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Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 11 2010,09:41) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2010,11:06) Yes, it matters because many Jews and Muslims will not come to God for salvation through His Only Begotten Son and Christ, because of the “Trinity Doctrine”. It matters to God is someone perverts His Word.
Marty, The best we can do, as is our commission in these last day's to spread the word, is to spread the word according to how we believe, The Angels rejoice over one lost soul, most of the problem with Islam not hearing is because it is falsely spread through acts of war, or the fact that only one percent of Christianity are courageous enough to do it, what does it say of the cowards in Revelations ?Im sure that many of these brave souls are Trinitarian in their belief,
Hi Shimmer:The gospel to be preached is Jesus Christ and him crucified and not “God in the Persons”, and as I have stated, God does not take kindly to the perversion of His Holy Word.
But of course, the scripture states that not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but they that do the will of the Father.
In every denomination, I am sure that there are people of God, and he is calling them out, out of Babylonia, or confusion. The Lord is coming for a church without spot or wrinkle.
Whom the Lord loves, he will seek to correct.
Love in Christ,
MartyThanks Marty, I was getting pretty confused reading here tonight, over in the begotten thread, they saying all sorts of things, too complex for me, it was good to read your post back here, easy to understand, Babylonia, right here !
Do you believe then it is wrong to say God begat God, as in Jesus pre-existant was 100% God the Father ? Cause that's what they are saying over in another thread ?
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 12 2010,00:14) Thanks Marty, I was getting pretty confused reading here tonight, over in the begotten thread, they saying all sorts of things, too complex for me, it was good to read your post back here, easy to understand, Babylonia, right here ! Do you believe then it is wrong to say God begat God, as in Jesus pre-existant was 100% God the Father ? Cause that's what they are saying over in another thread ?
Hi Shimmer:The scripture states that Jesus is a man, and so yes, I believe that to say God begat God is definetly wrong. God is not a man and never will be a man. The scripture states that God is a Spirit and that He is love. Jesus is the last Adam. A man who is the “express image of God's person” manifest to humanity through the life that he lived in obedience to the Word of God. The Word of God is that “Spirit of love” manifest to humanity through His Son and hopefully through us the body of Christ as well.
Quote 1 Timothy 2 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
5FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (shimmer @ Aug. 11 2010,08:14) Thanks Marty, I was getting pretty confused reading here tonight, over in the begotten thread, they saying all sorts of things, too complex for me, it was good to read your post back here, easy to understand, Babylonia, right here ! Do you believe then it is wrong to say God begat God, as in Jesus pre-existant was 100% God the Father ? Cause that's what they are saying over in another thread ?
Hi Shimmer,
You misunderstand God begat God. That doesn't mean God begat God (the Father). No wonder you are confused. This is saying the unbegotten God (the Father) begat the begotten God (the Son). Think of it this way, if your dad begat a son, wouldn't that son be 100% human as well as your dad being 100% human? Yet, his son wouldn't be 100% his father because he is the son. He is 'of' the father.So, like begat like. Perfect begets perfect yet one comes from the other. You wouldn't expect perfect begetting imperfect. Both would be 100% perfect but both could not be 100% perfect and unbegotten.
Understand?
Hi Lightenup,
This is the post I just prepared for Marty and I just read your post so I will address it to both of you.Marty,
In the Born or begotten thread, theres more to what I said, They are saying God has a body with reproductive organs and everything, that God actually gave birth to God as another God who then became Jesus, all kinds of things, I was so confused, something just didnt feel right and I didnt know why I was feeling like this. I prayed last night about it, and today I felt such a huge relief, I know to stay away from that, I spoke with my Mother on the phone and she said that was silly, God is Spirit, it's saying things which are no-where in scripture. (And she is a Trinitarian) I met her later in town and we went into the Christian bookshop, She is friends with the man in there, and I saw a DVD, the movie of the book of John, I brought it and I felt like crying for some strange reason. I think it was the picture on the cover plus the atmosphere of the shop and the people I know in there. As we walked down the road I did too, as we went for lunch and I waited for her at the table, I watched people walking past the cafeteria window and the clearest words came into my mind…..God is love…..I was so overwhelmed at this simple truth I started crying (Its not something I would usually do !) I felt God working with me today.
Just thought I would share that, and yes – I now agree it is important what we teach or believe in.
Hi Everybody,
Jesus lineage is clearly written in “The Bible. (1Thess.5:21)
It's only a matter of lining up all the pieces correctly. (2Tm.2:15)50% “Son of Man” = “Son of Mary” (Matt.1:18 / Matt:1:20 / Mark 6:3 / Luke 1:35)
25% Judah: Mary’s Father Heli was the “son of David” (seed: according to the flesh) through Nathan. (Luke 3:23-31)
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
25% Levi: Mary’s Mother was from the tribe of Levi (which was the tribe of the priesthood). (Luke 1:5 / Luke 1:36)
Heb.5:6: As he saith also in another place, Thou(Jesus Christ) art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.50% “Son of God” = “Son of The HolySpirit” (Matt. 1:18 / Matt. 1:20 / Luke 1:35)
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came (consummated) together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.
Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto
him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. (Son of the HolySpirit = Son of God)
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing(Jesus) which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Luke 20:41-44 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? And David
himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD(יהוה האלהים) said unto my Lord(יהשוע המשיח),
Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Ps.110:1-2)
David therefore calleth him(Jesus Christ) Lord, how how is he(Jesus Christ) then his(David's) son?Can you reconcile these two Scriptures together, I can!
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Jn.8:14 …Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true…
John 5:37 is therefore fulfilled today in your reading of this Post! (Rev.21:2-3)Luke 10:30-37 will help you understand who יהשוע המשיח YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh was! (John 8:14) This is
an exegetical parable about [יהשוע המשיח (Jesus Christ) and “His neighbor” יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)! (John 5:37)Luke 10:30-37 And Jesus answering said, A certain man (Jesus) went down from Jerusalem to Jericho,
and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite(a Priest), when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him
to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to
the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will
repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead: (Gal.1:1) (John 6:39-40 / John 6:54)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (shimmer @ Aug. 11 2010,23:53) Hi Lightenup,
This is the post I just prepared for Marty and I just read your post so I will address it to both of you.Marty,
In the Born or begotten thread, theres more to what I said, They are saying God has a body with reproductive organs and everything, that God actually gave birth to God as another God who then became Jesus, all kinds of things, I was so confused, something just didnt feel right and I didnt know why I was feeling like this. I prayed last night about it, and today I felt such a huge relief, I know to stay away from that, I spoke with my Mother on the phone and she said that was silly, God is Spirit, it's saying things which are no-where in scripture. (And she is a Trinitarian) I met her later in town and we went into the Christian bookshop, She is friends with the man in there, and I saw a DVD, the movie of the book of John, I brought it and I felt like crying for some strange reason. I think it was the picture on the cover plus the atmosphere of the shop and the people I know in there. As we walked down the road I did too, as we went for lunch and I waited for her at the table, I watched people walking past the cafeteria window and the clearest words came into my mind…..God is love…..I was so overwhelmed at this simple truth I started crying (Its not something I would usually do !) I felt God working with me today.
Just thought I would share that, and yes – I now agree it is important what we teach or believe in.
Shimmer,
God is showing you His love and how appropriate that the book of John would enforce that. The most quoted scripture and following verse sums up that love:John 3:16-21
6“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”His love is amazing!
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 12 2010,15:53) Hi Lightenup,
This is the post I just prepared for Marty and I just read your post so I will address it to both of you.Marty,
In the Born or begotten thread, theres more to what I said, They are saying God has a body with reproductive organs and everything, that God actually gave birth to God as another God who then became Jesus, all kinds of things, I was so confused, something just didnt feel right and I didnt know why I was feeling like this. I prayed last night about it, and today I felt such a huge relief, I know to stay away from that, I spoke with my Mother on the phone and she said that was silly, God is Spirit, it's saying things which are no-where in scripture. (And she is a Trinitarian) I met her later in town and we went into the Christian bookshop, She is friends with the man in there, and I saw a DVD, the movie of the book of John, I brought it and I felt like crying for some strange reason. I think it was the picture on the cover plus the atmosphere of the shop and the people I know in there. As we walked down the road I did too, as we went for lunch and I waited for her at the table, I watched people walking past the cafeteria window and the clearest words came into my mind…..God is love…..I was so overwhelmed at this simple truth I started crying (Its not something I would usually do !) I felt God working with me today.
Just thought I would share that, and yes – I now agree it is important what we teach or believe in.
Hi Shimmer:God loves you and so do I.
Jesus has said“he who has seen me has seen the Father”.
Understand, that he was obeying the Word of God, and so he said, that it was the Father doing the works through him. (God is a Spirit and God is love)
Greater love has no man than he should lose his life for his friends
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (shimmer @ Aug. 07 2010,14:22) Hi, Does it really matter if someone believes in the Trinity or not ?
A non Trinitarian would feel uncomfortable in a Church where people are worshipping Jesus, as there is little mention of God, or if God is mentioned I think most would be thinking of Jesus [Is that correct?] . To a Non Trinitarian they see Jesus as what He said He was, the Son of God, who prayed to the Father and told others to do the same. But these are just different perspectives. The fact is, whether Trinitarian or not, both are followers of Jesus. Both read the same book.
I go on another forum which has Trinitarians and non Trinitarians. The subject is prophecy. Everyone gets on just fine, well, as far as I've seen.
Is it not just a fact that we all see thing's differently ?
“Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.”
“This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ”.
Shimmer,If Jesus Christ is God, then we have not been redeemed.
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. I Corinthians 5:7b
John the Baptist declared the Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. John 1:29
Exodus states that the passover lamb was to be chosen out of the flock. Exodus 12:5.
God is not a member of the flock. Only a man can qualify as a lamb out of the flock of God. For the flock of God is made up of men.
If Jesus Christ was God, he would not qualify to be chosen out of the flock of men. Jesus Christ is that man without spot or blemish chosen out of mankind to be our passover.
In conclusion, if Jesus Christ is God, then we have not been redeemed.
It is that important.
barley
Does it matter? yes from the perspective that we should seek truth and we will be held accountable for that, but as to salvation:
Romans 14:1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him (understanding more things) to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, (understands less) eats only vegetables. 3The man who (having more knowledge) eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who (understanding less) does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
The makeup of an infinite “God” is far beyond our understanding, and is definitely a “disputable matter”. Why does one “eat everything”, because he has a better understanding, and why does one who is weak “not eat”, because he does not have as good of an understanding. I believe many are taking the trinity dis-agreement beyond what it should be, we are not saved by having a full understanding of what “God” is, but by what the Father did for us through His Son. As it says later in this same chapter “13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.”
My opinion – Wm
Real undeniable hope is best served by a human Christ that is very clearly our example. A human Christ leaves no room for the devil to say Christ did this or that because of some extra-human attribute. So, growth in god and the fruit of hope is best served by a human messiah.
(besides it is clearly scriptural)Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2010,05:17) Shimmer, As far as not sinning I do not say “no one is perfect” for God has the power to do anything and will do it for those who seek him. I do understand that human beings must mature is the spirit of Christ to become perfect and that even those who don’t yet have the spirit must grow in belief to the point where they obtain the spirit. So why would I judge another student on a journey that I am myself making. Whether they are behind me or ahead of me, I hope that they on the path to God.
I assure you though that you can overcome you sins for God will train you to do so if you believe he will and constantly and persistently ask him to do so. What I strive to do is to say no to the sins I have the power to overcome and to seek deliverance from those I am compelled to do. I pray that God rebukes me for doing wrong and teaches me to do right. He answers my pleas with mercy. It is too much for me to bear and so I surrender myself to God for it is God who accomplishes these things and lives with me.
I hope this helps you in your own pursuit of the prize of righteousness to which the prophets looked.
Hi Kerwin,One way that I was taught concerning the word “perfect” was to see it as “complete”.
As Shimmer pointed out, as well as the Bible, no one other than Christ and God is “perfect” as WE define perfect. However when you think of being “complete” then we become complete when we accept Christ as our Savior and are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit who completes us.
The Professor
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 12 2010,15:53) In the Born or begotten thread, theres more to what I said, They are saying God has a body with reproductive organs and everything, that God actually gave birth to God as another God who then became Jesus, all kinds of things,
Hi Shimmer,I haven't read anyone say or even suggest this on the born and begotten thread. You have to read close. The trintiarians, who DON'T want Jesus to have been begotten or it would kill their doctrine, throw that silly stuff at Kathi and I all the time.
They say, “How could God beget him? Does He have a womb?” and other such nonsense as a distraction.
Kathi and I have never implied we even knew by what means God actually carried out the begetting of His only Son.
peace and love,
mikeBtw Shimmer,
God comes over me like that alot. Just thinking or watching or listening to music, and all of a sudden He's there so overwhelmingly that it brings tears.
God bless you,
mikeJesus says it best,
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Is “eternal life” important? We must know the only true God AND His Son Jesus Christ. They are not one being…….we must know both of them.
peace and love,
mikeAll, sorry, I don't have time to answer right now, I will later, but what is this..
God sent his (spoken word) into the world through the man Christ Jesus
The word was God.
Trinitarian or non Trinitarian ?
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 12 2010,08:14) Thanks Marty, I was getting pretty confused reading here tonight, over in the begotten thread, they saying all sorts of things, too complex for me, it was good to read your post back here, easy to understand, Babylonia, right here ! Do you believe then it is wrong to say God begat God, as in Jesus pre-existant was 100% God the Father ? Cause that's what they are saying over in another thread ?
Hello Shimmer,I read the same thing and thought it was funny (God begat God). However, there is a bit of truth if you want to see the begotten son as being “God-natured”. However, the problem is, the son can never be God who begat him….and that is what the Trinitarians claim when they use John 1:1. son = father
It is one thing to say that Jesus is “God-natured”, which is true, and then jump to the conclusion because he IS God-natured then he must be GOD….a fallacy.
I think you run into problems when people read other people's writings from the ancient past and then try to apply them today. The ideas are usually disjointed and illogical like God being born….by definition God exists and has no “cause” (non-causal).
Just because Jesus pre-existed before he was born thru Mary does not make him God.
Now, if you make him God when he isn't….Does it really matter?
I've been wrestling with this for some time and lately I feel God's presence speaking to me about this.
I responded in Trinity part 2 and felt that God wanted me to write what I did because someone was praying to Him saying, “Dear God, Show me……
To me my response was more harsh than what I would normally write….as a matter of fact I have been avoiding addressing the topic so as not to hurt anyone's feelings.
But now, after looking at many threads in the year's past and the same points and people making the same claims it is necessary to speak out.
Does “TRUTH” really matter? It is one thing to “try” to claim ignorance but the people here are very well versed in the Bible and have forced this issue to surface.
We are confronted with two viewpoints:
1-Jesus is God (the son).
2-Jesus is son of God.Both cannot be true. Jesus can only be FROM God as he claims OR God (which he doesn't claim to be). You cannot be (BOTH) the same person whom you come from.
Therefore, one is a lie and the other is the truth. Does it matter which you follow? Does it matter if you teach lies?
If you follow lies does the Bible not say that the person's father is Satan, who is the father of lies?
The Professor
David the Professor,
I can only go by what God states through his servants and he did promise us through his Son that if we hungered and thirsted for righteousness we will stop sinning, Matthew 5:6.
Jesus repeated this in John 8:34-36 telling us that if the Son sets us free from being a servant to sin that we will free indeed and that anyone that sins is a servant of sin so when we are truly free we will stop sinning.
Paul tells us in Romans 6:23 that we were set free from being a servant of sin.
He teaches us the same lessen in Ephesians 4:22-24 by telling to put off our old corrupt self and put on one the new self that is created like God who does not sin.
This same lessen is also repeated in Galatians 5:16 with the words to “live by the Spirit so you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature”.
Jesus would not have promised it if it could not and would not be done and Paul would not instruct us to do it if it cannot be done.
So I must disagree and tell you we can and will be mature when the time is right if we hold to all of Jesus’ teaching because God does not lie and all things are possible through God.
That is why making sure you what you believe is so important that Timothy was instructed to watch his life and doctrine closely so that he and his hearers would be saved, 1st Timothy 4:16.
Trust in God! Trust in Jesus!
You are correct that it is the Holy Spirit that completes us.
Edited to add last line and make more readable.
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