Does it really matter

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 22 2010,12:53)

For to which of the messengers said He ever, 'My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'[/color]  just my confused understanding that is all,

Shimmer…………..Notice it say (I) Will be to him a Father and He (SHALL) be to me a SON. Now common sense should tell us that the words “WILL” and “SHALL” are all (future tense words). So if it is future tense then it did not exist at the time it was spoken right?.

Think about it , but you are right there there is so much confusion out there because of all the Apostate Church teachings , they have clouded the truth of Gods words completely it seems. But we know that a time will come when everything will be set in order and become very clear to all IMO.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

[shimmer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,15:10)

we know that a time will come when everything will be set in order and become very clear to all

Looking forward to that time Gene, and I see some thing's in your longer post which I can understand,

I wonder how it will really be, we will hear the truth, some things we would have got right, some thing's wrong, other things will blow us away, we probably won't even remember,  “He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”

[shimmer]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 21 2010,23:31)

All, Why all the struggle? First the thought, then the word, then the act. The Thought is In God. The Word is From God The Act is By 'Jesus' God carries out His words, his utterances, through agents… Angels. How many different types of residents are described in God's kingdom? Two. God and Angels (p.s. The Holy Spirit is 'of God' not a seperate being. It is the actioning 'Force', 'wind' of God) They are all Spirits. The queen of England wishes to entertain a visiting dignatory. She consults her political servants as to the protocols required, her diplomats as to conversational topics, greeting, exchanges of gifts, etc. Her senior cooks and table layers and couch cushion fluffers. Then she formulates her plan (the Thought), and appoints (the Word) the most appropriate persons to carry it out (the Act). She herself, does not ACTually do the work…YET, all things are attributed to her. Yet, also, the senior appointee…can also be said to have carried her plan, to her very Word.

Hi. That was good,

Quote

The word was with God. Yes, Jesus was with God. And the word was 'God'.  Clearly, this is not 'God Almighty', but 'Mighty One'. 'God', is not a name… It is a title. It is a title that means 'Mighty One', 'Hero', 'One with Power and Authority'. Hence, the appropriate meaning must be applied in the right context. The Word was 'God'. Please select from above, baring in mind that 'God' cannot mean 'God Almighty'. Yes, the Word was a 'Mighty One', 'one with power and authority' to carry out that which God Almighty (the one from whom 'All' Might, 'All' Power and Authority' proceeds) spoke.

Thats where I don't get it. Unless you are talking about pre-Jesus being an Angel. Then why is he called the word, and why does it say the word was God, [this is off topic]

[JustAskin]

Shimmer,

Please. I just explained…: 'God', 'Theos', means 'Mighty One'….please do not get confused because we attribute the Title of 'God' mainly, by shorthand, to 'THE MOST HIGH MIGHTY ONE', YHVH.

Understand, 'God' is a title…do not think of 'God' as a person…it is a TITLE.

'KING' is a title, meaning 'One who rules over a KINGdom'.

YHVH, a name, The Name of 'the most high mighty one', is also a 'King', yet we know that Jesus, also is [a] King…but he is not 'the most high King'.

Similarly, someone can be [a] God within their own species, among their own kind.
Moses was a 'human God' among the leaders of the Hebrews, a God over his fellow human, Joshua. God, the most high, called Moses 'a god',:'You shall be a God to him', why?, 'you shall be [as] a mighty one to him'. And Jesus said, 'If He [Almighty God], called them 'gods' [Moses, David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Solomon, Jeremiah, Daniel,Nehemiah, Jesus, many othersl] unto whom the word of God came, why do you [Jews, Pharasees, Sadducees, Scribes, Priests] say I blaspheme if I say I am the Son of God?'

So, Shimmer, 'The Word was God'… Why is it hard to understand? Is it easier then to say, 'The Word was [a] Mighty One'? Then think of it in that way.

Context, context, context…always.

We say, in shorthand, 'God' meaning 'The most high mighty one' but it is clear that since the second verse already mention that 'the Word' was 'WITH God', 'God' in the third verse CANNOT BE 'the most high God' but simply 'a mighty one'.

To be able to carry out the Will of 'the most mighty one' that one had also to be 'a mighty one'.

All angels are 'mighty ones', 'ones of might'. All angels are Sons of the the most mighty one. Angels are powerful creatures who, even when in human form, can walk through firey volcanic furnaces, descend to the bottomless oceans, ascend to the topless mountains, move the immovable load, etc, if…requested to do so by God, YHVH, the most mighty one.

Additionally, the most mighty one, YHVH, is the Source of ALL Might. The source of all might and power, and also the issuer of the AUTHORITY to use that Power and Might.

Witness the fractal…: Pharoah in Egypt, is the source of all power and also the sole authority over his Kingdom.
Joseph is 'empowered' by Pharoah to rule in his Kingdom and given Authority to use All Powers that Pharoah has…Except power over the throne…the Seat, the position from which the source of power dwells.
What did Pharoah say to Joseph, 'No one may lift or place a foot in my kingdom except by your say so'
So, Joseph can be therefore said to be…'a mighty one' in Egypt. What is another word for the phrase, 'mighty one'?…correct.
Yet, we are not saying he is 'The most high and mighty one', who alone is YHVH. He WHO, fractally, like Pharoah, never relinquishes His Throne to anyone.

[shimmer]

That was a good post JustAskin, ok, thanks.

But if God is just a Title, why does it say…

“Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.” or “I am Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God”,

[shimmer]

JustAskin, Ok, I get it now and understand, you don't have to answer, Thanks.

[GeneBalthrop]

Shimmer……….JA is right GOD is a Title, but there is ONLY ONE (TRUE) GOD To Us as Jesus Said. “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD”, So Those referred to as gods were being used by the (TRUE) GOD to bring about his purpose, as Moses and the others who were instilled in a capacity to serve god and by extension were considers gods because it was the (ONE) GOD'S WILL that they were to carrier out. Jesus understood that there was truly only (ONE) true GOD, I think we should also realize that. Being called a Son of GOD is also an extension of GOD to, because GOD can not reproduce Himself, He can live (IN) his creation and therefore he extends his influence over all things. We are considered sons and daughters of God because his Seed (Holy Spirit) abides (IN) us, This causes our thinking to conform to his thinking and therefore GOD'S power is extended to us. We are being CREATED to that level by the Power of GOD The FATHER.

Here is something interesting ……the original Pictorial language of the Hebrews pictured GOD as the Head of and Ox with a Staff beside it. Its meaning, the Ox represented Power and the Staff was what they trusted or leaned on for support. If you go to the Jeff Benner site on the Hebrew language he has it clearly there. God in its simplest Form means (POWER) So when we read “The LORD our God is One LORD”, we can just as easily say the LORD (YHWH) our (POWER) is ONE LORD (YHWH). Hope this helped.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

[Ed J]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 22 2010,18:26)

Shimmer, So, Shimmer, 'The Word was God'… Why is it hard to understand?

Hi JustAskin,

Yea, why is it 'hard' for 'you' to understand?

I have lined “Bible Truth”=117 up to help you to better
understand “Our YHVH”=117; the God of our fathers.

John 1:1…
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

           English        ↔    Hebrew       ↔    Greek
     “Word of God”  ↔      “God”         ↔ “The Word”
“Word of God”(86) =   (אלהים](86]     = [ο λογος](86)th Prime Hō Lōgôs
         YHVH(63)      = ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) = The Bible(63)    
 Spirit of God(117) = (117)יהוה האלהים = Bible Truth(117)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  .hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[shimmer]

Hi Gene, well said,

I used to have no problem with God as a Title, but since all the strange happening's [discussions] on here lately – [God having a body and “giving birth' to another God or something], it made me uneasy, careful what to believe.

“God is One”.
“If you believe God is one you do well”
No other God was formed nor will be, thus the Bible say's,

Hence my questioning.

But I understand what you and JustAskin are saying, thank you.

[shimmer]

JustAskin, can't you understand why I have become confused ?

[Ed J]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 23 2010,15:32)

JustAskin, can't you understand why I have become confused ?

Hi Shimmer,

You should NOT stay confused, we're here to help see “Bible Truth”!
“The Word” is the “HolySpirit”(GOD The Father's) consider Isaiah 45:23…

Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, “The Word” is gone out of “my mouth”
in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow (Psalm 95:6),
every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength:
even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. (Isaiah 60:14)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2010,21:29)

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 12 2010,00:14) Do you believe then it is wrong to say God begat God, as in Jesus pre-existant was 100% God the Father ? Cause that's what they are saying over in another thread ? It is wrong if it means that the only true God, begat another God which would then not be the only true one. However, the word theos can be used to not only identify, but qualify or talk of ones nature or office. So the God could well begat another who has the nature of God. i.e., the Divine begats a being of divine nature. Eve came from Adam, so is it wrong to say that From Adam came another adam (man/kind). No that is scriptural as it says that God made adam both male and female. Is it wrong then to say that from Adam came another Adam? Yes that is wrong, because Adam identifies the first man, and adam is the word for man(kind), and Eve was not Adam. No 2 different people. So Eve is not Adam, but she was adam. Similarly, Jesus is not the Divine, but he is divine. Just a difference in the way the word is used. Identity or qualitative. Most Trinitarians do not understand this, although a number of their scholars do, but still remain adamant that the Word was divine, but that this still makes him God. Also, because Trinitarians on the whole have no concept of how the word 'theos' can be used to identify or to qualify, they also read the Early Fathers work as supporting their view due to this ignorance.

Hi:

The divine nature of Jesus was formed in him, that is his spirit was formed within him, as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily life, and it is the same with us who are born again, we become like him as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

Jesus was born into this world an infant just like any other baby. He was not born with a divine nature.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Shimmer,

God gives to those that ask.  If ask for good things from God then he will give them to you do not doubt. Ask for the Holy Spirit believing by wearing it that you will be righteous and holy as God is then God will give it.  Just do not doubt he will or seek to use it for your own glory for in that case you cannot expect to receive it.  

I stated that because you said:

Quote

Just my confused understanding that is all,

Either your understanding is from God or it is not.  If it is then it will be consistent with who God is.

I am of the opinion that what you and Barley are stating is actually the same thing.  Barley needs to watch himself as he may get lost in unimportant details and so wander from the truth.

The interpretation of John 1 I employed using what Barley states “Word” means actually described the Word being made flesh in Jesus.  

I mentioned Philo of Alexander in another thread as he strove to explain Jewish thought to a Greek audience.   According to him it seems the Jews regarded the Spirit of God as God’s Word in that God spoke and the Sprit fulfilled his words.  It make sense as the Hebrew word” Ruwach” can also be translated “breath” and what are the words of God but the breath of God.  If John, being a Jew, wrote as one of the Jews Philo described then he could very well of been speaking of the Holy Spirit.   If that is the case then perhaps some error by translating John 1:14 too literally and what John is actually telling us is that “what God spoke came to be” which is to say became “flesh”.  We have the same testimony in other gospels of Jesus being conceived in Mary from the Spirit of God.

My intent in part with this post and my previous one is to demonstrate how interpreting Word to mean “God’s Word” or “the breath of God” actually is backed up by other scriptures that tell us the same thing.  I also seek to encourage you with the same lessens I have learned from God through scripture and other places.

[JustAskin]

Gene,

I can call you “Brother” concerning this issue…
Your last post was awesome, compelling, righteous and full of truth (as righteousness is!)

[JustAskin]

Shimmer,

I am confused as to why you are confused

Just Ask…

God is a Spirit – a Spirit does not have a body…It is Spirit. Does the WIND (Spirit) have a body? It can FORM a body, but it itself, does not Have a body.

Man thoughts, human fleshly thinking, draws the analogy of God 'giving birth' to another Spirit creature – wrong!
Man gives birth because we have no capacity to 'Give Life' – We can create the body but we cannot put Life, the spirit into it – That Spirit that animates the created body comes from God – and God alone.
hence the Wicked Angels who came to earth and formed earthly bodies could only put their own Spirit into them not a separate living Spirit as God does.
The children that were born to the women they impregnated were born because God put into man (woman) that the seed of man would bear fruit as an offspring, an child – for God to say, the angels, as man, cannot procreate with human women would be to have reneged on his promise – and god is not partial.
If the Angels were able – why didn't they just procreate without their fleshly bodies …because it would then not carry the SEED (Note – not the Egg…! Life is through the seed the sperm – the egg gives the body) and therefore have been pointless. The angels wanted to REPRODUCE – to have their OWN children as tehy saw Mankind doing – and that they – as Spirit – Could not/CANNOT DO!

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 22 2010,15:33)

That was a good post JustAskin, ok, thanks. But if God is just a Title, why does it say… “Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.” or “I am Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God”,

Shimmer,
I also believe that when it speaks about God its referred to a title.

Than again, think about it, its a title to his POISITION.

As God, there is no other God,

only One God.
Jehovah in that verse u mentioned, clarfied his position as God.

I didnt read the whole thread, so i dont know what the question is in referenced too, but i did read the beggining,
and i did read where Karmarie/shimmmer you posted that you were confused concerning those who believe that “God begat God”

In a sense, that means there are two Gods.

Yet God is omnipotent, what need does he have for another?

Thats why i strongly believe in One God, thats it.
Nothing more, and nothing less. nothing about creating another.

the Lord is Echad.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 13 2010,05:15)

Real undeniable hope is best served by a human Christ that is very clearly our example. A human Christ leaves no room for the devil to say Christ did this or that because of some extra-human attribute. So, growth in god and the fruit of hope is best served by a human messiah. (besides it is clearly scriptural)

Martian,
Whats funny is when rokkaman and i were debating in person,
I used the same example to prove the opposite of your point.
Humorous no?

In my example, is the same as yours, that Christ had to be human so that the devil could never accuse Christ for being somewhat extra attribute that others did not have.

But where we differ, is that i stated that no one else could do it but God because he is perfect, and by choosing to limit himself to such a state that he could not be accused.

In other words, its like that old sand that some say,
“Its better when i do it my self than to send someone else”

I believe God showed us the way by being the example.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 13 2010,08:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2010,05:17) Shimmer, As far as not sinning I do not say “no one is perfect” for God has the power to do anything and will do it for those who seek him.  I do understand that human beings must mature is the spirit of Christ to become perfect and that even those who don’t yet have the spirit must grow in belief to the point where they obtain the spirit.   So why would I judge another student on a journey that I am myself making.  Whether they are behind me or ahead of me, I hope that they on the path to God. I assure you though that you can overcome you sins for God will train you to do so if you believe he will and constantly and persistently ask him to do so.   What I strive to do is to say no to the sins I have the power to overcome and to seek deliverance from those I am compelled to do.  I pray that God rebukes me for doing wrong and teaches me to do right.  He answers my pleas with mercy.  It is too much for me to bear and so I surrender myself to God for it is God who accomplishes these things and lives with me. I hope this helps you in your own pursuit of the prize of righteousness to which the prophets looked. Hi Kerwin, One way that I was taught concerning the word “perfect” was to see it as “complete”.   As Shimmer pointed out, as well as the Bible, no one other than Christ and God is “perfect” as WE define perfect.  However when you think of being “complete” then we become complete when we accept Christ as our Savior and are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit who completes us. The Professor

Hi,
Sinced perfection was mentioned, i decieded to post some scripture from both the old and new testament.  
Many times i have seen, and heard the notion that we cannot be be perfect, or the doubts of it.

I rather stay quiet in the subject and let scripture speak of it self, because it could mean complete or something else.

Whats killing me is that i WISH, I WISH, I WISH,
This main scripture could happen, the Desire of Paul for us.
My Heart aches for this! how much i wish we could be real brothers, instead of so divided. If only we denied ourselves more, more, and more.
I know that one day, this will happen!
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

And this next verse, I believe represents many of us here including myself.
There was  man who spoke boldy, and he spoke concerning to what he knew, and spoke truth.
But there is a more PERFECT way. a complete way to add to his understanding.
Acts 18:26
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Out of 123 verses that mention something about perfection here are a few.

New Testament: Perfection in Union, Faith, And Love

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1:4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:17  
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Ephesians 4:12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

2 Timothy 3:17  
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

Old Testament: The Commadmends of the Perfect Heart of a obediant servant

1 Chronicles 29:19
And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision

2 Samuel 22:33  
God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.

Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

1 Kings 8:61
Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

2 Chronicles 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

2 Chronicles 15:17 (Whole Chapter)
But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

[shimmer]

Hi, Thanks Ed !

————————————

Kerwin, that was a helpful post, I like the way you take your time to look at thing's, it's so easy to go off in tangents and all kinds of wild imagination with too much reading and different opinions, but you look carefully and soundly, I will also look at these things more when I have some extra time,

——————————————————

JustAskin, I –  [was] – confused because, I was thinking too much, thats all, or thinking about the wrong thing's, – lets forget about it, I'm ok now, it was just all that other talk, you know, where in scripture does it say any of that ? It was annoying me, I get annoyed easily lol, but I suppose in a way it's good, at least I don't start agreeing, so, I'm not anymore, cause I don't read some things anymore ! [Ha, I hope that makes sense]

You are right, God is Spirit, it's what Scripture says and it's what we know. So simple.

————————————–

SimplyForgiven, I also believe there is only one God, because the Old Testament shows us that it was told over and over that God is One, it had to be repeated so many times,  Jesus said it Himself – God is one –  If I pray, and I pray 'Lord' and there is no division, I don't 'see' two but one Lord, I feel so much better, or closer, and when I write Lord, It must be YHVH,

In your thought, as you see God as one, where is Jesus in this for you ? Trinity, Anti Trinity, one-ness, or, something else ?

[GeneBalthrop]

Shimmer…………You do well to align everything in the New Testament with what is written in the Old Testament as the Bereans did. And you are right in thinking there is “ONLY ONE (TRUE) GOD”. Keeping this in mind will always keep you on track. Like it says even “though there are many (SO-CALLED) Gods , but unto us there is (ONLY ONE GOD)”.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

[Author]

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