god” but against any “other (pl) gods”. Elohim is used numerous times throughout the Tanach to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods. So we see that when the Tanach speaks about YHWH it uses Elohim as the majestic plural meaning “great God” but when it speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning “gods”. In both instances the accompanying verbs and adjectives reveal to us which meaning is intended.
Does the majestic plural form of Elohim implies that there is anything multiple about God? To help clarify this it is worth looking at the few instances where the majestic plural form of Elohim is used to refer to someone other than YHWH. The clearest example of this is in Exodus 7:1. In this passage YHWH tells Moses that he will make him an Elohim to Pharaoh: “Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet” (Exodus 7:1). Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh.
On rare occasions Elohim is used as majestic plural even when referring to pagan gods. For example, “And they bowed down to Ashtoret the Elohim of the Sidonians, to Kemosh the Elohim of Moab, and to Milkom the Elohim of the children of Amon.” (1Ki 11:33). Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a “great God”. On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them. The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them.
Clearly the word Elohim, when it refers to YHWH, is an majestic plural which is numerically singular, having a singular verb and a singular adjective. This majestic plural is simply a grammatical form that denotes greatness without any implication that the object itself is a plurality or multiplicity. If we maintain that Elohim implies multiplicity then we must concede that Moses was also a multiplicity along with Kemosh the pagan deity of the Moabites and Milkom the pagan deity of the Amonites.
That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Moses declares to the children of Israel, “YHWH is our Elohim, YHWH is one” (Dt 6:4). Were YHWH a multiplicity of gods or personalities what would be the point of saying that He is “one”? It is worth noting that it does not say YHWH is one of something (one god, one personality). He is just simply “one”, in every respect of the word. Similarly, the prophet Zechariah tells us about the universal worship of YHWH at the end of days, “And YHWH will be king over the entire earth; at that time YHWH will be one and his name will be one” (Zech 14:9). Zechariah is saying that today people multiply YHWH but at the end-time all mankind will know that YHWH is a single individual deity with one single name. We are taught in the book of Isaiah that YHWH is the one and only, “I am YHWH and besides me there is no savior” (Isa 43:11). Elsewhere in Isaiah, YHWH poses the rhetorical question, “Is there an Eloha (God) besides me?” (Isa 44:8). Similarly we read in the Psalms, “Who is an Eloha (God) besides YHWH and who is a rock (=savior) besides our Elohim?” (Ps 18:32). In these verses the word for “God” is Eloha ?ֱלוֹהַּ, the singular form of Elohim. These passages are saying that YHWH is an Eloha and besides Him there is no other Eloha. Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity. This and the fact that the verbs and adjectives connected with Elohim are always singular confirm our conclusion that Elohim is an majestic plural denoting a singular individual but with a connotation of greatness.
Martian,Loved your explanation of Elohim here.
Now, adding all of your knowledge with this:
First conversation by Elohim is Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let US……….
Plural pronoun, us.
Read the next verse, too.
….man was created in Elohim's image, male and female.
Plain and simple isn't it? God speaking and recorded in the Bible. He is speaking that His essence consists of male and female.
This agrees with what you are explaining.
ONE** ('Echad = unity) God (Elohim = noun, m/f, SING**)
The adjective agreeing with the noun (both singular).
But notice within the ONE GOD the two essences, male and female. Agreement in the Bible with YHVH (male essence) and Holy Spirit (noun, feminine)(female essence)being Elohim (ONE GOD).Great job!
David
You are partially correct. Male and Female are only part of the functions of God.
The Hebrew people explain things by their function and not their appearance.
God is described many times by the way he functioned toward man.
The primary meaning o Elohyim is the plural of majesty. It means he is God above all other Gods.
Hi Martian,I understand what you are saying on how the Hebrews looked at the function aspect….that is why LORD + adjective shows up 200+ times.
So, let's look at what I have partially correct:
If God (Elohim) is male and female then there must be a male and female functioning within Elohim. TWO essences in one God.
How are these functions identified? (What Names or Titles?)
David
PS Thanks for the reference.
Quote (martian @ July 22 2010,17:59) Quote (davidbfun @ July 22 2010,09:12) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,11:32) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,06:00) Martian said: Quote If you read my answers you will see conclusively that echad is not plural in any way. TO ALL: If there is so much as one statement in the Bible that contradicts Martian, then we can send him home in his spaceship.
Well there is:
From the “One Flesh” thread:
The anti-trinitarians here argue that the word “ONE LORD” (Deut. 6:4) argues that Christ cannot be God. WJ and I have tried to show you time and time again that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” and often refers to a plural one. We have given the example of Moses saying that the husband and his wife shall be “one flesh.”
But some of you guys have explained this statement away saying that it does not mean one flesh but “one in purpose.” A scripture came to me that blows away your theory that “one flesh” means “one in purpose.”
8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. Leviticus 18:8
Read it and weep!
The man and his wife are one FLESH. Now take a closer look at Deuteronomy 6:4:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (plural), the LORD is one!
The word “God” is plural. It says that the plural God is one LORD. Get with God's word guys!
Love you Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
But it's time to send you off
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
For the poorly educated among us. (That's you Thinker)
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim ends with the masculine plural suffix “-ִים” From this we might conclude that Elohim signifies a numerical plural (i.e. denoting multiplicity) and translate it accordingly as gods. But before we determine whether the world was created by a single God or multiple gods, we must consider whether Elohim is really a numerical plural.
In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:
1.It receives a plural suffix;
2.It receives a plural verb;
3.It receives a plural adjective.
The first characteristic, the plural suffix, is familiar to the English speaker. In English, most nouns have the plural suffix “s” or “es”. For example, dog is the singular while dogs is the plural. Hebrew adds another dimension by matching adjectives and verbs to the noun. In Hebrew, a plural noun gets a plural verb and plural adjective. In contrast, English verbs and adjectives do not change to match the noun. For example, in English:
Singular: The big dog guarded.
Plural: The big dogs guarded.
But in Hebrew:
Singular: The big (sg) dog (he) guarded. שָׁמַר הַכֶּלֶב הַגָּדוֹל
Plural: The big (pl) dogs (they) guarded. שָׁמְרוּ הַכְּלָבִים הַגְּדוֹלִיםSo the first thing we must check about Elohim is whether it gets a plural adjective and plural verb, because this will tell us whether or not it is a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. In the very first verse of the Torah we read בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים meaning “Elohim (he) created”. Were Elohim a numerical plural, the verse would have to say בָּרְאוּ אֱלֹהִים “Elohim (they) created”. Indeed, the word Elohim appears in its plural form over 2000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in virtually every instance it has a singular verb. It is always “And Elohim (he) spoke to Moses ” and never “And Elohim (they) spoke to Moses “. The same thing can be found with the adjective. The adjective for Elohim is singular, not plural. Thus we find אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיק “righteous (sg) Elohim” (Ps 7:10) and not אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיקִים “righteous (pl) Elohim”.
So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals. The meaning of the plural suffix in the majestic plural is not that there is more than one of the noun, but that the noun is “great, absolute, or majestic”. For example, אָדוֹן means “master” while אֲדוֹנִים (Isa 19:4; Mal 1:6) with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, lord”. Thus we read, “I will imprison the Egyptians in the hand of a harsh lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them” (Isa 19:4). In this verse the fierce king that will enslave Egypt is described as an ?ֲדֹנִים קָשֶׁה “a harsh (sg) lord (pl)”. In this verse, the plural suffix attached to the word ?ֲדֹנִים does not make it a numerical plural (“masters”) but instead magnifies the meaning (“great master, lord”). Because אֲדֹנִים is a majestic plural it receives the singular adjective קָשֶׁה (harsh) and not the plural adjective קָשִׁים that would be required for a numerical plural. The word בַּעַל also means “master” while בְּעָלִים with the masculine plural suffix means “great master, owner”. For example, in Exodus 21 the owner of the “goring ox” is repeatedly referred to as the בְּעָלִים “owner”. The word בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix even though the ox is only owned by one person. In this case, the plural suffix magnifies the noun imbuing it with a connotation of “absolute owner, complete master”. Because בְּעָ
לִים “owner” is a majestic plural it gets a singular verb. Thus we read concerning the negligent owner whose ox has killed, “the ox shall be stoned and the owner (he) will be put to death” (Ex 21:29). The verb ?וּמָת meaning “he will be put to death” is in the singular even though the word for “owner” בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix. The common characteristic of majestic plurals is that they have the plural suffix while denoting singular objects and as a result they receive singular adjectives and singular verbs. Elohim is quite simply an example of the majestic plural and means “great God”.
It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. For example, the second commandment forbids us to worship אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים “other (pl) gods”. In this phrase, not only does Elohim have the plural suffix, but it receives a plural adjective אֲחֵרִים other (pl). This tells us that in the second commandment Elohim is used not as an majestic plural but as a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. The prohibition is not against a specific “other (sg) god” but against any “other (pl) gods”. Elohim is used numerous times throughout the Tanach to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods. So we see that when the Tanach speaks about YHWH it uses Elohim as the majestic plural meaning “great God” but when it speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning “gods”. In both instances the accompanying verbs and adjectives reveal to us which meaning is intended.
Does the majestic plural form of Elohim implies that there is anything multiple about God? To help clarify this it is worth looking at the few instances where the majestic plural form of Elohim is used to refer to someone other than YHWH. The clearest example of this is in Exodus 7:1. In this passage YHWH tells Moses that he will make him an Elohim to Pharaoh: “Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet” (Exodus 7:1). Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh.
On rare occasions Elohim is used as majestic plural even when referring to pagan gods. For example, “And they bowed down to Ashtoret the Elohim of the Sidonians, to Kemosh the Elohim of Moab, and to Milkom the Elohim of the children of Amon.” (1Ki 11:33). Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a “great God”. On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them. The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them.
Clearly the word Elohim, when it refers to YHWH, is an majestic plural which is numerically singular, having a singular verb and a singular adjective. This majestic plural is simply a grammatical form that denotes greatness without any implication that the object itself is a plurality or multiplicity. If we maintain that Elohim implies multiplicity then we must concede that Moses was also a multiplicity along with Kemosh the pagan deity of the Moabites and Milkom the pagan deity of the Amonites.
That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Moses declares to the children of Israel, “YHWH is our Elohim, YHWH is one” (Dt 6:4). Were YHWH a multiplicity of gods or personalities what would be the point of saying that He is “one”? It is worth noting that it does not say YHWH is one of something (one god, one personality). He is just simply “one”, in every respect of the word. Similarly, the prophet Zechariah tells us about the universal worship of YHWH at the end of days, “And YHWH will be king over the entire earth; at that time YHWH will be one and his name will be one” (Zech 14:9). Zechariah is saying that today people multiply YHWH but at the end-time all mankind will know that YHWH is a single individual deity with one single name. We are taught in the book of Isaiah that YHWH is the one and only, “I am YHWH and besides me there is no savior” (Isa 43:11). Elsewhere in Isaiah, YHWH poses the rhetorical question, “Is there an Eloha (God) besides me?” (Isa 44:8). Similarly we read in the Psalms, “Who is an Eloha (God) besides YHWH and who is a rock (=savior) besides our Elohim?” (Ps 18:32). In these verses the word for “God” is Eloha ?ֱלוֹהַּ, the singular form of Elohim. These passages are saying that YHWH is an Eloha and besides Him there is no other Eloha. Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity. This and the fact that the verbs and adjectives connected with Elohim are always singular confirm our conclusion that Elohim is an majestic plural denoting a singular individual but with a connotation of greatness.
Martian,Loved your explanation of Elohim here.
Now, adding all of your knowledge with this:
First conversation by Elohim is Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let US……….
Plural pronoun, us.
Read the next verse, too.
….man was created in Elohim's image, male and female.
Plain and simple isn't it? God speaking and recorded in the Bible. He is speaking that His essence consists of male and female.
This agrees with what you are explaining.
ONE** ('Echad = unity) God (Elohim = noun, m/f, SING**)
The adjective agreeing with the noun (both singular).
But notice within the ONE GOD the two essences, male and female. Agreement in the Bible with YHVH (male essence) and Holy Spirit (noun, feminine)(female essence)being Elohim (ONE GOD).Great job!
David
You are partially correct. Male and Female are only part of the functions of God.
The Hebrew people explain things by their function and not their appearance.
God is described many times by the way he functioned toward man.
The primary meaning o Elohyim is the plural of majesty. It means he is God above all other Gods.
Hello Martian,Look at Gen 1:2 and Gen 2:4
You'll see Ruach Elohim רוח אלהים translated as “God's Spirit”.
You'll see YHVH Elohim יהוה אלהים translated incorrectly as LORD God which should be translated in like manner as Gen 1:2 making Gen 2:4 “God's YHVH”.
From this it is clear that Spirit and YHVH are parts of Elohim and could be translated:
Spirit of God
YHVH of GodWhich makes it easy to see that Spirit and YHVH are objects of Elohim and not names. And as you would call them, “functions” of Elohim.
This makes it very easy to see that God (Elohim) is one, with TWO functions.
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