Dual Nature of Christ

[music4two]

The Dual Nature of Christ

One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature.

God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason?

There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ”

This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?

First let us define the term nature from common modern language.
Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions;
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing:
The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament:
The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being.

Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person.

Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.

In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.

Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”

Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?

Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.

God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.

Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.

God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!

There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.

There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.

Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.

Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.

This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.

What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.

Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up o
thers like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?

Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among themselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts?
Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk. But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man… Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!!

What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject.

Matthew 16:19
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18
“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion.

Without the dual nature of Christ, both Trinitarian and Oneness doctrines cannot stand.

[NickHassan]

Hi m4u,
The truth is that Christ was a man. Nothing supernatural that he knew or said or did was in no way related to his own nature. His totally similar to our flesh nature as outer man controlled him just as it does natural man.

From the Jordan God lived in him in the fullness of deity and worked through this glorious vessel. The origins of the inner vessel, the inner man, as the Son of God, were shown to him and he recalled his glory he had with God and which was revisited to him in the presence of witnesses on the mountain.

Only those with spiritual eyes could see beyond the ordinary flesh to his glorious origins and the even more glorious contents of his inner vessel, and nothing has changed.

[Adam Pastor]

AMEN music4two

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

The Dual Nature of Christ One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature. God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason? There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ” This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination? First let us define the term nature from common modern language. Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions; The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing: The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament: The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being. Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person. Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated. In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds. Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him. Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson,  they shall be like wool.” Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so? Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal. God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being. Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite. God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites! There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being. There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd. Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion. Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures. This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us?  We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them. What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it?  Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted  by those whom he so desperately loved. Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus dif ferent, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus? Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among themselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts? Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk.  But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man…  Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!! What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject. Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” Matthew 18:18 “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Without the dual nature of Christ, both Trinitarian and Oneness doctrines cannot stand.

Adam Pastor blesses this totally outragous unscriptural dis·ser·ta·tion.

HMM

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Trintarians have to work backwards when they are challenged from scripture because the platform of their understanding is already laid and it is so fossilised in orthodoxy that it seems only the Spirit can set them free.

It took me 20 years of lonely personal scriptural study and the unravelling of what I had believed from within, by the Teacher, for me to finally know three years ago that I had based my life on falsehood.

I discovered my lonliness was caused by inability to fellowship with God because of my false view of Him. Trinity robs us of fellowship with God's family.

He was patient with me. Please be patient with us as we show you the safer path-scriptural belief.

[music4two]

Thank you all for your comments. I did not intend to do a scriptural disertation on the subject. I know that often times it is easy to use scripture in a dishonest way. I hoped by using simple logic, I might make things more clear.

[music4two]

The Way It All Began

As written in the last chapter the crucial formula for the dual nature cannot logically exist. The questions arises, Where did this stuff come from?

The idea of God being divided into 3 equal but separate persons of God has it's history in many sources. First let us look at the idea of the trinity in ancient history and what well respected historians have said concerning it’s origins.

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”

Alexander Hislop, in his TWO BABYLONS, seems to trace the various ideas of the trinity back to a common heritage. Hislop pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India. He noted that the recognition of the Trinity was “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”. While Hislop was attempting to prove that mankind has always believed in a “trinity”, he also unwittingly shows the pagan origins of the idea of a “trinity”

The trinity is noted in connection with the construction of the Tower of Babel. Diodorus Siculus, in his Bibliotheca, states that in the topmost completed story of the Tower was placed the images of three gods.  

Trinitarians today may argue that the pagan trinities were completely different from the model of the Christian Trinity. But some pagan triads have structures which are surprisingly familiar. For example, the Hindu Trinity:

The conception most closely linked with Vedism and Brahmanism is that of the Hindu Trinity, the Trimurti. ‘The Absolute manifests himself in three persons, Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer’.

-Asiatic Mythology

The Egyptian triad of the sun god was “one god expressed in three persons”. He was known as the “noonday sun” (Ra), “the evening sun” (Tum), and “the dawning sun” (Khepera). The sun god reportedly said, “Lo! I am Khepera at dawn, Ra at high noon, and Tum at eventide”. He was one god in three distinct persons.

Clearly it is not correct to say that the structure of pagan trinities do not resemble the Christian Trinity.

Other ancient cultures also had Trinities to describe their Gods. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods were Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus. In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco.

Historian Will Durant: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”

One of the sources of the doctrine of the Trinity in Christianity is Gnosticism and Dualism.

A one-sentence description of Gnosticism is; A religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the God of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body. Gnostics conjured up the idea that Christ was a spiritual being in a physical shell in order to avoid the concept of him having an “Evil Physical Body of the “Evil physical realm”.

Dualism is a Greek Philosophy that takes gnosticim even farther. It teaches there are two realms, one evil and one holy. Dualists believe that only the transcendental spiritual realm of God like forces is holy. The lower natural earthly realm was considered evil and nothing good could be of that world.

When Christianity spread to the Greek thinking world it was heavily influenced by their philosophies. Many students of Greek philosophy were being saved and as such brought their concepts into the church. As is often the case some so called “scholars”, from this period forward, began to interpret scripture with preconceived ideas of a gnostic or dualistic world. From gnosticim came the concept of Jesus being a separate God from the God of the Old Testament. From Dualism came the concept that Jesus could never be fully of the natural realm or fully human. His humanity needed to be augmented in some way to avoid him being of the evil natural realm.

Dualism was contrary to Hebrew belief and culture. Hebrews thought of all creation as part of the kingdom of God. Because God was infinite they believed that God was an integral part of the physical realm and, in fact, revealed himself thru the natural world. To the Hebrews everything in the natural realm was in the presence of God and He overshadowed everyhing there.

Many early Christian leaders were influenced by Greek thinking.

Clement of Alexandria (150-213 AD), head of one of the early Christian schools, which was heavily influenced by philosophy and gnosticism, admitted that he was opposed by those who still considered philosophy “evil”. He made light of their opposition and said that they were light and “ignorant”. He denounced the “so-called orthodoxy who, like beasts which work from fear, do good works without knowing what they are doing”. But Clement, of course, knew what he was doing. He had a special gnosis (knowledge) that the ignorant “orthodox” did not possess.

Friedrich Ueberweg says that “Gnosticism was the first comprehensive attempt to construct a philosophy of Christianity”. The more flagrant gnostics, such as Cerdo, Cerinthus, Saturninus, and even Marcion, had been expelled from the church. These more flambuoyant gnostics were only the “tip of the iceberg”. There was still a large remnant in the churches, who obviously began developing some philosophical system of Christianity that would compete, so they thought, in the Gentile world.

The apostle Paul was troubled with gnostics, and spoke against those who clung to “falsely-named science” (knowledge or gnosis) (1 Timothy 6.20).
20) Oh Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge (gnosis)
21) which some have professed and gone astray from the faith.
Paul says that gnosis/gnosticism causes a falling away from the faith.

Albrecht Ritschl (1822-89) saw the Trinity doctrine as flagrantly Hellenistic. It had corrupted the Christian message by introducing an alien “layer of metaphysical concepts, derived from the natural philosophy of the Greeks,” and it had nothing to do with early Christianity.

Gnosticism and dualism had a foot in the door in the early church. Many founding fathers fought against it's beliefs and dogmas.
In the third century gnostics and their philosophy would get their greatest boost from the Emperor of Rome himself.

Constantine emperor of Rome had a problem. His kingdom was in turmoil because of strife between different religious factions. He had christians, gnostics, pagans, druids and many more. Constantine solved this problem by merging all these various factions together and forming The Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Following the example of his father and earlier 3rd-century emperors,
Constantine throughout His life was a solar henotheist, believing that the Roman sun god, Sol, was the visible “manifestation” of an invisible “Highest God” {a plural God?} (summus deus), who was the principle behind the universe. Does this sound familiar? This god was thought to be the companion of the Roman emperor.

Constantine's adherence to this faith is evident from his claim of having had a vision of the sun god in 310 while in a grove of Apollo in Gaul.

In 325 AD – Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the Catholic Church and therefore his empire. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that “the Father and the Son are of the same substance” (homoousios). Let me point out that the substance of God is spirit therefor if Jesus is of the same substance then he was spirit and did not live in the flesh and therefor did not really die or be physically raised from the dead.

Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
“Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'.”

The American Academic Encyclopedia states: “Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement.” It is known that many of His former beliefs followed Him into Christianity and that those beliefs strongly influenced the Nicaea council. It is also clear that part of his motives for forming the Holy Roman Catholic Church were to unify his kingdom. It is therefor clear that the council of Nicaea had been called in part to find a way to unify the Roman Empire under a statement of Faith. This council is known for it's Nicaean Creed detailing the doctrine of the Trinity which is the first time God is officially described, in any church document or biblical manuscript, as separated into three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. It was there at Nicaea that the doctrine of the Trinity was rammed through in a Council that was overseen by the Emperor Constantine who, ironically enough, thought of himself as God-incarnate. (Constantine the Sun Worshiper only made an official conversion to “Christianity” on his death bed).

One of the early problems encountered by the followers of the Trinity doctrine was that of the nature of Christ. There are very clear scriptures that state that Jesus was a man. This was a problem because this was contrary to the original Trinity Doctrine that Jesus was a co-equal person of God and of the same substance. Jesus as a man also contradicted dualist who could never accept Jesus as fully human of the lower earthly realm. Future councils had the impossible task of defending the Trinity while at the same time dealing with these contradictions. Since no biblical proof could be found, their answer was to contrive the Dual Nature Doctrine, or 100% God and 100% man concept. This doctrine concludes that Jesus is fully man and Fully God at the same time.

There are no such words as Dual Nature or 100% man and 100% God in scripture. In fact the concept is conspicuously absent in any scriptural form whatsoever. Again we must ask ourslves, Where does this concept come from? Simply put these councils were hard pressed to find an answer to the contradictions found in the Trinity. With this in mind they formulated a doctrine with no scriptural proof and just applied it as truth. They went to the scriptures with this doctrine and applied scriptures out of context. By using unclear scriptures they could twist them to seem to validate their doctrine.

Since there are no clear scriptures to define this dual nature of Christ we must look elsewhere to determine it’s origin and history. This doctrine did not happen overnight, but took years to develop. The result was a cocktail of Irithnial and illogical thought leading to meaningless rhetoric. Let’s look at some of the history, by which this doctrine entered the teaching of the church.

Most of the primary tenants of the dual nature doctrine stem from several councils starting in 325 U.S. These councils were formed for the purpose of denouncing what was believed to be false doctrine and for instituting some central statements defining the faith. Unfortunately, as stated before, Christianity had been corrupted by Paganism and Greek philosophy and the councils reflected this influence. The Nicene council stated that Jesus was fully God in response to the Aryans who believed that Jesus was not God.

The Apollianarians Did not believe that Jesus was fully human, therefore the council of Constantinople (381 U.S.) declared he was fully human.

The Nestorianism group denied that Mary could be called the mother of God. They believed that Mary was only the mother of the human part of Jesus. The resulting belief dictated that there exists two Christ's, one divine and one human. In response to this the council of Effuses (431 U.S.) decreed That the two natures of Jesus are one and cannot be separated.

Many of those present at the Council Of Nicaea were opposed the doctrine of the Trinity. Even after the Nicene Creed, the Trinity was still hotly debated for decades and centuries. As the years passed and the power of the Catholic Church increased, no one dared argue against the established doctrines of the Church. Before long a multitude of non – scriptural practices began to emerge resulting in the dark ages and the inquisiition.

If Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church, then why all the conflicts? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or not be Christians. It was not the established teaching, and when some factions, of the church, influenced by Constantine, tried to make it official, the result was major conflict. Constantine stopped the conflict by banishing those who appeased him and used his power to coerce others into adopting the doctrine.

Constantine the Great unified a tottering empire, reorganized the Roman state, and set the stage for the final victory of his version of Christianity at the end of the 4th century. . In one historic moment, under this ruler of non-Judeo-Christian background and with the influence of paganism and gnosticism, the traditional doctrine of the Trinity is formed.

Since the time of Constantine several councils have had the dubious task of defending the Trinity without any clear scripture evidence for support. Unfortunately, the same holds true today. The explanations of the Trinity and the dual nature have become even more confusing and less logical.

Since the Dark Ages the church has continued to come out of the darkness and lies and has sought to find more truth. When Luther began to teach justification by faith rather then by works it took a long time to come out of the traditional works mentality, but many did come out and the protestant faith was born. 700 years of reformation have followed. An unfortunate truth is that many did not come out of the darkness and have missed out on many blessings and further growth in God. In the time since Luther many who were called heritics, by the extablished doctrinal churches, have endeavored to return to the faith of the apostles that was hidden during the Dark Ages.

Oneness denominations though denying the 3 in 1 trinity still cling to the concept of a dual natured Christ. Many still hold reverence for the Holy Trinity and/or the Dual nature. They refuse to even acknowledge it’s corrupt origins. They choose to live in a myth. These historical facts are very easily verified in any honest search of historical records.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, Trintarians have to work backwards when they are challenged from scripture because the platform of their understanding is already laid and it is so fossilised in orthodoxy that it seems only the Spirit can set them free. It took me 20 years of lonely personal scriptural study and the unravelling of what I had believed from within, by the Teacher, for me to finally know three years ago that I had based my life on falsehood. I discovered my lonliness was caused by inability to fellowship with God because of my false view of Him. Trinity robs us of fellowship with God's family. He was patient with me. Please be patient with us as we show you the safer path-scriptural belief.

Nick

Tell me that you are not serious. You had the Holy Spirit in you for 20 years and you were lonely?

And it took 20 years for you to see a first principle doctrine!

I would hope that the Holy Spirit our teacher does a better job than this in his people, for surely if what you are saying is true for the majority of his sheep, then by this there must have been thousands who had his Spirit and passed into eternity not knowing the truth.

On the other hand I believe that his sheep hear his voice and follow him, and that no man can pluck them out of his hand, and that if it were possible the very elect would be decieved,
but by the promises of Our God and our Savior, the Good Shepherd, Jesus, this is not possible!

Jn 14:21 He said “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.Jn 16: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
His promise is that if we love him then the Father will love us and Jesus will manifest himself to us!

This kind of fellowship with the Father and Jesus is as simple as believing on Jesus and keeping his commandment which is to Love one another!

Jn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 **And ye shall know the truth**, and the truth shall make you free.

The truth will and has made us free. Jesus is the truth.

He who has the Son has the Father and he will be made free!

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Were not the Israelites given the promised land?
How long did it take to become masters of that land in the power of God?
How long before Paul assumed his full ministry after falling from his horse?
Perhaps I am a slow learner, or perhaps others have not yet plumbed the depths?

This first principles are
to seek first the kingdom of God,
to build on the ROCK of scripture and
to lay the cornerstone and then
let God finish the building.

I have started.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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The Way It All Began

music4two

I don’t base my faith on conclusions or theorys derived from dissertations of debate thousands of years ago!
Also what foolishness to think that the trinity had its roots in Babylon before Christ was even born!
You are simply delving in opinion and theory outside of the scriptures therefore leaving your points with no substance!
You attack the Divinity and the Deity of Christ making him a mere man like you or I, and you have NO scriptural evidence for your view of the dual nature of Christ. You speak of this dual natue of Christ like this is some new revelation from God.
Then you blast the trinity as if it came from Babylon or the Asiatic Mythology and the worshipping of a sun god!

Stick to scriptures my friend and the facts.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You say
“Stick to scriptures my friend and the facts”

But Sacred Scripture does not teach trinity.
What gives?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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This first principles are to seek first the kingdom of God, to build on the ROCK of scripture and to lay the cornerstone and then let God finish the building. I have started.

Amen! NH Im rooting for you and hope you are doing the same for me!

[NickHassan]

amen w

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, You say “Stick to scriptures my friend and the facts” But Sacred Scripture does not teach trinity. What gives?

This is your opinion and your interpretation NH!

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Show us then which divinely bible teachers taught about a trinity God.
If we have to read between the lines and cannot learn as little children at the feet of the Master do not expect much change.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, Show us then which divinely bible teachers taught about a trinity God. If we have to read between the lines and cannot learn as little children at the feet of the Master do not expect much change.

NH

Havnt really studied that and if I did I would still not base my faith on it outside of the scriptures!

And how do you know they were Divine unless you were there to witness their fruit?

And how do we know that there wasnt “divinely bible teachers” teaching the trinity. It could be they were put to death and their works were destroyed! Either way we have a more sure Word of prophesy!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
One good way to check if they were divinely inspired apart from the fruit is whether they taught from within scripture. Because Jesus gave us this check.

Jn 16
“13”But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His OWN INITIATIVE, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

15″All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. “

The Spirit of Christ does not teach new things but reveals what is written , including what is written about the future. So those who go beyond scripture are showing they are not in that Spirit.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, One good way to check if they were divinely inspired apart from the fruit is whether they taught from within scripture. Because Jesus gave us this check. Jn 16 “13”But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His OWN INITIATIVE, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15″All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. “ The Spirit of Christ does not teach new things but reveals what is written , including what is written about the future. So those who go beyond scripture are showing they are not in that Spirit.

\

NH

Praise God we finally agree!

And by the way, maybe you should share that with music4two

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Trinity is not taught from within scripture.

[music4two]

Jesus had to be human for many reasons —

1.Jesus had to be a man to be the second Adam. He fullfilled that which Adam failed to accompolish. He again achieved dominion over the earthly realm.

2.Jesus had to be a man, born into the human family, so that he could be the human heir of the throne of David.

3.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be “touched by a feeling of our infirmities — yet without sin.” Jesus is a “sympathetic high priest” He understands our problems and is therefore able to help those in need.

4.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be the “son of Man” — In the New American Standard Bible, Jesus is called “Son of Man” 97 times.

5.Jesus had to be a man so that he could establish the pattern for the rest of humanity. Jesus was the first human being to fullfill God’s plan.” By acknowledging Jesus’ full humanity, we show proff that human nature is indeed “very good” as God put it after creating the first man.  

6. Jesus had to be a man to prove that perfected humanity is possible. He is the perfect example of what accompolishments are possible for all humanity.

Did Jesus have a will of his own? John 5/30 … I (Jesus) do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me…. This verse indicates that Jesus had a choice to seek His own will or that of the Father’s.
Matthew 26/39 ….. Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Again Jesus had his own will but refused to let it overshadow what God wanted and willed.

Did Jesus have a soul? Matthew 26/38… My (Jesus) soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death….

So now we have proven that Jesus was made up of a human body, soul, spirit and will. Since it is clear that Jesus is made up of these parts, we have to ask ourselves, what part is God? This sounds like a complete human being to me!

Nothing in the “New Testament” was ever meant to be read out of context, by people from another culture ignorant of the Hebrew history and the meaning to the words and the concepts behind them, and replacing this with their own personal meaning. Nor were any of the “New Testament” documents ever meant to stand on their own, apart from being interpreted in the context of the “Hebrew” Old Testament. Furthermore, the men who wrote the bible were Hebrew. They thought and wrote as Hebrews. Even when writing in Greek the ways in which these Hebrew men thought influinced what they wrote.

I believe the word is our safety and can be relied on to be a surer word of prophecy. When faced with the desire to describe and understand the nature of God, I believe it is a safety to use scriptural terms to describe God.
The truth is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. In fact the truth can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.

Deut 4:6
 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)

John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 97 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human)

Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 4/15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.

Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

According to scripture man is created in the image of God. (Gen 1/27) This being true, Jesus is a man, according to the following scripture.
2 Corinthians 4:4 — The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

No where is scripture is the point of Jesus’ humanity more heart felt then prior to his crucifition. His experiences and feelings in the garden clearly show a human being in anguish over what was ask of him. Those prayers are recorded in Matthew 26:36-46, Mark 14:32-42, and Luke 22:39-46. Jesus knew he was to be betrayed and knew it would lead to his death. He endured this because of the joy set before him, but had a real and understandable human emotional response to his future death. In various translations these words and phrases are used: “exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death”; “crushed with horror and sadness to the point of death”; “terrible pain and agony”; “…heart ready to break with grief”; “sadness and distress came over him”; “soul overwhelmed with sorrow”; “grief and anguish came over him.”

Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)

John 12:44 thru 46
 44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)

John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(Co-equal?)

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like
the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (Notice scripture makes a point to show Jesus as a man)

There is one thrown in heaven. On that thrown sits the human Jesus Christ. When we see him we will see the glory of the Father revealed in the face of Jesus.

[Author]

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