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Hi,
Truly Jesus was a son of man, a son of Mary and a son of Adam.
And like us is a vessel for God's Spirit.2Tim 2
“20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. “
We can follow him.
Quote Jesus had to be human for many reasons — 1. Jesus had to be a man to be the second Adam. He fullfilled that which Adam failed to accompolish. He again achieved dominion over the earthly realm.
2. Jesus had to be a man, born into the human family, so that he could be the human heir of the throne of David.
3. Jesus had to be a man so that he could be “touched by a feeling of our infirmities — yet without sin.” Jesus is a “sympathetic high priest” He understands our problems and is therefore able to help those in need.
4. Jesus had to be a man so that he could be the “son of Man” — In the New American Standard Bible, Jesus is called “Son of Man” 97 times.
5. Jesus had to be a man so that he could establish the pattern for the rest of humanity. Jesus was the first human being to fullfill God’s plan.” By acknowledging Jesus’ full humanity, we show proff that human nature is indeed “very good” as God put it after creating the first man.
6. Jesus had to be a man to prove that perfected humanity is possible. He is the perfect example of what accompolishments are possible for all humanity.
Did Jesus have a will of his own? John 5/30 … I (Jesus) do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me…. This verse indicates that Jesus had a choice to seek His own will or that of the Father’s.
Matthew 26/39 ….. Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Again Jesus had his own will but refused to let it overshadow what God wanted and willed.Did Jesus have a soul? Matthew 26/38… My (Jesus) soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death….
So now we have proven that Jesus was made up of a human body, soul, spirit and will. Since it is clear that Jesus is made up of these parts, we have to ask ourselves, what part is God? This sounds like a complete human being to me!
Hey music4two
Im with you so far about the Soul and Body of Jesus which I agree is fully man! But where have you shown me his Spirit?
For it would be the Spirit of Christ, the Word that was made flesh, the Word that was with God and the Word that was God that would make him Divine. There is no scriptural evidence that the eternal Spirit of Christ had a beginning, but in fact all things were made by him and for him and without him was not anything made that was made and HE upholds all things by the word of his power and by him all things consist.
Now unless you want to make claim that the Human Jesus that you speak of was created and made deity, then I submit that no man could be the essence by which and through which all of creation was created. And if what you are saying is true, then God the Father made another God.
Its real simple there is the creator by whom all things were created and there is the created.
God and creation. Nothing else! Then there is Jesus, God in the flesh reconciling the world to himself!
Quote Nothing in the “New Testament” was ever meant to be read out of context, by people from another culture ignorant of the Hebrew history and the meaning to the words and the concepts behind them, and replacing this with their own personal meaning. Nor were any of the “New Testament” documents ever meant to stand on their own, apart from being interpreted in the context of the “Hebrew” Old Testament. Furthermore, the men who wrote the bible were Hebrew. They thought and wrote as Hebrews. Even when writing in Greek the ways in which these Hebrew men thought influinced what they wrote. I believe the word is our safety and can be relied on to be a surer word of prophecy. When faced with the desire to describe and understand the nature of God, I believe it is a safety to use scriptural terms to describe God.
The truth is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. In fact the truth can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.music4two
I almost agree. Except you make it sound like that in the 66 books that we have that we can know **everything** about the magnificent God that we serve!
If this were true we wouldnt need the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us into all truth.
In fact the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Jesus said in Jn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John the beloved said in Jn 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Quote Deut 4:6
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 97 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human)Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.Hebrews 4/15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
According to scripture man is created in the image of God. (Gen 1/27) This being true, Jesus is a man, according to the following scripture.
2 Corinthians 4:4 — The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.No where is scripture is the point of Jesus’ humanity more heart felt then prior to his crucifition. His experiences and feelings in the garden clearly show a human being in anguish over what was ask of him. Those prayers are recorded in Matthew 26:36-46, Mark 14:32-42, and Luke 22:39-46. Jesus knew he was to be betrayed and knew it would lead to his death. He endured this because of the joy set before him, but had a real and understandable human emotional response to his future death. In various translations these words and phrases are used: “exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death”; “crushed with horror and sadness to the point of death”; “terrible pain and agony”; “…heart ready to break with grief”; “sadness and distress came over him”; “soul overwhelmed with sorrow”; “grief and anguish came over him.”
Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)John 12:44 thru 46
44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(Co-equal?)1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(Co-equal?)1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(Co-equal?)Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(Co-equal?)Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(Co-equal?)Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (Notice scripture makes a point to show Jesus as a man)There is one thrown in heaven. On that thrown sits the human Jesus Christ. When we see him we will see the glory of the Father revealed in the face of Jesus.
music4two
Amen to all of these scriptures. But I still dont see any evidence here that he was the **created ** Word, or created Spirit of Christ. Again its real simple… there is the one by whom **all** things were created(unless Christ created himself), and there is the created.
So I still dont see any proof here that Jesus was not divine.
I Cor 1:19-21 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.II Cor 11 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
I like your dissertation on the humanity of Christ though!Hi W,
Jesus was reborn from above and filled with the Holy Spirit.
That was not His spirit.The spirit of man exists with the Holy Spirit in the sons of God.
Rom 8
“16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,”Indeed unless men have the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, they are not of him, and true sons of God are led by that Spirit.
Rom 8
” 9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.Rom 8
“13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
Jesus lost his own spirit at calvary as we all do at death.
Mt 27
” 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit”.But the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, did not leave him.
Acts 2
” 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' “and that Spirit was poured out for his brethren.
acts 2
” 32″This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.33″Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. “
Quote Jesus was reborn from above and filled with the Holy Spirit.
That was not His spirit.Really then who was it that was with God in the beginning?
And also show me where scripture uses the term for Jesus being reborn from above?
Good night Nick!
Quote Jesus lost his own spirit at calvary as we all do at death. Sorry NH
But I dont believe Jesus lost anything.:(
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2006,07:35) Quote Jesus was reborn from above and filled with the Holy Spirit.
That was not His spirit.Really then who was it that was with God in the beginning?
And also show me where scripture uses the term for Jesus being reborn from above?
Good night Nick!
Hi W,
The Word, the beloved monogenes Son of God, the image of God Himself was with God in the beginning and was sent into the world.Jesus was baptised with water and the Spirit being filled with that Spirit in the Jordan. We can follow him.
Lk 3
“1Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,”
Matt 3
” 13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Mk 1
” 9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2006,07:38) Quote Jesus lost his own spirit at calvary as we all do at death. Sorry NH
But I dont believe Jesus lost anything.:(
Hi W,
You may not.
But scripture says this.
Matt 27
” 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”It had to happen
Jn 12
“John 12:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit”
and for us
Rom 6
“3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Quote (music4two @ Nov. 23 2006,01:49) … There is one throne in heaven. On that throne sits the human Jesus Christ. … music4two, I must congratulate you on a truly excellent exegesis on the man Christ Jesus [1 Tim 2.5]
I agree with everything except for the statement above.
Indeed there is ONE throne in Heaven, the throne of Almighty GOD.
The Lord Jesus however is depicted as being at the right hand of GOD,
and at the right hand of the throne of GOD;
i.e. the Messiah is depicted as being in the most exalted position second only to Almighty GOD Himself.- (Heb 8:1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
- (Heb 12:2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
However Christ is yet to be enthroned on his own throne; GOD promised him, the throne of David, as spoken by the OT prophets. When GOD sends Christ back from Heaven [Acts 3.21], Christ will THEN indeed be enthroned … he will sit on his own throne, the throne of his glory.
- (Isa 9:7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YAHWEH of hosts will perform this.
- (Ezek 21:26-27) Thus saith the Lord YAHWEH; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. 27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
- (Luke 1:32-33) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
- (Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
- (Mat 19:28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Right now, the Book of Revelation depicts GOD Almighty upon the throne, whilst the Lamb of GOD is in the midst of the throne alongside the 4 beasts & the 24 elders.
When John was given a vision of Heaven it was very similar to the vision that Ezekiel depicted in Ezekiel Chap. 1.
The main difference is that there is indeed a risen immortalized human being now in Heaven, the man Messiah Jesus.In Ezekiel's vision, Ezekiel saw an appearance/similitude which depicted Almighty GOD upon His throne [Ezek. 1:26-28]
- (Ezek 1:26-28) And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of YAHWEH. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Now compare this with the appearance/similitude that John saw which depicts Almighty GOD upon His Throne.
- (Rev 4:2-4) And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
- (Rev 4:6) … and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
See the similarity?
Now, where is the Lamb of GOD?
- (Rev 5:6-7) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
- (Rev 7:10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
- (Rev 7:17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne …
Now I know that the Book of Revelation is a very symbolic book, hence, we have a Lamb with 7 eyes, etc.
However, it ought to be clear that the Book of Revelation solely depicts GOD upon His Throne [4.9-11, 7.10, 19.4, 21.5, etc]; and the Lamb alongside or in the midst of GOD's throne.Now, remember we will not see the face of Jesus in Heaven! Why? Because Jesus is coming here to earth to inaugurate GOD's Kingdom upon the earth. It is at Christ's Coming/Parousia, that we will see Christ's glorious face.
Christ is not doing an U-turn, he is coming back to earth.
He shall return!
(Luke 19:11ff; 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.. Compare Dan 7.13-14)It is at his return in the regeneration that he will be enthroned on the throne of his glory [Matt 19.28]; in like manner, the righteous saints will be rewarded and be given authority over the nations in the Kingdom of GOD [Rev 2.26-27, Luke 19.17,19]; they shall reign with him upon the earth. [2 Tim 2.12, 1 Cor 6.2, Rev 5.9-10]
Christ will reign over the earth from the Capital City of GOD's Kingdom, Jerusalem; upon the throne of David, in fulfillment of all the prophecies.
There is of course, Rev 3.21
- (Rev 3:21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
However, it does not mean that Christ literally sits on GOD's throne with GOD anymore than all the myriads of overcomers are going to literally sit on Christ's throne with Christ!
Matt 19.28 gives us a concrete example of what Christ means.
Just as Christ is highly exalted and shares in the authority, power and glory which GOD his Father has given him;
likewise in the resurrection, the 12 disciples as well as all the saints, will in like manner, share in the authority, power and glory, of Christ's reign in the Kin
gdom of GOD;
they shall reign with him; but note, the 12 disciples will sit on their own thrones! Are the twelve, not overcomers? Yes they are! However the 12 will not be sitting with Christ literally, i.e. all the 12 + Christ on ONE throne. No! They sit with Christ in his throne by sharing in his reign and glory, in ruling with him.
The same goes for all the righteous resurrected saints in the Regeneration.So, Almighty GOD is GOD alone; therefore, Almighty GOD alone sits upon the throne; nothing has changed in that regard!
Christ, GOD's human Son; shares in His authority & glory; so in that sense he is set down with the Father in His throne.
Hence that is why the NT always speaks of him as being at the right hand of GOD, and at the right hand of the throne of GOD.However, we have to wait for Christ's return.
THEN we shall see the human Jesus Christ enthroned;
THEN we shall see the glory of the Father revealed in the face of Jesus!
There will be one throne of David in Jerusalem. On that throne will sit the human Jesus Christ.music4two, hope this post clarifies
PS See also http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/11/blog-post.html
Yes! Great post music4two but just as Adam Pastor said all except the “one” thrown. Unless the Thrown is like a church pew LOL!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2006,06:24) Quote Jesus had to be human for many reasons — 1. Jesus had to be a man to be the second Adam. He fullfilled that which Adam failed to accompolish. He again achieved dominion over the earthly realm.
2. Jesus had to be a man, born into the human family, so that he could be the human heir of the throne of David.
3. Jesus had to be a man so that he could be “touched by a feeling of our infirmities — yet without sin.” Jesus is a “sympathetic high priest” He understands our problems and is therefore able to help those in need.
4. Jesus had to be a man so that he could be the “son of Man” — In the New American Standard Bible, Jesus is called “Son of Man” 97 times.
5. Jesus had to be a man so that he could establish the pattern for the rest of humanity. Jesus was the first human being to fullfill God’s plan.” By acknowledging Jesus’ full humanity, we show proff that human nature is indeed “very good” as God put it after creating the first man.
6. Jesus had to be a man to prove that perfected humanity is possible. He is the perfect example of what accompolishments are possible for all humanity.
Did Jesus have a will of his own? John 5/30 … I (Jesus) do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me…. This verse indicates that Jesus had a choice to seek His own will or that of the Father’s.
Matthew 26/39 ….. Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Again Jesus had his own will but refused to let it overshadow what God wanted and willed.Did Jesus have a soul? Matthew 26/38… My (Jesus) soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death….
So now we have proven that Jesus was made up of a human body, soul, spirit and will. Since it is clear that Jesus is made up of these parts, we have to ask ourselves, what part is God? This sounds like a complete human being to me!
Hey music4two
Im with you so far about the Soul and Body of Jesus which I agree is fully man! But where have you shown me his Spirit?
For it would be the Spirit of Christ, the Word that was made flesh, the Word that was with God and the Word that was God that would make him Divine. There is no scriptural evidence that the eternal Spirit of Christ had a beginning, but in fact all things were made by him and for him and without him was not anything made that was made and HE upholds all things by the word of his power and by him all things consist.
Now unless you want to make claim that the Human Jesus that you speak of was created and made deity, then I submit that no man could be the essence by which and through which all of creation was created. And if what you are saying is true, then God the Father made another God.
Its real simple there is the creator by whom all things were created and there is the created.
God and creation. Nothing else! Then there is Jesus, God in the flesh reconciling the world to himself!
Let me answer several replies in one format. Here is a scripture detailing the HUMAN SPIRIT of Jesus.Luke 23/46 …. Crying out with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father into your hands I commit MY spirit. With these words he gave up his spirit……. It clearly says “MY” spirit. Because He was speaking to the Father, He could not have meant the Holy Spirit. That would make no sence. That would make the scripture say :Father into your hands I commit your spirit”
Jesus was made like His brethren in all ways. Not in all ways but His Spirit. Again as stated before if you change the makeup of Jesus by augmenting his body, soul, spirit or will you make Jesus non-human and he could never fullfill all the prophecies pertaining to his human herritage and he could never be an example for us of normal humanity.
Much has been said about the Term “Word” in John 1. Unfortunately it is often missinterpreted because of a preconcieved idea of it being interchangable with the name Jesus. It is not.
We of the Greek thinking culture often want to see literal interpretations of things. We do not as easily think in a concrete or an alegorical manner. Trying to understand something written by Hebrews and from a Hebrew standpoint and then filtering it thru our Greek thinking always leads to problems. This becomes an even bigger problem when we start out with a preconcieved idea of doctrine then try to find scripture to fit into it. This is one reason why there is missunderstanding of John Chapter 1.
Two verses in particular are hard to understand from a Greek thinking perspective.
Verse 1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Verse 14 – And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Is the term “Word” used here literally refering to the person of Jesus Christ? Yes and no! I will explain in a bit.
From the beginning Yahweh had a plan to redeem mankind. This description of God’s idea or plan was expressed as the Greek word Logos which was then translated into the term “word” in John Chapter 1. The actual definition of word, according to Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words is…. ( a word) as encompassing an idea, a statement, a speech, not the mere name of an object….. In there treatise on the subject they list dozens of scriptures where Logos is used in the above mentioned way. Then as a secondary meaning they use the scriptures in John 1/1 thru 18 and form a completely different meaning then all the rest of scripture. Is that honest? Where did that come from? It was simply made up. An illusion, a myth, promoted to make up evidence to support a false doctrine.
The New Bible Dictionary, which has a clear trinitarian bias, defines Logos as… “a meaningfull discourse, declaration, discourse, subject matter, doctrine, affair, reason , cause, sake and respect. As a gramatical term it means a finite sentence., in logic a factual statement, definition or judgement, in rhetoric a correctly constructed piece of oratory.” Even Trinitarian sources cannot get away from the history of the Trinity and the true meaning of Logos. They even admit that the Logos = Christ doctrine came sometime after the gospels were pened and that scholars have varrying views of the meaning of Logos in this context. Granted this is a difficult scriptural passage to understand, but the definition of Logos is very clear and without doubt. We cannot ignor the definition in order to maintain a traditional meaning for this passage.
Perhaps the best way to describe Logos is as the motives or intentions of God. Jesus was what God intended to create with Adam. Think of the Logos as the blueprint and Jesus as the building. God’s heart, character, motives and intentions are all sumed up in Jesus. In verse 1 The blueprint was with God. That is simple enough. God had an intention and a motive for that intention from the beginning. And the intention or motive was God. This too when seen from Hebrew thinking makes sence.
The word logos is used in many scriptures and always means the same, as example; Luke 7/7 …for this reason I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you, but just say the word (your intention, logos) and my servant will be healed……..
Further understanding is made in Revelation 1/2 and again in 1/9 John shows a distinction between The Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. ….. who bore witness of the word ( motiv
e or intention, Logos) of God AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ….. John lists them separately showing a clear distinction between them. This is the same author who wrote the book of John. It seems he is making clear what he wrote in John 1. In other words John says he bore witness to God’s motive and intention for the Messiah and (in addition to) bore witness to the life and testimony of the messiah/Jesus himself. The literal Greek says, “who bore witness of the word of the God and the witness of Jesus Christ.”The reality of the human, Jesus, fulfilled the motive and intention (logos) for the messiah, but the motive or intention, (logos) is not literally Jesus. A spoken message or expressed idea cannot be a literal person.
What is God’s motive? Love. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not parish but have eternal life.” There is the perfect discription of God’s Logos. His motive is love. His intention is to bring all to eternal life thru His son Jesus Christ. To produce and mature sons like Himself. (As a side note the term “begotten” means to give birth, bring forth or produce. It has absolutely no reference to eternal or preexisting)
So is the term “Word” refering to Jesus?
YES – In that Jesus is the expression of God’s motive (love) and intentions (to make sons). Jesus fullfilled God’s intention to create sons and has within Him the character of God motivated by Love.
NO – In that the motives or intentions of God cannot be literally a person.Jesus was a full and complete human, body, soul and spirit. This is verified again in Hebrews 2/16 and 17. It says in the Complete Jewish Bible …. Both Jesus and the ones being set apart (humanity) have a common origin this is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers. (Jesus recognized their Common human nature) Verse 17 This is why he had to become like His brothers in EVERY RESPECT….. The word BECOME is defined according to Strongs as; to make like, compared or made like. The word “every” means “all, completely, all inclusive”. Jesus was not like his brothers in all but his nature, but in all ways. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus’ full humanity qualified by having a dual nature. On the contrary 100’s of scriptures point to his compleat and full humanity.
According to scripture man is created in the image of God. (Gen 1/27) This being true, Jesus is a man, according to the following scripture.
2 Corinthians 4:4 — The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.If one can step back froma Greek Thinking literal translation and see things from a Hebrew figuritive , concrete way a different meaning for John 1 emerges.
Lets look at John 1 in more detail – Allow me to put the real meanings in these verses and explain them.1In the beginning was the motive and intention or plan, and the motive and intention was with God, and the motive and intention was God.
[Here God is expresed by His motive and expression so in a figuritive sence the intentions and motives are God]2The motive and intention was in the beginning with God.
3All things came into being through God’s motive and intention, and apart from God’s motive and intention nothing came into being that has come into being.
4In God’s motive and intention was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[The context now is the witness of God’s plan by John the Baptist]7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through God’s plan.
8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
[God’s motives (love) and intentions (plan) enlightens every man.]10God’s intention and motive was in the world, and the world was made through God’s intention and motive, and the world did not know God’s intention and motive.
[The next two verses must be seen in the figurative way in which the Hebrews wrote]
11The plan or Jesus came into those who the plan was designed for and they rejected it.
12But as many as received the plan or Jesus, to them God gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in the plans name,
[of course figuritively speaking the name of the plan is Jesus]13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
[Here again, I am going to insert the actual Greek for verse 14. Notice also that the context is again about the Logos or expression of God’s intentions or motives]
14 And the word flesh became and tented in us, And we viewed the Glory of Him, glory as of the only begotten one, beside of Father, full of undeserved kindness and truth.
If one accepts the traditional veiw of “Word” here it seems to say God became a man. However, notice the phrase “Tented in us”. This is not about the literal Christ dweling with us but rather about the expression of God’s plan, motives and intentions being in us! Where do we see the Glory of Christ? In us! Glory just like the only begotten son, full of undeserved kindness and truth. This scripture is detailing that God wants us to have the same character (motives and intentions) as Him. A Logos. In fact the same intention and motive of which Christ is the first fruits.
First understand that in all cultures (expecially Hebrew) it is expected for the father to teach his son how to live. This was God’s intent with His only Begotten son as well. Jesus knew who he was from a young age. He knew who his father was.
Please read the following scriptures and then my comments.
In Luke 2: 41-52 we see the story of Jesus confounding the temple preasts at 12 years old. Several things are clear in this passage. (41 – 42) Jesus was raised in, and followed the Hebrew Customs of the time.
(42 – 50) Jesus had an agenda that went beyond his earthly parentage of Mary or the teaching of Joseph. He was being raised by his real father Yahweh. For this reason he not only astonished the teachers in the Temple but was there to also learn in that he asked questions of them.
When confronted by Mary and Joseph about his absence he states what was obvious to Him. He had to be in His Father’s house! Even they were perplexed by this, but Mary, understanding His herritage hid these things in her heart.
(52) Jesus grew and increased in wisdom and in favor with God and man. He grew up like any normal boy except for the fact that his father (Yahweh) was his father and teacher.
Jesus was an earthly son with a heavenly father. Even the word “begotten” means began. Jesus had a beginning upon his conception in the womb.Did Jesus need parenting and teaching from God? Was He not perfect through all eternity from the beginning?
Hebrews 2: 9 – 11
See several points in these verses –
Jesus was made a little lower then the Angels.
Jesus was crowned with Glory and honor because of the “suffering of death”.
It was fitting for Jesus to bring many to salvation because he was perfected by what he suffered. (11) In this verse scripture shows very clearly those that are sanctified (us) and He who sanctifies (Jesus) are all from one Father and therefore Jesus calls them Brethren. This verse ties it all together as Jesus being Human but begotten by Yahweh and us being of complete human parentage and adopted as heirs and joint heirs with Jesus.Hebrews 5:8 and 9 In the Greek there is no period between verses 8 and 9
Even though Jesus was a son, He learned obediance from the things which he suffered and being made perfect he became the source of all salvation.
Jesus
the man learned obediance and was perfected by the things which He suffered. For this reason he was made the source of all salvation.Consider this also in answer to your question.
Mark 12: 1 thru 9
God plants a vineyard, Israel. He builds a wall of protection around it from the rest of the world. He places vine growers to tend it, the Pharasees and teachers. When time comes for harvest from his land he sends prophets of earthly heritage who are killed. Over and over He sends them and they are ignored and driven out. Finally God sends His own begotten son saying surely they will respect and listen to my own son. The pharasees kill His son.
What will God do? He will destroy the vine growers and put new ones in charge.God had to send His own son to the nation of Israel and it’s leaders. The Isralies might be able to justify the killing of the prophets who showed human weakness and failings, but there could be no excuse for killing God’s own begotten son who showed the perfect revealing of God’s nature to them. Yahweh, being a God of justice now had every right to uterly destroy Israel and it’s leaders. God now had every right to turn to the gentiles to harvest His world.
Acts 17:29
29″Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.The meaning of “nature” in this preceding verse is from the root word “Theos” which means God.
The following verse talks of Jesus being the exact representation of His (Gods) nature. The word “nature” in this passage means substance. Jesus is the exact representation of God’s substance. Not He is of the same substance but represents the substance of God.
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,II Peter 1:4
4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.In this verse we again see God’s plan described. Nature in this verse is from the Greek word, PHUO which means to bring forth or produce. …. so that by them you may become partakers of the divine produce or production.
How do we achieve this production? The same way as Christ. He was filled with the fullness of the deity of God and so are we supposed to be.Ephesians 3:19… And to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
In addition it should be pointed out that often many come to the conclussion that “Word” means Jesus from the scripture in I John 5 verse 7 and 8..
It is necessary to understand the context so go back to verse 6. The verse literaly reads in the Greek manuscripts of 300 AD. “This is the (one) having come through the water and blood, Jesus Christ not in the water only but in the water and the blood. And the Spirit is bearing witness because the Spirit is the truth
7. Because the three are the bearing witness.
8 the three are for one thing
9 If we recieve the witness of men. The witness of God gives is greater, because this is the witness God gives, ther fact he has borne witness concerning his son.This entire context is the Fathers witness of Jesus Christ.
1, Water . (water baptism) The father decends as a dove and says “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased”.
2. The Blood– Christ death and resurection
3. The Spirit– God’s Spirit poured out at pentacost,This is not a witness of the trinity but the Fathers witness and proof of Jesus being His son/messiah
These three proofs also line up with the three major events and feasts in Jewish history. Remember this was written to Jews. They would understand the significance of the Fathers witness of Jesus fullfilling the Feasts He instituted as a sign of the Messiah.
1. The feast of passover. Under the cloud in the water
The exodus from Egypt (baptism)
2. Feast of attonement. The sheeding of Blood/ lamb sacrifice – crucifiction.
The Feast of Pentacost – the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentacost.Verse 8 reads as follows For there are three that bear witness the spirit and the water and the blood and the three for one thing, agreement.
A foot note states in the NAS “A few LATE manuscripts read—
For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one and there are three that bear witness on earth , the spirit , the water, and the blood and these three are in agreement.
The NAS does not include it in the verse because the evidence would not support it being in the original.
Further research shows that there is no manuscript prior to about 1400 that include this section. It is in the Latin Vulgate translated by the Catholic Church. The latin vulgate was used extensively in the translation of the King James Version and was strongly influinced by the pro Catholic King James. There is evidence that King James used his power to coerce the translators to do nothing that would contradict the catholic faith. The earlier manuscripts of Alepf, B, A, Sy and the greek new testament do not include it. These manuscripts are from several hundred years earlier then the 1400’s. The most well respected translators such as Westcott and Hort, Nestle, Augustinius Merk SJ do not include it.The Hebrew Bible does not include it either. It says…
He is the one who came by means of water and blood Yeshua the Messiah. Not with water only but with water and the blood. And the Spirit bears witness, because the spirit is the truth. The spirit the water and the blood and these three are in agreement.Hi m42,
You say
“Perhaps the best way to describe Logos is as the motives or intentions of God.”
Certainly this is the most covenient understanding for those who accept the Biblical Unitarian stance.But two things are apparent.
A Word is unlike a thought or plan as it is something that is spoken into existence. It is not within the being but has been expressed to be outside of that being from whence it came as shown in the verse you quoted
” Luke 7/7 …for this reason I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you, but just SAY THE WORD and my servant will be healed……… “
Legally I cannot be held responsible for what I think of someone, but as soon as I express those thoughts in words I can be. If they are libellous or slanderous then I can be brought to account and suffer the consequences.
Likewise I cannot help build up my brother by thinking kind thoughts about him but if I speak to him or write to him then I can help him.
The second goes with the first in that the WORD can only be WITH GOD if it is outside of God.There are at least three scriptures reinforcing the importance of this fact.
1Jn 1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was WITH the Father, and was manifested unto us;)”
Welcome music4two
Great posts but I am with Adam Pastor on the throne part.
I have done this dance with Nick before in the ‘Conception’ thread – same dance new partner.
Quote From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Greek word λόγος or logos is a word with various meanings. It is often translated into English as “Word” but can also mean thought, speech, meaning, reason, proportion, principle, standard, or logic, among other things.
Almighty YHWH had a plan of salvation. He spoke of this plan through the prophets. Yahshua is the ‘word’ in that he was the plan. He was the one spoken of by the prophets, the one they were all waiting for. He did not exist before his birth in any form. His existance before his birth was as a thought of one to come – one who was to be born 'when the fullness of time was come'.
Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2006,07:38)
Quote
Jesus lost his own spirit at calvary as we all do at death.Sorry NH
But I dont believe Jesus lost anything.:(
Hi W,
You may not.
But scripture says this.
Matt 27
” 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”NH
The word yeilded in Matt 27:50 Is aphiemi 1) to send away
a) to bid going away or depart
1) of a husband divorcing his wife
b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
c) to let go, let alone, let be
It comes from the root Apo 1) of separation
a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, …
b) of separation of a part from the whole
Jesus never lost his Spirit, he simply departed from his Body.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
II Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the LordStick with the scriptures NH.
Hi W,
You say
“Jesus never lost his Spirit, he simply departed from his Body.”So where did this departed spirit go if he was like to us and we follow him?
We do know that he was like to us in all ways except sin.
We are body, soul and spirit.
1Thess 5
” 23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”We know also what happens to our spirit when we die.
Ecc 12
” 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. “We know Jesus died as we do.
Acts 2
” 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: “We know the soul of Christ was not held by Hades or the bosom of Abraham as were the souls of all men who died before him, but he was enlivened in the Spirit of God, which never leaves the sons of God, and his body was not allowed to corrupt.
Acts 2
” 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.”
and living anew in the Spirit he visited those in prison.
1Peter 3
” 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”
Hi m42,
You say.
“If one accepts the traditional veiw of “Word” here it seems to say God became a man.”
Not at all. The divine being , the Word, the Son of God, partook of flesh. God did not come in the flesh but he sent His Son.Hi m42
You say
“Jesus was an earthly son with a heavenly father. Even the word “begotten” means began. Jesus had a beginning upon his conception in the womb. “Surely you are not translating MONOGENES as just BORN?
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