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P2A
this are your words;funny how Jesus never said he was not god but did just the opposite and that's why he was sought after by the Jews,those are your verses;John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. “)
God as no beginning so ? is God lying or you don't understand ???Christ as a beginning.
(“Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.”)
God possessed what himself ??
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”Jn 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.
Jn 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
this is the same apostle you quote in Joh 1;1 who says the WORD WAS GOD'
it seems he does not know what he is talking about ,I don't think so John knew that Christ was not God ,otherwise he would not have written what Jesus said in John 5.
So there must be another explanation ,but was is clear Christ is not God he is the first begotten Son and the only one of Got ,i know this because the scriptures can not be broken .
if you say he is God then you explain were he says he is not the Father and that it is is father who tell him what to say and do ,and without the father he can not do anything.
and why should he received to sit at the right of God wen you say he sit on the throne anyway.
and many more.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 03 2010,22:57) To all, I am currently investigating scripture which states Jesus was created like man. That scripture is from the letter to the Hebrews and compares man to angel to show why Jesus is not an angel. This investigation has took me to after Jesus' resurrection when he proved he was not a phantasm. In that I discovered there is a difference between a phantasm and resurrected human though the later appears similar to some angels. A resurrected human like an angel has a physical presence that can be touched and can be used to eat while a phantasm does not.
In 1 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is called an “Anthropos” translated to “human being” or “man” even after his death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven.
kerwinYou are not a good investigator, you can't even get your facts straight.
Jesus was not “created” like a man; he was born like man; there is a difference.
That scripture you're referring to does not “compare” man to angels, nor does any other scripture.
Are angels and spirit beings, two different kinds of beings in your opinion? you make it sound like you do.
When Jesus appeared to the apostles he proved to them that he was real, because they did not recognize him, by eating something. Why did they not recognize him? he did not look the same. Why was that? God had given him back his true nature, spirit nature, that's what he was before he became human,you can call it angel if you like; its all the same.Georg
George wrote:
Quote Jesus was not “created” like a man; he was born like man; there is a difference.
I do not know what scripture you are using but scripture stated Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb before he was born. Man is created or conceived in their mother’s womb and develops thereafter. To my knowledge we do not have a record of Jesus developing in Mary’s womb though we know he was there at least about three months while she visited Elizabeth. We do have a record of him developing from birth to adulthood though it is scanty.
George wrote:
Quote That scripture you're referring to does not “compare” man to angels, nor does any other scripture.
In this one I am not sure “compare” is the correct English word to use to describe what is being done to show that Jesus is not an angel but he is a human being,. It seems that the author does that by showing how Jesus is different than angels and then showing how he is similar to human beings. I felt comparison was a good word to describe it but if you have a better one then please let me know.
George wrote:
Quote Are angels and spirit beings, two different kinds of beings in your opinion? you make it sound like you do.
I only argued that an angel and a phantasm are two different kind of beings. Scripture calls an angel a spirit but then it calls a human being a soul.
George wrote:
Quote When Jesus appeared to the apostles he proved to them that he was real, because they did not recognize him, by eating something.
He was attempting to prove he was not a spirit according to scripture. I just assume that means a phantasm instead of an angel since an angel would pass the tests.
George wrote:
Quote Why did they not recognize him? he did not look the same. Why was that? God had given him back his true nature, spirit nature, that's what he was before he became human, you can call it angel if you like; its all the same.
I can only speculate but it is possible God just manipulated the brains of those who viewed him so that they did not recognize his familiar features. It is just as plausible that an individual who caused a withered limb to heal altered his own features.
I want to point out that according to scripture he is still a human being.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2010,22:13) George wrote: Quote Jesus was not “created” like a man; he was born like man; there is a difference.
I do not know what scripture you are using but scripture stated Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb before he was born. Man is created or conceived in their mother’s womb and develops thereafter. To my knowledge we do not have a record of Jesus developing in Mary’s womb though we know he was there at least about three months while she visited Elizabeth. We do have a record of him developing from birth to adulthood though it is scanty.
George wrote:
Quote That scripture you're referring to does not “compare” man to angels, nor does any other scripture.
In this one I am not sure “compare” is the correct English word to use to describe what is being done to show that Jesus is not an angel but he is a human being,. It seems that the author does that by showing how Jesus is different than angels and then showing how he is similar to human beings. I felt comparison was a good word to describe it but if you have a better one then please let me know.
George wrote:
Quote Are angels and spirit beings, two different kinds of beings in your opinion? you make it sound like you do.
I only argued that an angel and a phantasm are two different kind of beings. Scripture calls an angel a spirit but then it calls a human being a soul.
George wrote:
Quote When Jesus appeared to the apostles he proved to them that he was real, because they did not recognize him, by eating something.
He was attempting to prove he was not a spirit according to scripture. I just assume that means a phantasm instead of an angel since an angel would pass the tests.
George wrote:
Quote Why did they not recognize him? he did not look the same. Why was that? God had given him back his true nature, spirit nature, that's what he was before he became human, you can call it angel if you like; its all the same.
I can only speculate but it is possible God just manipulated the brains of those who viewed him so that they did not recognize his familiar features. It is just as plausible that an individual who caused a withered limb to heal altered his own features.
I want to point out that according to scripture he is still a human being.
kerwinI am from Germany, and I think I have less problem to read and understand English then you have. Although I believe you're doing that on purpose, no one can misread scriptures unless he tries real hard, for whatever reason.
I say, you don't want to believe, so try Nick for a while.
If you really believe your last sentence, then you haven't got a clue what a ransom is, or what it means, “the penalty for sin is death”.Georg
Joh 5:26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He {A} gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
To me this tells me Jesus did not always have his life he was given his life from the father also,
if you take this verse
1Ti 6:15 which He will {1} bring about at {A} the proper time—He who is {B} the blessed and {C} only Sovereign, {D} the King of {2} kings and {E} Lord of {3} lords, {1)
it means the same thing and is talking about the same person as this verse
1Ti 1:17 Now to the {A} King {1} eternal, {B} immortal, {a} {C} invisible, the {D} only God, {E} be honor and glory {2} forever and ever. Amen.
Jesus calls the father the only true God.
And Finally
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
hebrews 1:11
we and Jesus are from the father connect everything you have read Jesus says he was given life we all come from the father the Father is only Immortal its clear
I hope this helpsQuote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2010,15:14) P2A
this are your words;funny how Jesus never said he was not god but did just the opposite and that's why he was sought after by the Jews,those are your verses;John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. “)
God as no beginning so ? is God lying or you don't understand ???Christ as a beginning.
(“Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.”)
God possessed what himself ??
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”Jn 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.
Jn 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
this is the same apostle you quote in Joh 1;1 who says the WORD WAS GOD'
it seems he does not know what he is talking about ,I don't think so John knew that Christ was not God ,otherwise he would not have written what Jesus said in John 5.
So there must be another explanation ,but was is clear Christ is not God he is the first begotten Son and the only one of Got ,i know this because the scriptures can not be broken .
if you say he is God then you explain were he says he is not the Father and that it is is father who tell him what to say and do ,and without the father he can not do anything.
and why should he received to sit at the right of God wen you say he sit on the throne anyway.
and many more.
possessedwhat i'm pointing out is jesus was not jesus in heaven before all was made.
yes jesus had been created with god's own spirit in womb of mary.
god created all, god's plan was thought out and exicuted before he created all. its not just playing out in our realm of time)
the wisdom of god is where jesus had that GLORY that he called upon to god as he was crucifired.
his plan for jesus was to be exhalted up high next ot god.
when he says that he was like a master carpenter and was beside god.
that because all was made for him and to be under his rule.
that his place was to be at the right hand of god doing this.
thats the whole thing. jesus christ was not jesus christ until he was placed in womb and thus made in form of man.
god is complex and when he talks in plural is becasue his plan was already made.
god says let us make them in our image.
then a sentence later, god says i make them in my image.
notice too how (the word) creates what he wants. his wisdom.
you are still trying to place god in a little box to fit what you comprehend instead of really looking at what it says noticing how he tries to have a relationship with us in many ways.
notice how god clearly makes all. jesus for some reasom then has no attributes of his own that ne only can do what it is that god can when he is given god's spirit and given the spirit seed to live. he was the living god to man, he was the physical form of th einvisible god in nature and essence.
jesus only has god's nature and essence, never his own. he is obviously in his form and his ranking in relation is not equal but thats it.
jesus never says he is not god and thus when accused of blasphemey he does not reject it but enforce such claims by his words.
t otell them i and the father are one, he is in me i amin him. use terms that only god has to them such as I AM. t obe called GOD ALMIGHTY by his apostles and not corrected. to be worshiped by them also and not be corrected.
would have been blasphemey.
he never corrected them once. he would reiforce their belief with wordsof comfort as to their able to see what those in darknes cannot.
he is described as the titles that god is given and he does not correct them. one cannot blasphemy if it is true and thus he never corrected them once.
the only thing he did was state his postion in the complex unity of god.
like i said before. one way thinks that they are totaly seperetate but one has to have given him the spirit and nature of god, indirectly from god.
the other thinks that they are alsways fom the same nature and spirit from the start.
either way is not ungodly or wrong.
if both come to worship god with truth and their life's action reflect that worship then be glad for those that do.
i pray for you to keep your faith without falter and rejoice that you love jesus and his father, and look forward to living in his kingdom.
the kingdom that can only offer true peace and security and life without pain and sufferng and death.
i too long for this. i too hope to have my faith solid until the end.
well john writes that the word and GOD both were eterenal always being. thats what it says in verse 1,2.
so either they are of same nature and spirit or jesus is also a GOD seperate as you say for it says he was always thus given hom dietynow you say john has no idead what he talks about and is wrong.
how nice it is to be able to use that thinking to justify your idea and your fiting god and jesus into a nice easy to undersatnd box.
so you only accept scriptures you can fit to your way. thats nice to know, now we all know.
u ignore all the scriptures that show jesus accepting worship, being called only that god is supposed, not disagreeing with the blasphemy charges but sating in various ways that he is a son born of god but the living god by his words and actions. takes creadit and shares that diety and power and standing as god.
all you cling to is the ones that show his order in position of things, thats it.
well guess what, both triune and non triune beleivers beleive in this also.
they don't hold or credit christ as the most high jehovah, he is placed in his role to mankind for what he as willed.
that does not mean that it is impossible for god to have done such a thing.
jesus's nature and word and essence is that of god.
there is not distinct speperate nature or word of jesus. never has it been shown or mentioned it in the bible.
all that is shown is how his nature and word and the complex unity he has.
Quote (uoflfan @ Jan. 05 2010,01:30) Joh 5:26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He {A} gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
To me this tells me Jesus did not always have his life he was given his life from the father also,
if you take this verse
1Ti 6:15 which He will {1} bring about at {A} the proper time—He who is {B} the blessed and {C} only Sovereign, {D} the King of {2} kings and {E} Lord of {3} lords, {1)
it means the same thing and is talking about the same person as this verse
1Ti 1:17 Now to the {A} King {1} eternal, {B} immortal, {a} {C} invisible, the {D} only God, {E} be honor and glory {2} forever and ever. Amen.
Jesus calls the father the only true God.
And Finally
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
hebrews 1:11
we and Jesus are from the father connect everything you have read Jesus says he was given life we all come from the father the Father is only Immortal its clear
I hope this helps
uoflfan………..good post.peace and love to you and yours………….gene
peace2all said:
Quote well john writes that the word and GOD both were eterenal always being. thats what it says in verse 1,2.
p2a,AMEN BROTHER! And verse 3 says that “without Him not one thing came into being that has come into being.” The Word (Jesus) is eternal with God as you say.
You have the truth my friend!
thinker
thinker ………Before you clap you head off, the reason the word and GOD are the same thing is because the word is the GOD that created the whole wold and that GOD was (NOT) Jesus as you twist the scripture to try to make come out to say. God's words are just as much part of Him as your words are part of you , not difference at all. Only trinitarian twisting of and changing of text to make it come out to mean Jesus instead of GOD himself as it says. Forcing text to meet you false Idolatress teachings is a sin thinker. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 05 2010,05:28) thinker ………Before you clap you head off, the reason the word and GOD are the same thing is because the word is the GOD that created the whole wold and that GOD was (NOT) Jesus as you twist the scripture to try to make come out to say. God's words are just as much part of Him as your words are part of you , not difference at all. Only trinitarian twisting of and changing of text to make it come out to mean Jesus instead of GOD himself as it says. Forcing text to meet you false Idolatress teachings is a sin thinker. IMO
Gene,Before you shoot your mouth off verse 14 says that the Word is the Son.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ESV
The Word of verse 3 created all things. The Word in verse 14 is identified as the Son.
No degree in rocket science is need Gene.
thinker
thinker………Right like it say the word is JESUS in JOHN 1:1 right? John just forgot how to spell Jesus in John 1:1 so you trinitarians have to show Him and Us His error in spelling. And have you (EVER) seen a WORD BE FLESH : Let me answer that (NO) and neither has anyone else seen a flesh word. The word (who is GOD) CAME to be (IN) Jesus , how by the CHRISTOS or ANOINTING. GET IT> Jesus PLAINLY SAID THE WORDS HE SPOKE WERE (NOT) HIS. What part of that you deluded Trinitarians can not understand, excuse me what part do you understand would be the better question.
gene
again,you remove words who do not reflect your views ,then elaborate around the remaining parts of the scripture verses and try to explain your views,
and worse of all you declare it truthful,i call it misguidedterraricca ……That is all you have to do is Post where in scripture i and wrong thats all, post your scriptures instead of accusing me of something you can prove. POST THE SCRIPTURES. Show US where i removed words that do not reflect my view. If Jesus said the word He spoke were (NOT) his Words , then a simple question would be HOW COULD HIS FLESH BECOME A WORD. Are word FLESH or are the SPIRIT, Jesus said they were SPIRIT, and SPIRIT is (NOT) FLESH. Simple common sense should tell you that. Just learn to put scriptures together . Do not focus on (ONE) thing and eliminate all the other things said about that subject, as the Deluded TRINITARIANS DO. IMO
gene
John is a apostle of Christ he tells it as it is why is it so difficult it does not support trinity because John recognized that the Word had a beginning.t……Where do it say the word had a beginning, because it say the word (was in the beginning) does not say it (had) a beginning.So please post your next proof that the word itself actually became a flesh. And you still have not disproved any of what i have written about it. IMO
The Word or Jesus came from God just like we did thats why he calls us brothers. Heb 2:11
Also Jesus says he lives because of the Father it doesnt say whether it was physical or spiritual….. it was a blanket statement.
As i stated before The Father(God)is only immortal
God Bless
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