Does the father have a penis?

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ April 27 2009,19:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,12:42) Hi Is, He was declared the son “with power.”  He always was the son but now He was given authority so now He was given power.  That is how I understand that anyway.  Different ways of looking at the same thing again. K Hi Kathi: He was declared to be the Son of God with power having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the Cross.  He was perfected through application of the Word of God in the suffering that he endured. Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;   Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;   Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;   Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,
When the verse below says 'and having been made perfect' do you take that to mean that He wasn't perfect at an earlier time?

Heb 5:7-10

7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
NASU
Here is the Greek for “perfect”
NT:5048
teleio/w
teleioo (tel-i-o'-o); from NT:5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):

KJV – consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.

So, you might consider that perfect means that He accomplished all the work set out for Him to do to that point.

Just a thought,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (SEEKING @ April 27 2009,21:17)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2009,02:13) Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,21:32) Quote (thethinker @ April 26 2009,16:29) You have said that Jesus is literally the firstborn (a ridiculous idea I think). Adam was the literal firstborn of all mankind. thinker Adam was created not born, Gen.1:27. Jesus was literally born via the miraculous intervention of God, being the only one born of a virgin. Not a ridiculous idea but a wonderful idea pre- determined by his heavenly father and ours, Mt.6:9. Seeking Hi Seeking, Do you believe that the Son of GOD existed in a living way before His conception in Mary? Kathi I am not certain what you mean by “living.” If you mean having flesh, no. In a spiritual sense, pre-determined in the mind of GOD, yes. I do believe that Jesus being the begotten “firstborn” of a virgin is who he was in John 3:16. John 3:16 (KJV)      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. I believe it is significant that Jesus is and will be the only one born in this fashion, of a virgin. You have covered the fact that this statement was made prior to the resurrection. It was also pointed out, I believe by Nick, that GOD declared Jesus to be His son prior to the resurrection also, at his baptism – Mat 3:16  And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; Mat 3:17  and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Much has been made of the point of declaration as son from Rom 1:4  and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, by the resurrection.  I believe the simple and accurate explanation is that the resurrection was the point of “decaration”  as son, but it was NOT the point of “consummation” as son.  That was at conception by the Spirit when he was conceived in Mary. Jesus alone carries the title “firstborn” and only one to be born in that fashion.  He is the “firstborn” from the dead with many to follow, including you and me. Does that ring true to you? I do not forsee it will with our trinitarian friends, but I expect that. It has been suggested that I “revisit” “firstborn”. It has been “revisted” by you, me, thinker, and others – but not to the point that I would change my mind. Blessings, Seeking

Hi Seeking,
Thank you for your answer. That helps me know where you stand. I can understand how you could come to your conclusions. Many do not realize the fullness of the active voice in Greek verbs. If a verb is written in the active voice (that is spelled a certain way) it tells us that the subject did the action. If I say “Bill hit the ball” then Bill did the action. If the verb is not in the active voice but in the passive voice the sentence could be “Bill was hit by the ball.” Here the subject receives the action.

There are a couple of verses that come to mind that use the active voice and imply that the Son actually did the action and not as you say…he received the action. A plan can only receive action, it cannot act on its own. The two verses are (active voice verbs in bold):

John 1:1
In the beginning was the word and the word was with GOD and the word was God.

Heb 1:10

10 And,

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU

In John 1:1, the word is the subject and was is the verb which simply means the word existed in the beginning. The word did the actual existing in an active way not like a plan that can not act on its own.

In the Hebrews 1:10 verse, the Son is the Lord here and He “laid the foundation.” He was the one doing it. It couldn't have been a plan.

This is how I understand it, you might find yourself a person who has studied Greek to verify this to you.

I believe that the Son was begotten before He laid the foundation of the earth obviously because if He wasn't alive, how could He have done that?

God's love,
Kathi

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2009,14:32)

Quote (942767 @ April 27 2009,19:47) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,12:42) Hi Is, He was declared the son “with power.”  He always was the son but now He was given authority so now He was given power.  That is how I understand that anyway.  Different ways of looking at the same thing again. K Hi Kathi: He was declared to be the Son of God with power having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the Cross.  He was perfected through application of the Word of God in the suffering that he endured. Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;   Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;   Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;   Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, When the verse below says 'and having been made perfect' do you take that to mean that He wasn't perfect at an earlier time? Heb 5:7-10 7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. NASU Here is the Greek for “perfect” NT:5048 teleio/w teleioo (tel-i-o'-o); from NT:5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): KJV – consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect. So, you might consider that perfect means that He accomplished all the work set out for Him to do to that point. Just a thought, Kathi

Kathi:

His spirit was formed within him as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily living, therefore, I believe that the following from the definitions that you have presented best suit what I believe to be true.

Quote

figuratively) consummate (in character):

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ April 27 2009,23:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2009,14:32) Quote (942767 @ April 27 2009,19:47) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,12:42) Hi Is, He was declared the son “with power.”  He always was the son but now He was given authority so now He was given power.  That is how I understand that anyway.  Different ways of looking at the same thing again. K Hi Kathi: He was declared to be the Son of God with power having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the Cross.  He was perfected through application of the Word of God in the suffering that he endured. Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;   Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;   Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;   Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, When the verse below says 'and having been made perfect' do you take that to mean that He wasn't perfect at an earlier time? Heb 5:7-10 7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. NASU Here is the Greek for “perfect” NT:5048 teleio/w teleioo (tel-i-o'-o); from NT:5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): KJV – consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect. So, you might consider that perfect means that He accomplished all the work set out for Him to do to that point. Just a thought, Kathi Kathi: His spirit was formed within him as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily living, therefore, I believe that the following from the definitions that you have presented best suit what I believe to be true. Quote figuratively) consummate (in character): Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,
That is entirely possible.

Blessings,
Kathi

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2009,19:04)

gollamudi wrote: Quote Brother Kerwin says that Jesus became son of God even at his conception because the Holy Spirit was involved in his conception. I want to ask him; whether Jesus was flesh and blood son of God? I seem not to have been as clear spoken as I believed I was.   There were two different events involving the Holy Spirit that occurred at Jesus' conception.  The first even is the conception itself and the second event was that Jesus was immediately reborn in Spirit.  I am not sure it happened at conception since the scripture is not clear on the point and all I know that from the point he was able to sin onward he lived by the Holy Spirit and thus must have been reborn of it.  Since John the Baptist knew Jesus' mother when John was within the womb but six months then I would conclude six months in the womb would be the latest possibility and the earliest is conception.  Sadly this is all inferred from scripture since scripture does not explicitly address the point at which Jesus was reborn in Spirit and some even question the rebirth.  That and other obstacles God has placed in the way to test the hearts of those who claim to seek Him. Mark 14:36(NIV) reads: Quote “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Romans 8:15(NIV) reads: Quote For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” Galatians 4:6(NIV) reads: Quote Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

Hi brother Kerwin,
Thanks for your response on my post. I appreciate your concern on my query. But still there is no direct reply from you for my question;whether Jesus was the flesh and blood son of God?

Lot of assumptions on your part for Jesus being reborn as the son of God from his conception in Mary.

No problem at all I thank you for such reply.

Peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Jesus is not the son of the flesh of God for I am pretty sure God does not have flesh as we do.  Jesus is the Son of God through the Spirit in the same way those who believe in him are the sons of God.  I thought the scriptures I quoted made that point plain.  

I do not believe that I made any assumptions though perhaps my argument was not as complete as I thought.   I believe Jesus is a man, a son of Adam, and so he to inherited the curse of slavery to sin and yet we know he never sinned.  The only reason I can think of why he never sinned is because he walked by the Spirit.  Since to walk by the Spirit it follows he had the Spirit at least from the point which he had the choice to sin.  That point seems to be reached when a child is in their mother's womb.  I used reborn to describe his receiving the Spirit.

Isaiah 7:14-16(NIV) reads:

Quote

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Was no man ever capable of obeying the law?

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Kerwin,
Once again I thank you for such prompt reply. Now you are more clear in your reply. I agree with you that Jesus was not a flesh and blood son of God. But many people think here that Jesus had Mary as his mother and God as his father. What do they mean by this? Was God his literal father I mean flesh and blood father?

I may not agree with you that Jesus was reborn by spirit at his conception itself. I only believe that Jesus was reborn in spirit at Jordan when he was filled with the Holy Spirit like everyone of us and was declared by God Himself that he was his beloved son which also fulfilled the prophecy of Ps 2:

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

I think brother Nick agrees with me on this. He became Messiah on this day only.

Even the so called virgin birth is not important for me if Jesus really shared our type of nature. I don't believe in literal virgin birth. Even I don't believe in the myth of original sin therefore Jesus being born of virgin again a speculation on Christianity. We have already discussed this issue fully well on the thread 'Virgin birth'. The original Hebrew version of Isa 7:14 does not imply any 'virigin' but only an 'young woman'. I can even freely believe that Joseph was Jesus' real father thereby making Jesus a real son of David.

Many may not agree with me. But if Jesus was really a human like everyone of us these myths are not at all required. Hope you will appreciate my views.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[theodorej]

Quote (thethinker @ April 27 2009,02:08)

To All, Let's not forget about Esau and Jacob. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob and so Jacob became the “firstborn.” Then God adopted Jacob and changed his name to Israel. Then God told Moses to command the pharoah to let Israel go saying, Quote Israel is my son, even My firstborn (Ex. 4:22) Jacob existed BEFORE he acquired the name “firstborn son.” So it is with Jesus. thinker

Greetings thinker……Esau can not alter the fact that he was the firstborn,however,he did give up the right and privledge that comes with it to Jacob….

[KangarooJack]

theodorej said:

Quote

Greetings thinker……Esau can not alter the fact that he was the firstborn,however,he did give up the right and privledge that comes with it to Jacob….

tj,
This is what I have been trying to tell Kathi. God chose Jacob to be the “firstborn.” Jacob knew this. He knew also that the right of the firstborn would have to be transferred to him so the decree could come to pass. Instead of waiting on God to do it he conned the right out of his older brother. And when Esau gave the right to him it stuck. God honored it though it wasn't His way. Jacob was then the firstborn.

Historically the facts don't change. Esau is the firsborn historically. But Jacob (Israel) became the firstborn covenantally.

God decreed that Isaac would be the firstborn. That word also had to come to pass in history and it did come to pass when Sarah ousted Ishamel from the covenant. After Sarah ousted him Isaac became the “only begotten” and the decree came to pass. Ishmael was still Abraham's literal firstborn and this fact cannot be altered. The thing that changed is that he was no longer the covenantal head. This right was transferred to Isaac. Jesus, like Isaac and Jacob was NOT born but became the covenantal head of God's family.

Psalm 2 says that it was decreed that Messiah was to become the Son of God. Jesus was the Son of God by decree. And it was necessary for that decree come to pass in history. It came to pass when Jesus finished his atoning work. And every Scripture that speaks to the time Jesus was begotten puts it at the time of his exaltation. This is when he inherited all rights as God's “firstborn”, that is, the covenantal head of the family of God.

While Isaac and Jacob acquired the firstborn right APART from their works Jesus was required to EARN it. AFTER He earned it He was begotten. “TODAY I have begotten you” (Ps. 2:7; Heb. 1:1-5; 5:5-6; Rom. 1:1-3). Therefore, His being begotten has absolutely nothing to do with his being created or with God reproducing Himsef.

In other words the eternal Word BECAME the Son of God.

thinker

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2009,21:33)

Hi KW, Was no man ever capable of obeying the law?

not all of the laws all of the time… this would be to be perfect, and eliminate the need for the Savior… the bible is clear that no one has ever perfectly obeyed the law… why? because we are by nature children of wrath…
Ephesians 2:2-3 (ESV) [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

and

Romans 3:23 (ESV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

It seems as if someone would have been able to be perfectly obedient to all of the law all of the time, someone would have done so by now. But, no one has, therefore we can deduce that no one can.

blessings,
ken

[kerwin]

gollamudi wrote:

Quote

The original Hebrew version of Isa 7:14 does not imply any 'virigin' but only an 'young woman'.

From what I understand the Hebrew word is like the word “maiden” which has multiple meanings.  One meaning of “maiden” being a virgin but another being an unwed woman.  I would not be surprised to find the Hebrew word is used similarly being in their culture a young unmarried woman was expected to be a virgin.

I take it you believe of the books of both Matthew and Luke are false scripture since both authors clearly testify Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus’ conception and at least one makes the point Joseph did not have sex with her until after Jesus was born.

gollamudi wrote:

Quote

I can even freely believe that Joseph was Jesus' real father thereby making Jesus a real son of David.

Either way Jesus is a male descendant of David,  From what I heard Jadishness it  traced through the mother’s line and since Jesus was fatherless that would put him in his mother’s tribe.  I believe the same thing would occur if his father was a Gentile.

gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Many may not agree with me. But if Jesus was really a human like everyone of us these myths are not at all required.

Well considering it is not a myth and God said it would be a sign that a virgin would be with child I am going to disagree with you.

gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Even I don't believe in the myth of original sin therefore Jesus being born of virgin again a speculation on Christianity.

I am not familiar with the tenet of original sin so I looked in up and one variation does sound like what I understand from scripture.  From what I see there are several variations and a claim that it is not a Jewish tenet because it is not found in the Old Testament.  I have to disagree as it is inferred by certain Old Testament teachings.  Some of these inferences were used by Paul to explain it to his readers in his letters.  I know John also mentions the results in that we are slaves of sin and that Jesus sets us free.

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2009,16:33)

Hi KW, Was no man ever capable of obeying the law?

No man can obey the law unless they walk by the Spirit of God.  I would say that even includes angels.  That is why we are instructed to keep the unity of the Spirit and if you look Jesus and God for that matter are included in the unity.   The Spirit comes from God and goes through Jesus to reach everyone else in heaven and on earth.  I am only speaking of those that are part of the unity.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin …..I will go even further , No one cane obey the law unless the Law IS PUT IN THEM< GOD MUST WRITE THEM ON OUR HEARTS and MINDS. IMO

PEACE………….gene

[SEEKING]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2009,20:03)

This is how I understand it, you might find yourself a person who has studied Greek to verify this to you. I believe that the Son was begotten before He laid the foundation of the earth obviously because if He wasn't alive, how could He have done that? God's love, Kathi

Kathi,

You are right about the active and passive voice in the Greek.
I have had the priviledge of several years of studying the Greek language though not an expert scholar by any means.

I do believe in a “spiritual” begettal as evident in Jn.1:1
though I do not hold trinitarian understandings necessarily.

I also believe in the physical begettal of Jn.3:16 which is active voice with the Father doing the acting. That is what a understand and refer to as the “physical” begettal.

That understanding of a, if you would, twofold concept of begettal makes things more undestandable, for me.

Blessings,

Seeking

[Lightenup]

Quote (SEEKING @ April 28 2009,14:17)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2009,20:03) This is how I understand it, you might find yourself a person who has studied Greek to verify this to you. I believe that the Son was begotten before He laid the foundation of the earth obviously because if He wasn't alive, how could He have done that? God's love, Kathi Kathi, You are right about the active and passive voice in the Greek. I have had the priviledge of several years of studying the Greek language though not an expert scholar by any means. I do believe in a “spiritual” begettal as evident in Jn.1:1 though I do not hold trinitarian understandings necessarily. I also believe in the physical begettal of Jn.3:16 which is active voice with the Father doing the acting. That is what a understand and refer to as the “physical” begettal. That understanding of a, if you would, twofold concept of begettal makes things more undestandable, for me. Blessings, Seeking

Hi Seeking,
I am glad to read that you have been a student of Greek for several years. Knowing some Greek has helped me a lot but, like you say, I am no where near a scholar.

You speak of a spiritual begettal and a physical begettal. You believe that the spiritual begettal happened sometime before the Son was used to make everything in heaven and earth I take it. Right?

Do you believe the Son had a heavenly body to exist in at that spiritual begettal?

Would you say that the Son was begotten of GOD into a heavenly body before creating all things IN heaven and ON earth…then many years later He was begotten of GOD into a fleshly body through Mary's pregnancy and birth…and then many years later He was begotten of GOD from the grave to receive life immortal?

God bless,
Kathi

[SEEKING]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2009,13:16)

Quote (SEEKING @ April 28 2009,14:17) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2009,20:03) This is how I understand it, you might find yourself a person who has studied Greek to verify this to you. I believe that the Son was begotten before He laid the foundation of the earth obviously because if He wasn't alive, how could He have done that? God's love, Kathi Kathi, You are right about the active and passive voice in the Greek. I have had the priviledge of several years of studying the Greek language though not an expert scholar by any means. I do believe in a “spiritual” begettal as evident in Jn.1:1 though I do not hold trinitarian understandings necessarily. I also believe in the physical begettal of Jn.3:16 which is active voice with the Father doing the acting. That is what a understand and refer to as the “physical” begettal. That understanding of a, if you would, twofold concept of begettal makes things more undestandable, for me. Blessings, Seeking Hi Seeking, I am glad to read that you have been a student of Greek for several years.  Knowing some Greek has helped me a lot but, like you say, I am no where near a scholar. You speak of a spiritual begettal and a physical begettal.  You believe that the spiritual begettal happened sometime before the Son was used to make everything in heaven and earth I take it.  Right? Do you believe the Son had a heavenly body to exist in at that spiritual begettal? Would you say that the Son was begotten of GOD into a heavenly body before creating all things IN heaven and ON earth…then many years later He was begotten of GOD into a fleshly body through Mary's pregnancy and birth…and then many years later He was begotten of GOD from the grave to receive life immortal? God bless, Kathi

There is a heavenly body and there is a spiritual body.
As to deciding when Jesus possesed which, if one needed to pass for the other to exist I have not considered.

Our physical must pass and we must put on the immortal.
At the transfiguration it appears something similar took place with Jesus.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Co 15:53  For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Blessings,

Seeking

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene @ April 28 2009,23:56)

Kerwin …..I will go even further , No one cane obey the law unless the Law IS PUT IN THEM< GOD MUST WRITE THEM ON OUR HEARTS and MINDS. IMO PEACE………….gene

It is the Spirit by which God writes His Law on our Heart and our Mind.  That is why Jesus teaches that the Spirit would come to instruct those that believe in him.

[Lightenup]

Quote (SEEKING @ April 28 2009,18:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2009,13:16) Quote (SEEKING @ April 28 2009,14:17) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2009,20:03) This is how I understand it, you might find yourself a person who has studied Greek to verify this to you. I believe that the Son was begotten before He laid the foundation of the earth obviously because if He wasn't alive, how could He have done that? God's love, Kathi Kathi, You are right about the active and passive voice in the Greek. I have had the priviledge of several years of studying the Greek language though not an expert scholar by any means. I do believe in a “spiritual” begettal as evident in Jn.1:1 though I do not hold trinitarian understandings necessarily. I also believe in the physical begettal of Jn.3:16 which is active voice with the Father doing the acting. That is what a understand and refer to as the “physical” begettal. That understanding of a, if you would, twofold concept of begettal makes things more undestandable, for me. Blessings, Seeking Hi Seeking, I am glad to read that you have been a student of Greek for several years.  Knowing some Greek has helped me a lot but, like you say, I am no where near a scholar. You speak of a spiritual begettal and a physical begettal.  You believe that the spiritual begettal happened sometime before the Son was used to make everything in heaven and earth I take it.  Right? Do you believe the Son had a heavenly body to exist in at that spiritual begettal? Would you say that the Son was begotten of GOD into a heavenly body before creating all things IN heaven and ON earth…then many years later He was begotten of GOD into a fleshly body through Mary's pregnancy and birth…and then many years later He was begotten of GOD from the grave to receive life immortal? God bless, Kathi There is a heavenly body and there is a spiritual body. As to deciding when Jesus possesed which, if one needed to pass for the other to exist I have not considered. Our physical must pass and we must put on the immortal. At the transfiguration it appears something similar took place with Jesus. 1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1Co 15:53  For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. Blessings, Seeking

Hi Seeking,
I think that we are seeing things very similar here. I was thinking of this passage too and then you went and posted from it. I think that the term “heavenly body” is a simile for the term “spiritual body.” Look at this again and tell me what you think:

1 Cor 15:35-55
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
The Mystery of Resurrection 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”
NASU

I would suppose to go from a heavenly/spiritual body to a earthy/flesh body one would go through a transfiguration, sort of in the opposite way than it is for us, we are hoping to transfigure from an earthly body to a heavenly/spiritual body someday.

Won't that be cool! We get a cooler body someday. The Son had to give up His cool heavenly body for this very limited earthly body. He in a sense, handicapped Himself. Now He is restored to a heavenly/spiritual body. IMO

God bless ya,
Kathi

[942767]

Hi:

In a personal experience, God has shown me that all men born or the sperm of man is the seed of unrighteousness in that all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Therefore, Only he who is the Only Begotten Son of God has overcome sin and death. No, Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus.

The scripture states:

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Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

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Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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