- This topic is empty.
- Posts
To ALL….>What does it mean where it say we have died with Christ , and in what way have died with him, and are we expected to be just like him NOW in our Present state, of our human condition. What does it mean in
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, verse 27 …> But a certain fearful looking for of Judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (satans).
WHAT IS THE PRESENT STATE OF A CHRISTIAN? if he does sin willfully is he done away with or is there something else that happens to him . Is he or she cast into a state of intense judgement (fiery trial) because of there sins or are they still forgiven them what are the consequences of willful sining on a Christians? This is a very important subject and by understand it i believe we can all benefit, because i feel many suffer all kinds of things like infirmities and pains and different ailments because they do not understand this, and how can mch of this suffering be prevented Now.
What i have come to see in part by some of the things Kerwin has Posted and said, and putting it together with other scriptures is that once you have had your (PAST) SINS forgiven then there is NO MORE offering for you sins any longer, and if you do not repent and stop sining but continue sinning you are cast into a Fiery state of Judgment, NOW, I used to think that would be in the future when we are being Judged, but have come to see we are being Judged NOW not later, and GOD is in effect Burning away our sins through intense Judgements NOW. WE must Die to ourselves as Jesus died to himself and stop any sin we have.
When Jesus said if they eye offend you cast it from you for better you enter the kingdom of GOD with one eye then to have two and be cast into the fire where the worm (the which cause sin) does not die and (as a result) the fire (intense judgement) is not quenched. As long as we keep sinning we will be continually be punished (NOW) not later as most assume. Remember i am talking about true Christians not the rest of the world , their judgement is latter but ours is NOW> “JUDGMENT BEGINS AT THE HOUSE OF GOD”> IMO
peace and love to you all…………………………………….gene
Hi Gene:
I will post a couple of scriptures that may help you to understand this:
Quote 1 Peter 1:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Quote Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Quote 1 Th 1:3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Quote
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 09 2011,00:33) Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, verse 27 …> But a certain fearful looking for of Judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (satans).
Hi Gene,Thanks for Proving we have a “Free Will”!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo all,
According to Jewish thought on the word of God is that man has both an inclination to do evil, yetzer ra, and an inclination to do good, yetzer tov.
I know nothing about the yetzer tov being mentioned in scripture. It could be some strange teaching the crept in or it may be I am not understanding its connection with its synomyns in scripture.
I believe the yetzer ra is called flesh, old man, and perhaps other thing by Paul in his letters. I call it the corrupt spirit of man.
Jesus calls the yetzer ra an enslavement to sin as does Paul.
If you are interested in learning more about the thought processes of Jews then here is more about the dual nature of human beings and the scripture that support it.
The Jews are teaching the condition of men that are not contracted in the new covenant. Thus it gives us an idea of our state before entering the new covenant.
These teachings like any other need to be tested according to the spirit of God.
Gene, I think it means that we change and do Gods will and not our own.
There is a difference.
Gods will won't mean fussing over what color curtains to buy, or when the next holiday overseas will be, or what brand of television to get, or where our future will be in thirty years time.
To truly believe we would live our whole life to God, do Gods will, and also we wouldn't sin anymore.
But, Children of God are Children of God,
even if they do misbehave now and then.My opinion.
To truly die with Christ means to strife to do away with sin. Even so sin is not imputed to us, we still do sin in this flesh….Paul tells us that He does what He is not to do, and doesn't do what He suppose to do….I believe that our Spirit is willing, but our flesh is weak….Christ is the ransom which He paid for our sins, and by Faith we are saved through Jesus Christ….If Christ would not have died for us, or sinned, we would forever be lost….Paul also tells us, that He dies daily…. Sin feels good, but the consequences does not. Because Gods Holy Spirit lives in us, it is a constant battle. To have patience and wait on God is not easy, and we struggle to stay above water…but in Christ we will be victorious…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Baker @ Feb. 09 2011,18:34) To truly die with Christ means to strife to do away with sin. Even so sin is not imputed to us, we still do sin in this flesh….Paul tells us that He does what He is not to do, and doesn't do what He suppose to do….I believe that our Spirit is willing, but our flesh is weak….Christ is the ransom which He paid for our sins, and by Faith we are saved through Jesus Christ….If Christ would not have died for us, or sinned, we would forever be lost….Paul also tells us, that He dies daily…. Sin feels good, but the consequences does not. Because Gods Holy Spirit lives in us, it is a constant battle. To have patience and wait on God is not easy, and we struggle to stay above water…but in Christ we will be victorious…
Peace and Love Irene
I agree with that Irene.To all,
I have read more about the two natures of man and the idea that the Hebrew word “vayyitzer”, translated to the English word “formed”, in Genesis 2:7 has two yods. It is inferred from this unusual spelling that the two yods stand for the word “yetzer” or “impulse”.
These two yetzer's battle against one enother much like what Paul describes in Roman's 7. The Holy Spirit sets us free from this battle
Irene,
Scripture declares we will succeed in doing away with sin if we strive through faith to defeat it. It is just one more miracle that Jesus performs by the power of God. But in order to defeat sin through faith you must believe you will defeat it. Your faith is not in your own power but rather in the power of God who created the universe and thus can change you so you no longer follow the human impulse to do evil.
Take the plunge and believe that God will overcome your sinful impulses and thus you will become fully mature in the Anointed One.
God is the artist and you are his work of art. He will finish with you when he determines that the time is correct. Believe and persevere in that belief as he can and will stop you from falling.
Faith is a tool that can move mountains, especially the ones Satan places in your path.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2011,19:54) To all, I have read more about the two natures of man and the idea that the Hebrew word “vayyitzer”, translated to the English word “formed”, in Genesis 2:7 has two yods. It is inferred from this unusual spelling that the two yods stand for the word “yetzer” or “impulse”.
These two yetzer's battle against one enother much like what Paul describes in Roman's 7. The Holy Spirit sets us free from this battle
Kerwin and all,Shepherd of Hermas
(Footnote; Concerning the position of The Shepherd throughout the history of the Church there can be no dispute as to the widespread popularity of the book, especially among the early Christian believers. The Shepherd has been called “one of the most popular Christian texts in the first centuries of the Church.”)
Sixth Commandment
How to recognise the two spirits attendant on each Man, and how to distinguish the suggestions of the one from those of the other.CHAPTER I.
“I gave you,” he said, “directions in the first commandment to attend to faith, and fear, and self-restraint.” “Even so, sir,” said I. And he said, “Now I wish to show you the powers of these, that you may know what power each possesses. For their powers are double, and have relation alike to the righteous and the unrighteous. Trust you, therefore, the righteous, but put no trust in the unrighteous. For the path of righteousness is straight, but that of unrighteousness is crooked. But walk in the straight and even way, and mind not the crooked. For the crooked path has no roads, but has many pathless places and stumbling-blocks in it, and it is rough and thorny. It is injurious to those who walk therein. But they who walk in the straight road walk evenly without stumbling, because it is neither rough nor thorny. You see, then, that it is better to walk in this road.” “I wish to go by this road,” said I. “You will go by it,” said he; “and whoever turns to the Lord with all his heart will walk in it.”
CHAPTER II.
“Hear now,” said he, “in regard to faith. There are two angels with a man–one of righteousness, and the other of iniquity.” And I said to him, “How, sir, am I to know the powers of these, for both angels dwell with me?” “Hear,” said he, and “understand them. The angel of righteousness is gentle and modest, meek and peaceful. When, therefore, he ascends into your heart, forthwith he talks to you of righteousness, purity, chastity, contentment, and of every righteous deed and glorious virtue. When all these ascend into your heart, know that the angel of righteousness is with you. These are the deeds of the angel of righteousness. Trust him, then, and his works. Look now at the works of the angel of iniquity. First, he is wrathful, and bitter, and foolish, and his works are evil, and ruin the servants of God. When, then, he ascends into your heart, know him by his works.” And I said to him, “How, sir, I shall perceive him, I donor know.” “Hear and understand” said he. “When anger comes upon you, or harshness, know that he is in you; and you will know this to be the case also, when you are attacked by a longing after many transactions, and the richest delicacies, and drunken revels, and divers luxuries, and things improper, and by a hankering after women, and by overreaching, and pride, and blustering, and by whatever is like to these. When these ascend into your heart, know that the angel of iniquity is in you. Now that you know his works, depart from him, and in no respect trust him, because his deeds are evil, and unprofitable to the servants of God. These, then, are the actions of both angels. Understand them, and trust the angel of righteousness; but depart from the angel of iniquity, because his instruction is bad in every deed. For though a man be most faithful, and the thought of this angel ascend into his heart, that man or woman must sin. On the other hand, be a man or woman ever so bad, yet, if the works of the angel of righteousness ascend into his or her heart, he or she must do something good. You see, therefore, that it is good to follow the angel of righteousness, but to bid farewell to the angel of iniquity.
“This commandment exhibits the deeds of faith, that you may trust the works of the angel of righteousness, and doing them you may live to God. But believe the works of the angel of iniquity are hard. If you refuse to do them, you will live to God.”
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2011,18:05) Irene, Scripture declares we will succeed in doing away with sin if we strive through faith to defeat it. It is just one more miracle that Jesus performs by the power of God. But in order to defeat sin through faith you must believe you will defeat it. Your faith is not in your own power but rather in the power of God who created the universe and thus can change you so you no longer follow the human impulse to do evil.
Take the plunge and believe that God will overcome your sinful impulses and thus you will become fully mature in the Anointed One.
God is the artist and you are his work of art. He will finish with you when he determines that the time is correct. Believe and persevere in that belief as he can and will stop you from falling.
Faith is a tool that can move mountains, especially the ones Satan places in your path.
Kerwin! I agree that those who stay close to Jesus, will succeed,
However there are those who will not, and follow Satan right into the Lake of Fire……Otherwise there is no sense in having a Lake of Fire is there?
Just like I don't believe that all Commandments have been nailed on the cros, like Tim Kraft is teaching…..And the New Age religion too…..Jesus gave us that Great Commandment and also magnified the Law on the Sermon on the Mount…..I find it foolish to believe that on one hand Jesus gave us the Great Commandments and on the other hand He nailed it on the cross……You say take the plunge and believe….My friend I would not even talk this way, or care about this, if I would still not know….However, if you believe that you have completely overcome sin, watch out, Satan is at you feet…be humble instead, kind, loving and caring…..in this there is no Law….Peace and Love Irene
EDJ…………That willful expression has nothing to do with a FREE will. But that is on another thread not this one. (EXACTLY) what it means to die with CHRIST, are we (NOW) Expected to walk PERFECTLY in EVER thing we do. And if we don't then WHAT Takes PLACE?. Think about it and come back and give us you opinions. Stay focused on this, (dying with Christ) and nothing else Brother.
peace and love…………………………….gene
Shimmer ………Good post, but i would replace the Angel thing with Spirit but either way it follows the same line Sis.
peace and love……………………………………….gene
Kerwin ………What i believe you have right is that we are (NOW) expected to BECOME and get rid of ALL Sin and this is accomplished by putting our Wills to death as Jesus did His will. Also i want to know what you think about being cast into FIRE (NOW) Not “LATER” for our (converted Christians) Present SINS. Is what Jesus said regarding being cast into fire a METAPHOR of a PRESENT STATE FOR UNREPENTANT SINS. Because if a Sin is unrepentant-ed of “THE WORM” is not dead and His punishment (fiery trial) must then continue UNTIL 'THE WORM DIES”. Kerwin think about this and, I have come to believe that we (NOW) are Being JUDGED and we NOW are being afflicted for our sins as GOD is Purging them out of US though pain , sickness and and even death in some cases, all kinds of indefinites and affections . I used to think that would take place later but have come to see it takes place NOW Not later in those GOD is WORKING WITH. Your thoughts brother. There are many scriptures that come to mind but i am not going to post them yet.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 10 2011,08:53) Kerwin ………What i believe you have right is that we are (NOW) expected to BECOME and get rid of ALL Sin and this is accomplished by putting our Wills to death as Jesus did His will. Also i want to know what you think about being cast into FIRE (NOW) Not “LATER” for our (converted Christians) Present SINS. Is what Jesus said regarding being cast into fire a METAPHOR of a PRESENT STATE FOR UNREPENTANT SINS. Because if a Sin is unrepentant-ed of “THE WORM” is not dead and His punishment (fiery trial) must then continue UNTIL 'THE WORM DIES”. Kerwin think about this and, I have come to believe that we (NOW) are Being JUDGED and we NOW are being afflicted for our sins as GOD is Purging them out of US though pain , sickness and and even death in some cases, all kinds of indefinites and affections . I used to think that would take place later but have come to see it takes place NOW Not later in those GOD is WORKING WITH. Your thoughts brother. There are many scriptures that come to mind but i am not going to post them yet. peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Gene, maybe it is seperation from God, which sin does. We know that to have God as our strength is good. To be seperate from God isn't good. We are then all alone. If you know what I mean.To all,
I disagree that we presently are presently cast into the final fire. Those who believe are being purefied by the fire of the Spirit of Holyness. On the other hand those who do not believe remain under the wrath of God.
Shimmer brought up a good point and that is that sin seperates us from God while Jesus brings us close by sealing God's promise that we will stop sinning if we believe and persevere in that belief. In believing God's promise we are considered to have already recieved the promised righteousness as God will give what he promised to us. So even though we are not yet completly mature in Christ we are credited with righteousness.
Since we believe God will use his cleansing fire to refine from our brittle iron an imposssibly high strength steel.
What is imposible with man is possible for God.
Believe for God gives good things to those who ask, seek, and take the plunge.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 10 2011,01:34) Shimmer ………Good post, but i would replace the Angel thing with Spirit but either way it follows the same line Sis. peace and love……………………………………….gene
Gene,I tend to believe angel is a mistranslation of spirit as what is described sounds more like a spirit than an angel. Shimmer may agree since she used it in regards to the tenet of two impulses of man.
Quote (Baker @ Feb. 10 2011,06:08) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2011,18:05) Irene, Scripture declares we will succeed in doing away with sin if we strive through faith to defeat it. It is just one more miracle that Jesus performs by the power of God. But in order to defeat sin through faith you must believe you will defeat it. Your faith is not in your own power but rather in the power of God who created the universe and thus can change you so you no longer follow the human impulse to do evil.
Take the plunge and believe that God will overcome your sinful impulses and thus you will become fully mature in the Anointed One.
God is the artist and you are his work of art. He will finish with you when he determines that the time is correct. Believe and persevere in that belief as he can and will stop you from falling.
Faith is a tool that can move mountains, especially the ones Satan places in your path.
Kerwin! I agree that those who stay close to Jesus, will succeed,
However there are those who will not, and follow Satan right into the Lake of Fire……Otherwise there is no sense in having a Lake of Fire is there?
Just like I don't believe that all Commandments have been nailed on the cros, like Tim Kraft is teaching…..And the New Age religion too…..Jesus gave us that Great Commandment and also magnified the Law on the Sermon on the Mount…..I find it foolish to believe that on one hand Jesus gave us the Great Commandments and on the other hand He nailed it on the cross……You say take the plunge and believe….My friend I would not even talk this way, or care about this, if I would still not know….However, if you believe that you have completely overcome sin, watch out, Satan is at you feet…be humble instead, kind, loving and caring…..in this there is no Law….Peace and Love Irene
Irenethe law Christ nailed on the cross was the the condemnation of the law,
that Christ sacrifice removed so that we can be saved without the law.but we most become slaves in Christ to do good and have that faith that will save us.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 10 2011,18:23) Quote (Baker @ Feb. 10 2011,06:08) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2011,18:05) Irene, Scripture declares we will succeed in doing away with sin if we strive through faith to defeat it. It is just one more miracle that Jesus performs by the power of God. But in order to defeat sin through faith you must believe you will defeat it. Your faith is not in your own power but rather in the power of God who created the universe and thus can change you so you no longer follow the human impulse to do evil.
Take the plunge and believe that God will overcome your sinful impulses and thus you will become fully mature in the Anointed One.
God is the artist and you are his work of art. He will finish with you when he determines that the time is correct. Believe and persevere in that belief as he can and will stop you from falling.
Faith is a tool that can move mountains, especially the ones Satan places in your path.
Kerwin! I agree that those who stay close to Jesus, will succeed,
However there are those who will not, and follow Satan right into the Lake of Fire……Otherwise there is no sense in having a Lake of Fire is there?
Just like I don't believe that all Commandments have been nailed on the cros, like Tim Kraft is teaching…..And the New Age religion too…..Jesus gave us that Great Commandment and also magnified the Law on the Sermon on the Mount…..I find it foolish to believe that on one hand Jesus gave us the Great Commandments and on the other hand He nailed it on the cross……You say take the plunge and believe….My friend I would not even talk this way, or care about this, if I would still not know….However, if you believe that you have completely overcome sin, watch out, Satan is at you feet…be humble instead, kind, loving and caring…..in this there is no Law….Peace and Love Irene
Irenethe law Christ nailed on the cross was the the condemnation of the law,
that Christ sacrifice removed so that we can be saved without the law.but we most become slaves in Christ to do good and have that faith that will save us.
Pierre
Yes, Pierre! I believe that too. But what Kerwin was saying that all of the Law was done away with by Christ's scarifies, and that I don't believe at all. It is the Animal Scarifies that He did away with, and became our perfect Scarifies…he is now our Mediator to go through Him directly to do Throne of God, no more animal Sacrifices needed…..
Peace and Love IreneTo all……….So when Jesus said “IF THY EYE OFFEND (PREVENT) you cast it from you for it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of GOD with one eye then to be cast into the Fire (NOW), where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched (put out)> Here is my take on this, i believe we are cast into the Fire (NOW) if we do not remove anything that is preventing us (NOW)> Because there “REMAINS NO MORE “SACRIFICE” FOR SINS, AFTER WE COME INTO THE knowledge OF THE TRUTH. Now because there remains no more “SACRIFICE” for those who are true Christians then Judgment is NOW EXTRACTED on us. If we do not repent of our Sins (NOW) we are cast into the FIRE and as long as that sin remains the Fire (intense Judgment ) does not stop or quenched. WE Must repent or will remain in this intense Judgment state (NOW) not later. This is the JUDGMENT that starts at the house of GOD. MANY Christians CONTINUE TO BE SICK AND INFIRM BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THIS JUDGMENT (now) and as a result of not repenting they continue to suffer. Some even Die because they do not cease from sinning. IMO
1 Cor 11:29……> For he that eats and drinks unworthily eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30…> For this reason many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31..> For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged 32….> But when we are judged, we are (Chastened) of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
This Chastisement takes place (NOW) in a Christians life. If they do not repent they are cast into a fiery or intense Judgment (Now) > I believe what Jesus was saying in the Metaphor was we need cast away any thing that prevents us from us is a Present state and this worm (cause of the sin) that can be in us must die or we are NOW cast into a Fiery Judgment and as long as that state exists in a true Christians life, the Fire, intense Judgments will not cease or be Quenched. IMO
peace and love to you all…………………gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
