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Quote (942767 @ Aug. 21 2010,13:06) Hi: The churches that teach the “trinity doctrine” tell me that unless I accept this doctrine or unless I by my signature on their statement of faith agree with the doctrine and the others that they list, I can't be a member of thier church, and I ask them “Is your church a different one than the Lord established”? When I confessed Jesus as my Lord, I became a member of his church and entered into a covenant relationship with God through my Lord Jesus who said to satan:
Quote Matthew 4:9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
There is no compromising the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty, if we were all taught the truth as it is supposed to be, there wouldn't be so much confusion, so I agree with you,I see you have been through a bit with some people lately, trying to help, example down in skeptics place, I admire the strength you have and your beliefs which always show Scripture, God bless you.
Shimmer,
Marty has been showing good faith recently.
I have commended his posts.
At one time Jesus said, concerning the Jews and others, 'oh, how I desired to gather you under my wings like a hen gathers her chicks', and so I also desired that we 'chick, chick, chickens' could be gathered under his comforting, shielding, nurturing wings here in this forum.If Marty holds his current line of belief, should we adopt him, beget him as a brother?
Quote (barley @ Aug. 21 2010,12:39) Shimmer, Looking up the word logos in a concordance is most enlightening.
Of over 200 uses, the vast majority of the uses fit the standard definition, “the thought behind the words used.” Rhema, a different word, refers to the words used.
Only in John 1 does some people try to make it mean a person. Certainly, I have no problem with the word becoming flesh. What is it saying? In John 1:1, God is highlighting the importance of his words, the thought behind the words used. God's words are important to Him, as a matter of fact. God's word is the greatest thing God ever did. He magnified it above His own name. Like a check, the word of God is only as good as the one signing it, underwriting it. Psalm 138:2 b. “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
God did a “show and tell” when He brought forth a son. The son clearly demonstrated God's word, Jesus Christ showed people what God's word is all about. On top of that, because of JC's precise knowledge of the meaning of the scriptures, not only could he show it perfectly, but teach it perfectly. He did the will of the Father. How did he know the will of the Father? He knows the word of the Father.
How wonderful it is that, to the degree and proportion that we know the word of God and believe it, we, too, can show the Father, just like JC, our older brother did.
barley
Hi Barley,If Logos means the 'thought behind the words used' and if it says 'the word was with God and the word was God' …I can understand that, but then other verses don't seem to fit,
See, all this thinking, it gets confusing because of all the different ideas going on, see, if only there was one truth being taught,
In James, it warns that there should not be too many teachers, because teachers are judged harsher, we have teachers everywhere, so many beliefs of the same Scriptures, teaching all different things, just look at the Internet,
Faith should be simple,
Or if a teacher is needed, only with God's guidance and prayer,
Sorry, I'm probably rambling, thank you Barley.
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 21 2010,21:55) Shimmer, Ok, i will make him an offer he can refuse.
Poor Marty, ha, ok JustAskin,Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 12 2010,00:14) Do you believe then it is wrong to say God begat God, as in Jesus pre-existant was 100% God the Father ? Cause that's what they are saying over in another thread ?
It is wrong if it means that the only true God, begat another God which would then not be the only true one.However, the word theos can be used to not only identify, but qualify or talk of ones nature or office.
So the God could well begat another who has the nature of God. i.e., the Divine begats a being of divine nature.
Eve came from Adam, so is it wrong to say that From Adam came another adam (man/kind). No that is scriptural as it says that God made adam both male and female.
Is it wrong then to say that from Adam came another Adam? Yes that is wrong, because Adam identifies the first man, and adam is the word for man(kind), and Eve was not Adam. No 2 different people.
So Eve is not Adam, but she was adam.
Similarly, Jesus is not the Divine, but he is divine.Just a difference in the way the word is used. Identity or qualitative. Most Trinitarians do not understand this, although a number of their scholars do, but still remain adamant that the Word was divine, but that this still makes him God.
Also, because Trinitarians on the whole have no concept of how the word 'theos' can be used to identify or to qualify, they also read the Early Fathers work as supporting their view due to this ignorance.
t8,
I was hoping to see you around.I wanted to say you should you have been promoted to 't32', and maybe 't64' later on (let him who has wisdom understand)
it is not so much than Trinitarians don't understand 'theos' in context. It is more that they are constrained to believe what they are told. Even when they see something dubious in trinity, they quickly dismiss it in case they are seen as trinity heretics and being ostracised by their peers.
I asked for them to sketch out their idea of God's kingdom but they refuse. Why? Please don't answer…no answer required.
Shimmer,
I am not following why you say that the idea word = “thought behind the words used”. I plugged it into some and it sounds fine to me though it needs adjusting to fit the tense of the sentence structure. I did not adjust except a couple of times.
Quote
Through “the thought behind the words used” all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.That would be a repetition of the creation story which states all things were made by God’s words.
Quote In “the thought behind the words used” was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. That would be what Jesus stated repeatedly about God’s words.
Quote “the thought behind the words used” was in the world, and though the world was made through “the thought behind the words used”, the world did not recognize “the thought behind the words used”. “the thought behind the words used” came to that which was “the thought behind the words used” own, but “the thought behind the words used” own did not receive “the thought behind the words used”. Jesus tells us the same about those who chose to reject or accept him.
Quote Yet to all who received “the thought behind the words used” , to those who believed in “the thought behind the words used” name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. This is testified of in Paul’s letters a couple of times.
Quote “the thought behind the words used became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen “the thought behind the words used” glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. What happens when your words become flesh?
I am not sure my grasp of proper English is good enough after that point but if I correctly understand then John switches from talking of God’s Word to actually talking about Jesus in verse 14. He does that switch by speaking about the glory of God’s word and stating that glory is the same as Jesus’ glory.
I assuming we may agree on the rest of the passage.
All,
Why all the struggle?First the thought, then the word, then the act.
The Thought is In God.
The Word is From God
The Act is By 'Jesus'God carries out His words, his utterances, through agents… Angels.
How many different types of residents are described in God's kingdom?
Two.
God and Angels (p.s. The Holy Spirit is 'of God' not a seperate being. It is the actioning 'Force', 'wind' of God)
They are all Spirits.
The queen of England wishes to entertain a visiting dignatory.
She consults her political servants as to the protocols required, her diplomats as to conversational topics, greeting, exchanges of gifts, etc.
Her senior cooks and table layers and couch cushion fluffers.Then she formulates her plan (the Thought), and appoints (the Word) the most appropriate persons to carry it out (the Act).
She herself, does not ACTually do the work…YET, all things are attributed to her.
Yet, also, the senior appointee…can also be said to have carried her plan, to her very Word.
The word was with God. Yes, Jesus was with God.
And the word was 'God'. Clearly, this is not 'God Almighty', but 'Mighty One'.
'God', is not a name… It is a title. It is a title that means 'Mighty One', 'Hero', 'One with Power and Authority'.
Hence, the appropriate meaning must be applied in the right context.
The Word was 'God'. Please select from above, baring in mind that 'God' cannot mean 'God Almighty'.Yes, the Word was a 'Mighty One', 'one with power and authority' to carry out that which God Almighty (the one from whom 'All' Might, 'All' Power and Authority' proceeds) spoke.
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 21 2010,22:31) All, And the word was 'God'. Clearly, this is not 'God Almighty', but 'Mighty One'.
Hi JustAskin,Why are you trying to change God's word to adapt to your understanding?
Of course you don't understand…
you keep calling “The Word” (falsely) the Son instead of
rightly calling “The Word” the “HolySpirit”! (Click Here)John 1:1…
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.I hope me carefully lining this up for you will help you see “Bible Truth”!
English ↔ Hebrew ↔ Greek
“Word of God”(86) = (אלהים](86] = [ο λογος](86)th Prime Hō Lōgôs
“Word of God” ↔ “GOD” ↔ “The Word”Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
“The word“(HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law, (Luke 8:11)
maketh the Son (Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEdj,
When 'the angel that became Satan' became Satan, he sought to pursuade many other angels to rebel against God, and indeed, he brought one third of the heavenly host down with him.Edj, right now, you, are being like that one.
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 21 2010,23:20) Edj,
When 'the angel that became Satan' became Satan, he sought to pursuade many other angels to rebel against God, and indeed, he brought one third of the heavenly host down with him.Edj, right now, you, are being like that one.
Hi JustAskin,Looks like you're seeing 'your' own reflection in me; don't like what you see?
James 1:23-24 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer,
he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For
he beholdeth himself (Psalm 18:25-27), and goeth his way,
and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.Psalm 18:25-27 With the merciful thou(YHVH) will show thyself merciful;
with an upright man thou(YHVH) will show thyself upright; With the pure
thou(YHVH) will show thyself pure; and with the froward thou(YHVH) will show
thyself froward. For thou will save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 27:4-5 / Isaiah 54:17)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (JustAskin @ Aug. 21 2010,23:20) Edj,
When 'the angel that became Satan' became Satan, he sought to pursuade many other angels to rebel against God, and indeed, he brought one third of the heavenly host down with him.Edj, right now, you, are being like that one.
Hi JustAskin,Matt.7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo All………..Spirit simply put is (INTELLECT) or (THOUGHT), thoughts are (EXPRESSED BY WORDS) GOD and His words are one and the same thing , Just as our word and we are there same thing. Difference is (POWER) behind those Words or expressed thoughts. Notice In revelations
Rev 4:5……> And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and voices and there were seven lamps (INTELLECTS) of fire (judgments) burning before the throne which (ARE) the SEVEN SPIRITS (intellects) of GOD.
Now notice………Rev 5:6 …..> And i beheld and lo, in the mist of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as It had been slain, having seven HORNS (POWERS) and Seven EYES, (INTELLECTS) Which (ARE) the seven Spirits of GOD sent forth into all the earth.
Spirits are simply Spirits or Intellects and are useless unless there is (POWER) connected with them Notice the SEVEN (HORNS) these are symbolic for SEVEN POWERS, that are CONNECTED with these Seven EYES or SPIRITS of GOD. Jesus Has these Seven Spirit (eyes) or Intellects connected with Seven Horns or POWERS. He will come and rule with these seven spirits and powers but in the end will return them back to GOD the Father Who gave Him them and become subject to GOD also. ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL.
God's Word and GOD (ARE) the SAME thing Because it is the Light (intellect) of the Mind and it is what enlightens the Mind of all men. God is SPIRIT Jesus said and also He said the words he spoke were Spirit and LIFE, See Life is the SPIRIT it is the (INTELLECT) of the MIND. “SO A MAN THINKS SO HE IS” He is the life of his thoughts or better his thoughts (ARE) his life. The are one and the same and GOD the FATHERS thoughts are His Life also, He and his thoughts are one and the same to. But all this is expressed to us through words, you even think in words and with power of wind across you vocal cords you sound them and by this you express them to others through the air waves to another, Words spoken are simply the transferring of Thoughts from one to another. God's Word (ARE) LIFE being expressed and transfered to us. They form SPIRIT (intellects) in Us that we may think like our GOD and reason as he does also. This enables us to become Childern of GOD as we recieve these Words into us and these word or thoughts become part of our existence to. IMO
Peace and love to you all……………………gene
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 21 2010,21:21) Quote (barley @ Aug. 21 2010,12:39) Shimmer, Looking up the word logos in a concordance is most enlightening.
Of over 200 uses, the vast majority of the uses fit the standard definition, “the thought behind the words used.” Rhema, a different word, refers to the words used.
Only in John 1 does some people try to make it mean a person. Certainly, I have no problem with the word becoming flesh. What is it saying? In John 1:1, God is highlighting the importance of his words, the thought behind the words used. God's words are important to Him, as a matter of fact. God's word is the greatest thing God ever did. He magnified it above His own name. Like a check, the word of God is only as good as the one signing it, underwriting it. Psalm 138:2 b. “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
God did a “show and tell” when He brought forth a son. The son clearly demonstrated God's word, Jesus Christ showed people what God's word is all about. On top of that, because of JC's precise knowledge of the meaning of the scriptures, not only could he show it perfectly, but teach it perfectly. He did the will of the Father. How did he know the will of the Father? He knows the word of the Father.
How wonderful it is that, to the degree and proportion that we know the word of God and believe it, we, too, can show the Father, just like JC, our older brother did.
barley
Hi Barley,If Logos means the 'thought behind the words used' and if it says 'the word was with God and the word was God' …I can understand that, but then other verses don't seem to fit,
See, all this thinking, it gets confusing because of all the different ideas going on, see, if only there was one truth being taught,
In James, it warns that there should not be too many teachers, because teachers are judged harsher, we have teachers everywhere, so many beliefs of the same Scriptures, teaching all different things, just look at the Internet,
Faith should be simple,
Or if a teacher is needed, only with God's guidance and prayer,
Sorry, I'm probably rambling, thank you Barley.
Shimmer,Truth is simple.
The challenge is to get to the truth.
That quest for the simple truth may be quite difficult..
Especially so, when the simple truths have been clouded, obscured and even suppressed by tradition.
barley
Hi Kerwin,
It wasn't me who said that, it was Barley,
I thought the word was God's spoken word, which was seen throughout the Old Testament in various ways then God's words were made flesh in Jesus, which is how I understand John 1.1 “The word was with God and the word was God', 'The word became flesh' word meaning exactly that, 'God's word/s'
Youngs Literal Translation…Hebrews 1
In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the messengers said He ever, 'My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'
But I'm stuck from there because other things don't fit, so I give up thinking about it for now. The main thing should not be What, When, Why, Where, but – Who do we follow,And where I believe many here do have it right is that Jesus could have sinned, Jesus made it clear by His own words that He was the son of God and also the son of Man, but that he overcame, as it is seen in revelations, no-one is found worthy, but then fear not, the Lion from the Tribe of Judah he has overcome.
Just my confused understanding that is all,
Quote (barley @ Aug. 21 2010,12:39)
Shimmer,Truth is simple.
The challenge is to get to the truth.
That quest for the simple truth may be quite difficult..
Especially so, when the simple truths have been clouded, obscured and even suppressed by tradition.
barley
Well spoken Barley, thank you.To all,
When I first was drawn to Scripture, I read not desiring to figure out who Jesus was before becoming a Man etc, all I was interested in was What Jesus taught, What we were to do, How we were to obey, all His saying's and How to apply it to these day's. What was to happen in the last day's, How to be obedient to God. Love. Compassion. All the other thing's being discussed in this forum are not thing's which I usually would think about, to do so becomes confusing.
But that's exactly it, not all of us have the brains to try to figure everything out, so many people have tried to do that, that's why there's so many different beliefs in the one book, it goes right back to the days when the early church were fighting thing's like Gnostics', it is evident even in the Early Church Fathers writings which many here hold as 100% truth, there were some called Saints, with pages and pages of writing, Who were later called Heretics, by the same Church. Example Saint Origen, all the writings seem so different, and who is to know what is spurious and what is not ?
When I was 'searching' for people who could hold the truth years ago, that is exactly what they had all done, analysed and come to their own conclusions, all so different, all with some catch,
One example, the United Church of God…Their free books were good, they seemed so full of truth, what was the catch ? We in the 'millennium' will live as we do today, we will have money, we will still have cars, factories, OH and also a 30% tithe is required to be part of their group. Then theres all this strange stuff about Israel being the English and German or something, and so on,
It's like that everywhere you look, strange beliefs tied in with truth, wherever you try to go,
Christian churches who also preach an eternal hell punishment, none of which matches God who is love.
Which is why I asked the original question, if we are being taught such confusing thing's in the churches, if our young especially are, is it their fault ? I don't think so, I believe it is the fault of those teaching, and also those who they learned to teach from,
Isaiah 53:6 -All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Where I live, there's alot of sheep, I had pet lambs, they were so tame, but the moment they got in amongst the bigger sheep, they go wild, after a while. Where one runs, the others follow, are we no different ? According to scripture we are not.
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