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Hi Thinker,
I wish you could go out of body as an unbiased person and read the way you butcher the Scriptures to prove a flawed man-made doctrine that isn't even mentioned in the Bible.
You said:
Quote “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.” It's clear! Jehovah said, “Serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you and I will heal you.”
Thinker, when Jehovah refers to Himself in the third person, He uses the pronoun “he”. When in first person, the pronoun “I”. Sometime He switches from third to first in the middle of a sentence. While the wording does seem odd, He said something that is worded similarly before He ever started talking about sending a messenger. Look at Exodus 15:
Quote 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.” Besides, your godhead is only one God, right? If God says “I”, it means God. If God says “he”, and it isn't referring to Himself in the third person, it means the “he” is referring to someone other than Himself, right? So your breakthrough proof breaks down like this:
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE (someone other than Jehovah your God) will bless your bread and your water.And I hope you're taking notice that even though “God” is plural, all the pronouns are singular. Not an “us” to be found.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,08:02) The Father has now turned it all over to Jesus Mike! When are you gonna get that? So look at Matt 28:18-20 in its context and you will see that he is not impying inequality among the three at all!
Hi WJ,Pharoah gave Joseph “all power and authority” too. But isn't it understood that it means “all power and authority” over everyone EXCEPT the one who gave the “power and authority”? It should be, it's common sense.
About Matt 28:
Quote Do those verses say that God, Christ, and the holy spirit constitute a Trinitarian Godhead, that the three are equal in substance, power, and eternity? No, they do not, no more than listing three people, such as Tom, Dick, and Harry, means that they are three in one. This type of reference, admits McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, “proves only that there are the three subjects named, . . . but it does not prove, by itself, that all the three belong necessarily to the divine nature, and possess equal divine honor.”
Although a supporter of the Trinity, that source says of 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14): “We could not justly infer that they possessed equal authority, or the same nature.” And of Matthew 28:18-20 it says: “This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.”
That was the Witnesses quoting Strong's.
And JA's got it right. The three “of”s tell a story. If all had one name, it would read “in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” But what is implied by the “of”s is, “in the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.”
Come on WJ, don't you think it's strange that the “truth” of the trinity would be such a mystery? Why isn't there one Scripture that says, “YHVH the Son did this”, or YHVH the Spirit did that”? Isn't just the titles of Father and Son enough for you to see that one is the Senior and the other is the Junior?
peace and love,
mikeOh the same stuff over and over again. It makes no difference how much proof is posted, WJ and Thinker (like Moonies and Mormons) will keep on smiling and regurgitating their nonsense.
It is clear that Matthes was originally written in Hebrew. For this I give you the testimony of Church Fathers.Papias (150-170 CE) – Matthew composed the words in the Hebrew dialect, and each translated as he was able.
Ireneus (170 CE) – Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.
Origen (210 CE) – The first [Gospel] is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an apoltle of Jesus Christ who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew.
Eusebius (315 CE) – Matthew also, having first proclaimed the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going also to the other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings.
Epiphanius (370 CE) – They [The Nazarenes] have the Gospel according to Matthew quite complete in Hebrew, for this Gospel is certainly still preserved among them as it was first written, in Hebrew letters.
Jerome ( 382 CE) – Matthew, who is also Levi, and from a tax collectore came to be an Apostle first of all evangelists composed a Gospel of Christ in Judea in the Hebrew language and letters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed, who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian cityof Borea to copy it. In which is to be remarked that, wherever the evangelist…. makes use of the testimonies of the Old Scripture, he does not follow the authority of the seventy translators, but that of the Hebrew
Isho'dad (850 CE) – His [Matthew's] book was in existence in Caesarea of Palestine, and everyone acknowledges that he wrote it with his hands in Hebrew.There are also many idioms that do not make sense in English or Greek but are completely clear if translated back to Hebrew.
If the great commission is translated back in Hebrew it would read like this.
Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is like Him and of the special breath which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of life.
The “Great Commission” is neither a Trinitarian proof text nor even a complete water baptism verse. Water baptism is only a shadow of the deeper emersion we are to have in the Character of God as shown through His son Jesus.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2010,15:24) Hi Thinker, I wish you could go out of body as an unbiased person and read the way you butcher the Scriptures to prove a flawed man-made doctrine that isn't even mentioned in the Bible.
You said:
Quote “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.” It's clear! Jehovah said, “Serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you and I will heal you.”
Thinker, when Jehovah refers to Himself in the third person, He uses the pronoun “he”. When in first person, the pronoun “I”. Sometime He switches from third to first in the middle of a sentence. While the wording does seem odd, He said something that is worded similarly before He ever started talking about sending a messenger. Look at Exodus 15:
Quote 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.” Besides, your godhead is only one God, right? If God says “I”, it means God. If God says “he”, and it isn't referring to Himself in the third person, it means the “he” is referring to someone other than Himself, right? So your breakthrough proof breaks down like this:
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE (someone other than Jehovah your God) will bless your bread and your water.And I hope you're taking notice that even though “God” is plural, all the pronouns are singular. Not an “us” to be found.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,Seeing that Martian is too chicken
to answer me I guess I am stuck with you. As I said once before your English teacher robbed the taxpayers. First, your reasoning from Exodus 15:26 is circular. The third person is Jehovah the Messenger and the first person is Jehovah the Speaker. Chapter 14 says it was the Messenger of Jehovah who guided the people (vs. 19). Chapter 15 begins with the song that Moses and the people sang to Jehovah [the Messenger] praising Him for delivering them out of Egypt. They refer to the Messenger who delivered them simply as “Jehovah.”
So the third person of chapter 15 is Jehovah the Messenger. The book of Numbers concurs:
16 When we cried out to Jehovah, He heard our voice and sent the Messenger and brought us up out of Egypt; now here we are in Kadesh, a city on the edge of your border. Numbers 20:16
This Messenger who brought the people out of Egypt was Jesus:
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV (Critical text)
So Exodus 15:26 would be understood thus:
“If you diligently heed the voice of Jehovah [the Messenger] your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am Jehovah who heals you.”
Second, Jehovah's Witnesses disallow the approach you have taken regarding Jehovah referencing Himself in both the first and third persons. Note what they say about the trinitarian translation of Zechariah 12:10:
Quote The context of this passage is also very revealing. Yahweh also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. In that day Yahweh will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Messenger of Yahweh before them. And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced and will mourn for him, as one mourns for an only Son, and they will weep bitterly over him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn…. In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity… And one will say to him, `What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, `Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' Awake, O sword, against MY Shepherd, and against the man who stand next to me,” declares Yahweh of Hosts. “Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones…. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, `They are My people,' And they will say, `Yahweh is my God.' ”
I am the Good Shepherd (John 10:11).
Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, “I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered. (Matthew 26:31).
http://www.angelfire.com/space….10.htmlNote that the JW's deny that Zechariah 12:10 should read, “they shall look on ME whom they have pierced” because it does not fit with the next statement, “they shall mourn for HIM.” The JW's are correct on this one. It should read, “they shall look on HIM whom they have pierced…and they shall mourn for HIM.”
Then it says, “Awake O sword against MY Shepherd.”
In other words dude, your own JW buddies say that it is unintelligible for Jehovah to reference Himself in both the first and third persons. Therefore, your treatment of Exodus 15:26 is altogether unintelligible.
The first and third persons clearly cannot be the same person in 12:10. This is why the JW's CORRECTLY translate the first pronoun in 12:10 in the third person so the two pronouns match, “They shall look on HIM whom they have pierced…they shall mourn for HIM.”
NEVER AT ANY TIME CAN THE FIRST AND THIRD PERSONS BE THE SAME PERSON. YOUR ENGLISH TEACHER WAS A FRAUD!
So in Exodus 15:26 the third person is Jehovah the Messenger and the first person is Jehovah the Speaker,
“If you listen carefully to the voice of Jehovah [My Messenger] your God and do what is right in HIS eyes, if you pay attention to HIS commands and keep all HIS decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.”
Third, throughout the entire section of Exodus 23:20-25 the third person is the Messenger. Read it again:
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Fourth, I have already shown you that when the Messenger manifested Himself to Moses in the burning bush He claimed to be the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Exodus 3). When will you answer this?
Fifth, the Messenger also told Jacob that He was God:
Genesis 28:20-22:Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the LORD shall be my God. 22 And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
Genesis 31:11-13:Then the Messenger of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’”
Jacob made a vow TO GOD at Bethel. The Messenger of God came to Jacob and said, “I am the God of Bethel” and “You made the vow at Bethel TO ME.”
Therefore, the Messenger to whom Jacob made the vow was God!
Now answer the Messenger's claim in both Exodus 3 and Genesis 31.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 14 2010,07:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2010,15:24) Hi Thinker, I wish you could go out of body as an unbiased person and read the way you butcher the Scriptures to prove a flawed man-made doctrine that isn't even mentioned in the Bible.
You said:
Quote “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.” It's clear! Jehovah said, “Serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you and I will heal you.”
Thinker, when Jehovah refers to Himself in the third person, He uses the pronoun “he”. When in first person, the pronoun “I”. Sometime He switches from third to first in the middle of a sentence. While the wording does seem odd, He said something that is worded similarly before He ever started talking about sending a messenger. Look at Exodus 15:
Quote 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.” Besides, your godhead is only one God, right? If God says “I”, it means God. If God says “he”, and it isn't referring to Himself in the third person, it means the “he” is referring to someone other than Himself, right? So your breakthrough proof breaks down like this:
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE (someone other than Jehovah your God) will bless your bread and your water.And I hope you're taking notice that even though “God” is plural, all the pronouns are singular. Not an “us” to be found.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,Seeing that Martian is too chicken
to answer me I guess I am stuck with you. As I said once before your English teacher robbed the taxpayers. First, your reasoning from Exodus 15:26 is circular. The third person is Jehovah the Messenger and the first person is Jehovah the Speaker. Chapter 14 says it was the Messenger of Jehovah who guided the people (vs. 19). Chapter 15 begins with the song that Moses and the people sang to Jehovah [the Messenger] praising Him for delivering them out of Egypt. They refer to the Messenger who delivered them simply as “Jehovah.”
So the third person of chapter 15 is Jehovah the Messenger. The book of Numbers concurs:
16 When we cried out to Jehovah, He heard our voice and sent the Messenger and brought us up out of Egypt; now here we are in Kadesh, a city on the edge of your border. Numbers 20:16
This Messenger who brought the people out of Egypt was Jesus:
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV (Critical text)
So Exodus 15:26 would be understood thus:
“If you diligently heed the voice of Jehovah [the Messenger] your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am Jehovah who heals you.”
Second, Jehovah's Witnesses disallow the approach you have taken regarding Jehovah referencing Himself in both the first and third persons. Note what they say about the trinitarian translation of Zechariah 12:10:
Quote The context of this passage is also very revealing. Yahweh also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. In that day Yahweh will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Messenger of Yahweh before them. And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced and will mourn for him, as one mourns for an only Son, and they will weep bitterly over him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn…. In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity… And one will say to him, `What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, `Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' Awake, O sword, against MY Shepherd, and against the man who stand next to me,” declares Yahweh of Hosts. “Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones…. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, `They are My people,' And they will say, `Yahweh is my God.' ”
I am the Good Shepherd (John 10:11).
Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, “I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered. (Matthew 26:31).
http://www.angelfire.com/space….10.htmlNote that the JW's deny that Zechariah 12:10 should read, “they shall look on ME whom they have pierced because it does not fit with the next statement, they shall mourn for HIM.” The JW's are correct on this one. It should read, “they shall look on HIM whom they have pierced…and they shall mourn for HIM.”
Then it says, “Awake O sword against MY Shepherd.”
In other words dude, your own JW buddies say that it is unintelligible for Jehovah to reference Himself in both the first and third persons. Therefore, your treatment of Exodus 15:26 is altogether unintelligible.
The first and third persons in trinitarian translations clearly cannot be the same person in 12:10. This is why the JW's CORRECTLY translate the first pronoun in 12:10 in the third person so it matches the second pronoun, “They shall look on HIM whom they have pierced…they shall mourn for HIM.”
NEVER AT ANY TIME CAN THE FIRST AND THIRD PERSONS BE THE SAME PERSON. YOUR ENGLISH TEACHER WAS A FRAUD!
So in Exodus 15:26 the third person is Jehovah the Messenger and the first person is Jehovah the Speaker,
“If you listen carefully to the voice of Jehovah [My Messenger] your God and do what is right in HIS eyes, if you pay attention to HIS commands and keep all HIS decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.”
Third, throughout the entire section of Exodus 23:20-25 the third person is the Messenger. Read it again:
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Fourth, I have already shown you that when the Messenger manifested Himself to Moses in the burning bush He claimed to be the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Exodus 3). When will you answer this?
Fifth, the Messenger also told Jacob that He was God:
Genesis 28:20-22:Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the LORD shall be my God. 22 And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
Genesis 31:11-13:Then the Messenger of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’”
Jacob made a vow TO GOD at Bethel. The Messenger of God came to Jacob and said, “I am the God of Bethel” and “You made the vow at Bethel TO ME.”
Therefore, the Messenger to whom Jacob made the vow was God!
Now answer the Messenger's claim in both Exodus 3 and Genesis 31.
thinker
I am not chicken just tired of casting pearls before the swine. (that be you)
You totally refuse to deal with the Hebrew culture that clearly shows that when a being acts on God's behalf they are often called God. this does not literally mean they are God. The messenger is an angel acting on the behalf of God and is therefore treated as if it were God himself.You are so quick to say this messenger is God and yet you are not willing to accept the leaders of Israel as Gods when YHWH calls them thus in Psalm 82 and also unwilling to call the leaders of Israel (in Jesus time) Gods when Christ himself calls them such. If your deductions are so astute in one case they should apply in the others.
Unfortunately you are playing the village idiot again.
Martian said:
Quote am not chicken just tired of casting pearls before the swine. (that be you)
You totally refuse to deal with the Hebrew culture that clearly shows that when a being acts on God's behalf they are often called God. this does not literally mean they are God. The messenger is an angel acting on the behalf of God and is therefore treated as if it were God himself.You are so quick to say this messenger is God and yet you are not willing to accept the leaders of Israel as Gods when YHWH calls them thus in Psalm 82 and also unwilling to call the leaders of Israel (in Jesus time) Gods when Christ himself calls them such. If your deductions are so astute in one case they should apply in the others.
Unfortunately you are playing the village idiot again.
Martian,
If you knew the Hebrew culture as you think you would know that the “swine” were the Gentiles. Jesus' charge to the disciples not to cast pearls before “swine” was in effect only while their commission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel was in effect. The gospel goes out to all men now. But you misapply it saying that I am a “swine.”Your “swine” statement is proof that you don't know all you think you know.
Okay Mr. Hebrew culture scholar. Show from the Hebrew culture where the first and third person pronouns refer to the same person. Mike's idea is total nonsense!
While you're at it explain the Critical Text which says that it was Jesus who delivered the people out of Egypt.
Jude 5
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV (Critical text)How will you disprove the oldest manuscripts we have to date? The Critical Text contradicts your denial of Christ's preexistence and divinity.
Martian:
Quote You are so quick to say this messenger is God and yet you are not willing to accept the leaders of Israel as Gods when YHWH calls them thus in Psalm 82 and also unwilling to call the leaders of Israel (in Jesus time) Gods when Christ himself calls them such. If your deductions are so astute in one case they should apply in the others.
I accept that the leaders were “gods” in the generic sense of “rulers.” If you were astute you would see that the name “Son” in reference to Jesus is superior to the name “gods” in reference to men and angels. The angels were called “gods” but none of them were called “Son.”4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
This certainly throws a wrench in your Arain and Gnostic works. You say that Jesus is a “god” in a sense that is equal to men and angels. But the inspired apostle says that the name “Son” is a “more excellent name” than the name of angels who were called “gods.”
Answer Genesis 28:20-22 and 31:11-13:
Genesis 28:20-22:
Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the LORD shall be my God. 22 And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”Genesis 31:11-13:
Then the Messenger of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’”The language is clear! The Messenger said that He is “the God of Bethel” to whom Jacob made the vow.
Again, Mike's idea that Jehovah speaks of Himself in both the first and third persons is altogether unintelligible and nonsense! He speaks of Jehovah His Messenger in the third person and of Himself in the first person.
thinker
Nonthinker —
Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
So if Moses wrote the book of Genesis then he is God based on the fact that he says saith the lord.Joshua 7:13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
Joshua is God too?
1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
Samual is God?
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isiah is God?
Jeremiah 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah is God?
Ezekiel 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?
Ezekiel is God?
Amos 4:9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amos is God?
Obadiah 1:8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
Obadiah is God?
Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
Micah is God?Haggai 2:17 I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labours of your hands; yet ye turned not to me, saith the LORD.
Haggai is God?Zechariah 1:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
Zechariah is God?Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
John is God?
All of these spoke first person from God. Does that make them all Gods?
You are being the village idiot again.martian
it does not matters, the are not believers in scriptures ,in Gods will ,they have reach an understanding that the trinity is a lie, and there for, their religion what they are fallowing his their master.
just as pharisees .they miss the computer games DRAGON and DONJONS.Quote (martian @ April 14 2010,11:32) Nonthinker —
Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
So if Moses wrote the book of Genesis then he is God based on the fact that he says saith the lord.Joshua 7:13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
Joshua is God too?
1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
Samual is God?
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isiah is God?
Jeremiah 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah is God?
Ezekiel 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?
Ezekiel is God?
Amos 4:9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amos is God?
Obadiah 1:8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
Obadiah is God?
Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
Micah is God?Haggai 2:17 I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labours of your hands; yet ye turned not to me, saith the LORD.
Haggai is God?Zechariah 1:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
Zechariah is God?Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
John is God?
All of these spoke first person from God. Does that make them all Gods?
You are being the village idiot again.
Martian,What is all this nonsense? The scriptures you gave indicate that it is God who is speaking. Sorry but I am not folowoing yyou here.
The Messenger of Jehovah declared Himself to be the “I AM.”
Quote 1Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2And the Messenger of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
8And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
9Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.
10Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
11And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
It's co clear dude! It was the Messenger of the Lord who appeared in the burning bush and spoke to Moses calling himself “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
You are a disobedient man.
thinker
Thinker –
Every time in the verses I quoted the person speaking said it was God speaking. Was it literally God or did the words come out of the mouth and throat of the prophet. So the messenger prophesied. What's the big deal?Gen three the term messenger means “one who walks for another.” Who is this “another”? Is it God? If it is God then who was the messenger. Do you have two Gods?
Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,11:33) Thinker –
Every time in the verses I quoted the person speaking said it was God speaking. Was it literally God or did the words come out of the mouth and throat of the prophet. So the messenger prophesied. What's the big deal?Gen three the term messenger means “one who walks for another.” Who is this “another”? Is it God? If it is God then who was the messenger. Do you have two Gods?
Martian,
Exactly. The person said it was God speaking. But the Messenger did not say that it was God speaking. The Messenger did not say, “God says, 'I am the God of Bethel.' ”The Messenger said, “I am the God of Bethel.”
The angel Gabriel said to Mary, “The power of the Most High will overshadow you.” But the Messenger said to Sarah, “I will multiply your seed.”
At the end of that narrative Moses identified the Messenger as Jehovah (Genesis 16:7-13).
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 15 2010,11:55) Quote (martian @ April 15 2010,11:33) Thinker –
Every time in the verses I quoted the person speaking said it was God speaking. Was it literally God or did the words come out of the mouth and throat of the prophet. So the messenger prophesied. What's the big deal?Gen three the term messenger means “one who walks for another.” Who is this “another”? Is it God? If it is God then who was the messenger. Do you have two Gods?
Martian,
Exactly. The person said it was God speaking. But the Messenger did not say that it was God speaking. The Messenger did not say, “God says, 'I am the God of Bethel.' ”The Messenger said, “I am the God of Bethel.”
The angel Gabriel said to Mary, “The power of the Most High will overshadow you.” But the Messenger said to Sarah, “I will multiply your seed.”
At the end of that narrative Moses identified the Messenger as Jehovah (Genesis 16:7-13).
thinker
psalm 82 YHWH identifies the leaders of Israel as Gods.
John 10 Jesus identifies the leaders of Israel as Gods.You refuse to see Hebrew language from their culture. Anything or anyone that acts on behalf or in the character of God can be referred to as God. Hebrews think from a functional standpoint not by appearance as you continue to do.
Greek thought describes objects in relation to its appearance. Hebrew thought describes objects in relation to its function.
A deer and an oak are two very different objects and we would never describe them in the same way with our Greek form of descriptions. The Hebrew word for both of these objects is איל (ayil) because the functional description of these two objects are identical to the ancient Hebrews, therefore, the same Hebrew word is used for both. The Hebraic definition of איל is “a strong leader”.
A deer stag is one of the most powerful animals of the forest and is seen as “a strong leader” among the other animals of the forest. Also the oak tree's wood is very hard compared to other trees such as the pine which is soft and is seen as a “strong leader” among the trees of the forest.
Notice the two different translations of the Hebrew word איל in Psalms 29.9. The NASB and KJV translates it as “The voice of the LORD makes the deer to calve” while the NIV translates it as “The voice of the LORD twists the oaks”. The literal translation of this verse in Hebrew thought would be; “The voice of the LORD makes the strong leaders turn”.
When translating the Hebrew into English, the translator must give a Greek description to this word which is why we have two different ways of translating this verse. This same word is also translated as a “ruler” in 2 Kings 24.15, who is a man who is a strong leader.
Another example of Greek thought would be the following description of a common pencil: “it is yellow and about 8 inches long”. A Hebrew description of the pencil would be related to its function such as “I write words with it”. Notice that the Hebrew description uses the verb “write” while the Greek description uses the adjectives “yellow” and “long”. Because of Hebrew's form of functional descriptions, verbs are used much more frequently then adjectives.http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_thought.html
This concept can be clearly seen in the names of God in the bible.
•Jehovah Bore (Isaiah 40:28) - The LORD Creator
•Jehovah Chereb (Deuteronomy 33:29) - The LORD… the Sword
•Jehovah Eli (Psalms 18:2) - The LORD My GOD
•Jehovah Elyon (Genesis 14:18-20) - The LORD Most High
•Jehovah Gibbor Milchamah (Psalms 24:8) - The LORD Mighty In Battle
•Jehovah Maginnenu (Psalms 89:18) - The LORD Our Defense
•Jehovah Goelekh (Isaiah 49:26&60:16) - The LORD Thy Redeemer
•Jehovah Hashopet (Judges 11:27) - The LORD the Judge
•Jehovah Hoshiah (Psalms 20:9) - O LORD Save
•Jehovah Immeka (Judges 6:12) - The LORD Is with You
•Jehovah Izuz Wegibbor (Psalms 24:8) - The LORD Strong and Mighty
•Jehovah-jireth (Genesis 22:14) - The LORD Shall Provide
•Jehovah Kabodhi (Psalms 3:3) - The LORD My GOD
•Jehovah Kanna Shemo (Exodus 34:14) - The LORD Whose Name Is Jealous
•Jehovah Keren-Yishi (Psalms 18:2) - The LORD the Horn of My Salvation
•Jehovah Machsi (Psalms 91:9) The LORD My Refuge
•Jehovah Magen (Deuteronomy 33:29) - The LORD the Shield
•Jehovah Makkeh (Ezekiel 7:9) - The LORD that Smiteth
•Jehovah Mauzzam (Psalms 37:39) - The LORD Their Strength
•Jehovah Mauzzi (Jeremiah 16:19) - The LORD My Fortress
•Ha-Melech Jehovah (Psalms 98:6) - The LORD the King
•Jehovah Melech Olam (Psalms 10:16) - The LORD King Forever
•Jehovah Mephalti (Psalms 18:2) - The LORD My Deliverer
•Jehovah Mekaddishkem (Exodus 31:13) - The LORD that Sanctifies You
•Jehovah Metsudhathi (Psalms 18:2) - The LORD My High Tower
•Jehovah Moshiekh (Isaiah 49:26&60:16) - The LORD Your Savior
•Jehovah Nissi (Exodus 17:15) - The LORD My Banner
•Jehovah Ori (Psalms 27:1) - The LORD My Light
•Jehovah Uzzi (Psalms 28:7) - The LORD My Strength
•Jehovah Rophe (Exodus 15:26) - The LORD (our) Healer
•Jehovah Roi (Psalms 23:1) - The LORD My Shepherd
•Jehovah Sabaoth (Tsebaoth) (I Samuel 1:3) - The LORD of Hosts
•Jehovah Sali (Psalms 18:2) - The LORD My Rock
•Jehovah Shalom (Judges 6:24) - The LORD (our) Peace
•Jehovah Shammah (Ezekiel 48:35) The LORD Is There
•Jehovah Tsidkenu (Jeremiah 23:6) - The LORD Our Righteousness
Jehovah Tsuri (Psalms 19:14) - O LORD My Strength
Notice all these names depict an action or function of God. The Hebrews named God and the rest of their world by their function.he English word “angel” comes from the Greek angelos, which means 'messenger'. In the Old Testament, with two exceptions, the Hebrew word for “angel” is malak, also meaning 'messenger'. The prophet Malachi took his name from this word. He was himself a messenger
Although the word “angel” in the Bible, meaning a messenger, nearly always applies to heavenly beings, it can occasionally apply to human messengers. Malachi himself said a priest was a messenger (malak) of the LORD of hosts (Malachi 2:7), and in the Book of Revelation the elders of the seven churches of Asia were called angels (1:20; 2:1 etc.). But when we meet messengers doing supernatural things, there is no doubt they are heavenly beings – God's messengers, working for Him and for the ultimate benefit of mankind.
When the Israelites were released from their slavery in Egypt and started their journey back to the land of promise, it was the angel of God who led the tribes of Israel (Exodus 14:19). Arriving at Mount Sinai some months later, the congregation of two million people gathered at the foot of the “holy” mountain (where Moses had seen the angel in the burning bush) and were terrified by the manifestation of divine power in the thunder and lightning, smoke, fire and earthquake. Moses was called up to Sinai to meet with God's representative in all his glory, and the tables of stone with the famous ten commandments were “written with the finger of God”. A rebellion by the Israelites during his absence almost brought about the breaking of the covenant that God made with this nation; but Moses interceded and pleaded with the LORD God to lead the people, personally, on their journey to Canaan. THE LORD REPLIED THAT HE WOULD NOT GO IN PERSON, BUT:
“BEHOLD, I SEND AN ANGEL BEFORE THEE, TO KEEP THEE IN THE WAY, AND TO BRING THEE INTO THE PLACE WHICH I HAVE PREPARED. BEWARE OF HIM, AND OBEY HIS VOICE, PROVOKE HIM NOT: FOR HE WILL NOT PARDON YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS: FOR MY NAME IS IN HIM.” (EXODUS 23:20,21)
Observe the authority given to this angel! God had put His name into the messenger: the angel would guard them on the journey, but he must be obeyed or he would punish them. YET THE LORD HIMSELF WOULD “NOT GO UP IN THE MIDST OF THEE” BUT WOULD ALLOW HIS “PRESENCE” TO BE WITH THEM (EXODUS 33:3.14). THE DIVINE POWER, GLORY AND AUTHORITY WOULD BE WHOLLY VESTED IN THIS ANGEL. The evidence of his presence would be there in the pillar of cloud in the daytime and the pillar of fire that would be over the tabernacle at night. If they had “eyes to see” they would know that he was there, looking after their interests. Moses and the High Priest would be able to get closer than anyone else. But none of the people, only the High Priest on one day in the year (the Day of Atonement) was able to experience the brilliant glory which resided between the wings of the gold “cherubim” over the ark in the Most Holy Place in the tabernacle.
The cherubim are first mentioned when Adam and Eve were driven from Eden. They guarded the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:24), and were modelled in gold on the Ark to represent God's protection and care.
Again, when Moses on Mount Sinai desired to see the face of God Himself he was not permitted to do so, only to witness the glory of the LORD passing by: “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live” (Exodus 33:20). The Lord Jesus confirmed this when he said, “No man hath seen God at any time” (John 1:18). The angels therefore brought divine information to men and women, which they could not otherwise receive because of God's holiness and man's sinfulness.So what is the context of your magical verse. The context is God sending of an angel/messenger to the people of Israel. This angel is not God as clearly seen in the context. However this angel does have power and authority given it by God.
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.Verse 25 shows the created angel of God acting and YHWH acting.
The Angel had God’s “Name” within him.
Unlike our names, a Hebrew's name was a word with meaning. This meaning was a reflection of the person himself and his character. The Hebrew word “shem” is most often translated as “name” and the name of Shem in English is Name.
The word shem means much more than just a name. A related word in Hebrew is the word “neshemah” meaning “breath”. In the Hebrew mind the breath is much more than the exchange of air in the lungs but was the seat of one’s character.
This is similar to our desire to “have a good name”. This has nothing to do the actual name but the character of the one with the name.
So the Angel had the character of God created within him in order to deal with the Israelites properly.The angel blessed the food and water and God took the sickness away.
You claim that the angel is Jesus yet scripture states that God would not go with Israel so if it was Jesus he is not God.
Gen 31:13 is in the same vane. Already proven that the angel of God is not God himself, so the Angel in verse 13 prophesizes and speaks from first person from God. So what! Big Deal! It does not prove the angel is Jesus.Thinker
The Angel of God had God's character and represented/manifested God to the people. From a hebrew mindset, this would be indicated by calling the Angel, God. It is the asme as when God calls the leaders of Israel Gods and jesus does the same. Were they literally Gods? It does not literally mean the Angel is God. You refuse to understand scripture from within the hebrew culture. For this reason you continue to error.Thinker,
Understanding that the use of God can mean those that act on God's behalf, is it unusual that the Angel of Bethel speaks in a way that the Hebrew culture would understand?Thinker,
A simple question for you. If Jude 5 should read “Jesus” instead of “Lord” Why do only a few translations render it that way?
Just like you ignore context, you also ignore other proper principles of interpretation.
If there is contradiction in the translations of a particular word in scripture always go with the preponderance of the evidence.
In the case of this verse the following translations all render it Lord.
NIV
NAS
AMPLIFIED
KJV
CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION
NEW KJV
AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
YOUNG’S LITERAL TRANSLATION
DARBY TRANSLATION
HOLMAN CHRISTIAN STANDARD BIBLE
NEW INTERNATIONAL READER’S VERSION
WORLDWIDE ENGLISH
NIV (UK)
TODAY’S NIVAre you smarter then all of these translators that you think a few manuscripts amounts to enough evidence to support that it is Jesus and not Lord?
Obviously you searched for something to support your doctrine no matter how obscure or doubtful the evidence.The manuscript evidence is not that strong for a rendering of Jesus over Lord. I seems to me that the statement that the “Jesus” reading has the ’strongest’ reading is a little strong. The earliest “Jesus” and “Lord” mss are both in the IV century; the second earliest ms for both reading is in the V century; the third earliest witnesses for both readings are in the IX century – the difference being that the “Lord” reading has four IX century mss (well, some of these could actually be earlier than IX century! I’m just trying to be conservative) to the “Jesus” reading’s one ms. The “Jesus” reading then has one ms in the X century, followed by one in the XI: the one in the XI century is matched and bettered by two XI century “Lord” mss. The “Jesus” reading then has a ms in the XII century, followed by one in the XIV: the XIV century ms is matched by a “Lord” mss. Then, finally, the “Lord” reading has a ms in the XV century.
Again, I might be misreading the info, but that’s what it looks like to me: the mss evidence isn’t particularly strong in favour of the “Jesus” reading; in fact, it seems to me to be in favour of the “Lord” reading (six mss before the IX century to match – date to date – the “Jesus” reading’s three; with the “Lord” reading also having more ms witnesses than the “Jesus’ reading).Quote (martian @ April 17 2010,20:41) Again, I might be misreading the info, but that’s what it looks like to me: the mss evidence isn’t particularly strong in favour of the “Jesus” reading; in fact, it seems to me to be in favour of the “Lord” reading (six mss before the IX century to match – date to date – the “Jesus” reading’s three; with the “Lord” reading also having more ms witnesses than the “Jesus’ reading).
MartianIt doesn't matter for the referent in verse 4, 5 is the same person. Proper grammar should tell you that.
All Jack is saying is that the rendering of some manuscripts being “Jesus” only supports that Jesus is the one who delivered the people of God out of Egypt.
Hebrews 10:4 confirms it because in every case the word Christ is used in the NT it is refering to Jesus!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2010,06:38) Quote (martian @ April 17 2010,20:41) Again, I might be misreading the info, but that’s what it looks like to me: the mss evidence isn’t particularly strong in favour of the “Jesus” reading; in fact, it seems to me to be in favour of the “Lord” reading (six mss before the IX century to match – date to date – the “Jesus” reading’s three; with the “Lord” reading also having more ms witnesses than the “Jesus’ reading).
MartianIt doesn't matter for the referent in verse 4, 5 is the same person. Proper grammar should tell you that.
All Jack is saying is that the rendering of some manuscripts being “Jesus” only supports that Jesus is the one who delivered the people of God out of Egypt.
Hebrews 10:4 confirms it because in every case the word Christ is used in the NT it is refering to Jesus!
WJ
Hi WJ,
When there is variation in manuscripts all but one is wrong.
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