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Quote (Cindy @ April 25 2009,22:50) Hi! When I read some of the post made here, I wonder if some of you understand that Jesus was not any ordinary man. He was God's only begotten Son, like Kathi said. Even tho the Angels and we are considered Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we are not equal with Christ. He sits on the right hand of our Father God, and He said in
Hebrew 1:8 ” Your Throne O God is forever and ever; etc.
The Father calls His Son God. Jesus is second in line, to place Him.
Peace and Love IreneThe quote you used from Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:8-9(KJV) reads:
Quote But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
is a quote of this passage from Psalms:
Psalms 45:6-7(KJV) reads:
Quote Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Why do you think Psalms 45 is a messianic prophecy?
I am told that it is a type of wedding song that is meant to teach wisdom, otherwise called a maskil, and so it is addressed not to Jesus specifically but to any student of God.
Is it possible you misunderstand the author of Hebrews method of using the quote? Could he possibly be using it not because it specifically speaks of Jesus but rather because what it states is true of Jesus because He is the ideal toward which students of God strive?
Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2009,16:59) To All, Is it not written “The righteous will live by faith” and was not Jesus righteous? Since it is true then we must conclude Jesus was righteous because of his faith just as he calls us to be. Are we not told in scripture that the righteousness that is like God's is obtainable by living by the Spirit and in no other way. As we know this is true then we know that Jesus lived righteously because he lived by the Spirit and he lived by the Spirit through faith as the firstborn of those that would live by the Spirit. He is our teacher and it is through obeying his teachings that we too can live by the Spirit.
If Jesus is superior to us in any way then it is his superior faith that is the most important for without faith it is impossible to please God.
Hebrews 11:16(NIV) reads:
Quote And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Kerwin………I totally agree with this post. Thanks brother, Abraham FAITH was reckoned as righteousness also. also.peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2009,11:44) Interesting point Thinker. I guess Romans 1:4 has some relevance here as well: Romans 1:1-3 (NASB)
1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,What are your thoughts?
Is. 1:18,Paul used the word “horizdo” which means to appoint by decree (see Strong's #3724). It was decreed that Jesus be the Son of God through the resurrection. Paul is in agreement with the author to the Hebrews. It was according to the power of the word which was spoken by God.
Quote …decreed to be the Son of God in power [of the word spoken by decree], according to the spirit of holiness through the resurrection of the dead. Jesus became the Son of God by the spoken word of God. It has zilch, nada, nothing to do with His supposed beginning. Paul said that God decreed that Jesus would inherit the name “Son” through the resurrection just as the author to the Hebrews said.
Yet Kathi offers us the pagan alternative. She said,
Lightenup said:
Quote Did you inherit your eye color? When did you receive it? You didn't have to wait to receive that inheritance did you…it came when you were conceived already programmed into your DNA just like you being a male which made you a son.
Think about it,
KathiThis is pure, unadulterated paganism! God decreed that Jesus would inherit the name “Son” through the resurrection. Yet Kathi makes it a matter of genetics. This is Greek mythology modernized. Kathi's God has a penis just like the gods of the pagans.
thinker
Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2009,14:22) Quote (thethinker @ April 21 2009,13:31) Lightenup said: Quote I believe in a literal Son of God and you don't. When I started seeing a literal Son of God who existed from before creation, I started to understand the message of the New Testament. It changed my life 16 years ago. To All,
Though I have a great love for our sister Kathi she commits the ultimate Unitarian error in her statement that Christ was the literal Son of God. Jesus Himself said that “God is spirit“. This in turn infers that Jesus is a “son” in a spiritual sense. Or does God have a penis?And she says that she saw a “literal Son of God before creation.” This means that the Father consummated with a female God that always existed. So the Father is NOT the only true God. There is another female God who had sex with the Father and they begat Jesus, the lesser “god.”
Can you see the similiarity that Unitarianism has with the ancient doctrines of the pagans? The lesser “gods” were generated by the sexual acts of higher gods.
Unitarianism shows it pagan roots.
thinker
Thinker,
Good grief why would God who is complete need a counterpart to reproduce? Man needs a helpmate, God does not.After all, God who is spirit created other spirits (angels) without the aid of a female God, why would He need someone to reproduce with?
I am not Unitarian, read my posts.
Thank you for your concern tho,
Kathi
This is what I said about your seemingly fixation of the male reproductive organ…have you just reached puberty btw? Maturity in Christ looks the opposite of your immaturity. I certainly do not want to be in the same camp as you in fact I would be embarassed to be found in agreement with you. You have no idea how to debate but just sling unthoughtful opinions. Grow up!Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,10:25) Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.
The fruit of the Spirit is a greater sign of relationship to the one true God than is the capacity to debate scripture, isn't it.Quote (SEEKING @ April 25 2009,13:33) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,10:25) Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.
The fruit of the Spirit is a greater sign of relationship to the one true God than is the capacity to debate scripture, isn't it.
So true Seeking!Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2009,05:25) Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.
Kathi,
There is nothing wrong with the word that you don't want me to mention. It is in all the dictionaries. Now please ponder what you said:Quote Did you inherit your eye color? When did you receive it? You didn't have to wait to receive that inheritance did you…it came when you were conceived already programmed into your DNA just like you being a male which made you a son.
Think about it,
KathiThis is awful Christology! It's awful! You are making the Word a “son” in a natural way. If not then please explain this. If I don't use the word you say is vulgar and if I don't use the word “pagan” would that be better? I will say “awful” instead.
Paul said that Jesus was decreed to be the Son of God through the resurrection (Rom. 1:1-3). And Hebrews 1:1-5 says that Jesus inherited the name “Son” and “firstbegotten” AFTER he had purged our sins and was exalted.
Jesus was NOT the Son of God in the grotesque way you have suggested. God cannot reproduce. The thought is repulsive to me.
thinker
Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,05:33) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,10:25) Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.
The fruit of the Spirit is a greater sign of relationship to the one true God than is the capacity to debate scripture, isn't it.
Hi seekingI agree. But lets be honest here, there has been some bad fruit coming out of both camps, Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian.
Blessing WJ
Quote (thethinker @ April 25 2009,14:11) Jesus was NOT the Son of God in the grotesque way you have suggested. God cannot reproduce. The thought is repulsive to me. thinker
I regret that you find God's plan for reproduction to be “grotesque” and “repulsive.” Do you believe the biblical account of the birth of Jesus? Would you concede that if, as the account spells out, Mary was impregnated by other than natural means, the birth was miraculous?If the birth was miraculous, could it be that God can reproduce
by means not kown or understood by man?How did the “begotten” spoken of in Hebrews occur?
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?
Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”;
Thayer Definition:
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaphorically
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work
Part of Speech: verbStrong's Defnition:
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: – bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.Obviously, the bible depicts the physical birth of Jesus as taking place via miraculous means. God is his father and Mary is his mother. Joseph is “father” only to satisfy the legal terms in Jewish minds (and those that can only think fleshly today.)
Natural birth – unnatural conception!
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
God IS GOD and he has a son, Jesus. He said so!
Seeking
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2009,14:24) Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,05:33) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,10:25) Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.
The fruit of the Spirit is a greater sign of relationship to the one true God than is the capacity to debate scripture, isn't it.
Hi seekingI agree. But lets be honest here, there has been some bad fruit coming out of both camps, Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian.
Blessing WJ
To ignore fruit in favor of license to be rude, crude, condescending, etc. is not biblical.To say that “the other guy is as bad or worse” does not produce growth. It is customarily done to justify self and avoid true repentance IMO.
I acknowledge what you are saying but hasten to add that we are not to condone evil.
Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
If one needs to be perfect to point out evil, evil cannot be pointed out. It is also awful sly to use a word not wrong in itself in a disrespectful, demeaning, offending, manner and claim innocence.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,09:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2009,14:24) Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,05:33) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,10:25) Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.
The fruit of the Spirit is a greater sign of relationship to the one true God than is the capacity to debate scripture, isn't it.
Hi seekingI agree. But lets be honest here, there has been some bad fruit coming out of both camps, Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian.
Blessing WJ
To ignore fruit in favor of license to be rude, crude, condescending, etc. is not biblical.To say that “the other guy is as bad or worse” does not produce growth. It is customarily done to justify self and avoid true repentance IMO.
I acknowledge what you are saying but hasten to add that we are not to condone evil.
Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
If one needs to be perfect to point out evil, evil cannot be pointed out. It is also awful sly to use a word not wrong in itself in a disrespectful, demeaning, offending, manner and claim innocence.
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi SeekingQuote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,09:57) If one needs to be perfect to point out evil, evil cannot be pointed out. Ill be watching to see if you do this to your non-trinitarian friends.
WJ
Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,09:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2009,14:24) Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,05:33) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2009,10:25) Thinker,
Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant. You are very small in my mind right now. Plus you are vulgar!!! May the Lord spare you.
The fruit of the Spirit is a greater sign of relationship to the one true God than is the capacity to debate scripture, isn't it.
Hi seekingI agree. But lets be honest here, there has been some bad fruit coming out of both camps, Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian.
Blessing WJ
To ignore fruit in favor of license to be rude, crude, condescending, etc. is not biblical.To say that “the other guy is as bad or worse” does not produce growth. It is customarily done to justify self and avoid true repentance IMO.
I acknowledge what you are saying but hasten to add that we are not to condone evil.
Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
If one needs to be perfect to point out evil, evil cannot be pointed out. It is also awful sly to use a word not wrong in itself in a disrespectful, demeaning, offending, manner and claim innocence.
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi seekingQuote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,09:57) To say that “the other guy is as bad or worse” does not produce growth. Actually there is none righteous, no not one.
We all have short falls. Its also pride to think that one is greater than another when they see a brother sin.
Paul said…
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: “Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought“, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Rom 12:3
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2009,15:16) Hi Seeking Quote (SEEKING @ April 26 2009,09:57) If one needs to be perfect to point out evil, evil cannot be pointed out. Ill be watching to see if you do this to your non-trinitarian friends.
WJ
Thank you! I invite your correction when you find me hypocritical. Equally, I will be curious if you will come to the defence of non-trinitarians as much as you do of your friends.Hopefully, we will both rise above friendship preference and simply point out sin wherever we find it.
1Ti 5:21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Jas 2:1 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Be blessed,
Seeking
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2009,15:30) Actually there is none righteous, no not one. We all have short falls. Its also pride to think that one is greater than another when they see a brother sin.
Paul said…
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: “Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought“, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Rom 12:3
WJ
Indeed! It is not a matter of thinking oneself “greater.”
It is to recognize the deceitfulness and devastation of sin.Out of biblical balance is the foundation from which all these discussions eminate.
Paul said…
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Seeking
Yes WJ,
You should honour the words of Sciipture rather than the teachings of men.
Trinity is never found in the mouth of God but only those of men.Seeking said:
Quote I regret that you find God's plan for reproduction to be “grotesque” and “repulsive.” Do you believe the biblical account of the birth of Jesus? Would you concede that if, as the account spells out, Mary was impregnated by other than natural means, the birth was miraculous? Seeking,
Where did I say that God's plan for human reproduction was grotesque? I said that God's reproducing Himself was grotesque. And yes Mary was indeed impregnated by other than natural means. Through this Jesus became the offspring of David– not the offspring of God. Jesus was also the ROOT of David. Therefore, He pre-existed David.At any rate, the miraculous conception of Jesus had nothing to do with His title “Son of God.” This was the title He EARNED AFTER He purged our sins and was exalted (Rom. 1:1-3; Heb. 1:1-5).
NKJV: “You are my Son; TODAY I have begotten You.”
NIV: “You are My Son; TODAY I have become your Father.”
God became the “Father” of Jesus AFTER He had earned the title “Son of God.”
Therefore, the title “Son of God” has no reference at all to Christ's supposed beginning or God reproducing or anything else like that. For He existed BEFORE He acquired the name. It is the NAME that Jesus EARNED. And it is ABOVE EVERY NAME. And by “above” the Father means far above.
thinker
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