Does hebrews 2:17 tell us jesus is created?mqa

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 01 2010,12:00)

Kerwin………Yes Jesus is a HUMAN Being and still IS> “when the son of man comes will he find faith on the earth”. He is coming back as a man also just like he went, with flesh and bone.

Gene

Would you consider coming back as a human being, is in all his power and glory?
Have you read 1 Cor. 15:50 lately?

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Heaven is for spirit beings, the earth God made for us.

Psa 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Georg

January 1, 2010 at 5:21 am#167611

Participant

Quote (banana @ Jan. 01 2010,07:53)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:12)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 31 2009,20:21)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 31 2009,16:25)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2009,12:03)

To all,

The letter to the Hebrews instructs us that Jesus was not shaped like the angels but was instead shaped like a human being. On the other hand other scriptures tell us that some angels appear to be human beings.

How can that be possible as Jesus was either shaped like a human being and thus like at least some angels or he was not?

I was looking for an answer to this.

I believe that the writer of Hebrews was comparing kinds and not shapes. In other words Jesus was made of the like kind as his human brothers. An angel is man like so that would be poor argument for the writer to use in order to make the case Jesus is not an angel.

kerwin

Angels do not appear “to be” humans, they have appeared “as” humans; they have taken on the shape of humans to deliver a message or whatever, in order to communicate with us.
Jesus was all human because he came to die for humans, it was our nature that needed rescuing from death.

Georg

Despite our apparent disagreement about whether or not some angels appear to be human I believe we agree on the point that Jesus is a human being.

kerwin

No, I do not agree with that, Jesus was a human for the time that he was on earth. When he was resurrected, God gave him back his true nature, spirit nature; and that is what he is now, a spirit being; a glorified and divine, meaning, immortal, spirit being.

Georg

The whole purpose of having Thomas and his other students touch him after his resurrection was to prove to them he was not a spirit but instead had flesh and bone.

A human being that has been resurected from the dead is still a human being even though God has given them a body that will not perish.

I find a mystery since Paul teaches that we are raised a spiritual body. My hypothosis is that the word “spirit” has more than one definition and that is causing confusion.

January 1, 2010 at 5:35 am#167612

Participant

Georg……….Jesus left the earth with the body He was resurected with, and that body went through a door and they thought He was a spirit , but Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone (he did not say blood) , but flesh and bone>as you see i have, and you are right quoting flesh and (BLOOD) can not inherit the kingdom of GOD, because flesh and blood has no mind, but the Spirit living in it does. But the Kingdom can and does inhabit the Spirit in the flesh and blood body, ” For the kingdom of GOD is within you and comes without OBSERVATION, it is in all who Have GOD'S Spirit in them, rather flesh and blood or the bodies of angles. GOD'S WILL can Be in (ALL) and Trough (ALL) rather beings living in flesh and blood bodies or Flesh and bone or angles. IMO

peace and love………….gene

January 1, 2010 at 5:55 am#167615

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 01 2010,11:35)

peace and love………….gene

Leviticus 17:14(NIV) reads:

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because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

and

Deuteronomy 12:23(NIV) reads:

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But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat.

January 1, 2010 at 6:20 am#167616

terraricca

Participant

hi gene
you say that Christ had gone up whit is resurrected body,many times he appeared to his disciple and they did not recognized him so he had different bodies ??
Jn 21:12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord.
Jn 21:13 Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish.
Jn 21:14 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.

Jn 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
Jn 20:20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord

Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Lk 24:28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther.
Lk 24:29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
Lk 24:30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them.
Lk 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.
Lk 24:32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together
Lk 24:34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”
Lk 24:35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread

Lk 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
Lk 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
Lk 24:38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
Lk 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Lk 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

in one scripture it says that flesh can not go to heaven so we assume his body disintegrate.

January 1, 2010 at 6:53 am#167621

Participant

To all,

I find it interesting that if you look to what the Greek word for natural is it is “psychikos” which is defined as having the nature and characteristics of breath. That sounds a lot like the definition of Spirit. It is used a total of 5 times in the King James Version and translated to natural 3 times and sensual 2 times. There are about 9 other Greek words that are translated to natural in the New Testament though some appear similar or are fit different definitions of “natural”. In any case Paul may not have been speaking of the physical body at all when he speaks of the sensual body being buried and the spiritual body being raised.

January 1, 2010 at 4:50 pm#167644

Participant

T………..Jesus said His resurected body was flesh and bone, this body disappeared and reappeared at times, but why do you find that odd , consider Phillip and the Servant he explained scriptures to and then was sweep away and disappeared from him. Angles have bodies and can appear and disappeared, why limit what GOD can do with any body, or any thing. While it is true our temporary bodies are keep alive by Blood, in this state , but that does not mean we will not have bodies of Flesh and bone kept alive by Spirit in the future and able to go through doors and enter Heavens and perform great feats. We all know we will have a body of some kind , because our spirit is useless without a body to animate. GOD prepares Bodies for all his creation as it say a body i have prepared for you. IMO

January 1, 2010 at 5:03 pm#167646

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 01 2010,16:35)

peace and love………….gene

Gene

It is silly to think that when Jesus said, see I'm flesh and bone, that that's all he was, it simply meant that he was real, not a ghost; that is what the apostles thought he was at first.
If Jesus was resurrected in his human body, why did none of the apostles recognised him; even Mary Magdalene thought he was the Gardner. And Thomas only recognised him when Jesus showed him the wounds, again, not by sight.
You don't seem to understand what a ransom is, Jesus was the ransom for our sins. He took the place for us in the grave; had he not taken on our sins, we would have to stay in the grave, no resurrection. Now that Jesus took our sins, and placed them on himself, he became the sinner, and therefore his body has to remain in the grave. the fact that Jesus was a spirit being before he took on our nature, God was able to give him back his true nature, spirit nature, and leave the human body in the grave; for obvious reason, God disposed of that body.

Georg

January 1, 2010 at 5:09 pm#167650

Participant

Georg…….Flesh and Blood can not Inherit the Kingdom of heaven, that is true , because flesh and blood is kept alive by blood can not survive in heaven , but where does it say Flesh and BONE as Jesus Had can't. Angles have bodies like we will have and Jesus now has, but they do have bodies, and these bodies have Spirit (intellects) in them. They are living Souls, A BODY + A SPIRIT = A SOUL . There is nothing wrong with a body like we have that would have Flesh and Bone as we do , but would not depend on Blood to keep it alive but Spirit. I would be happy with that. A powerful and never able to die body that could fly through the air and go through a door and appear and disappear, that could travel in space to other planets, what would be wrong with that? IMO

January 1, 2010 at 5:21 pm#167652

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,16:21)

Quote (banana @ Jan. 01 2010,07:53)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:12)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 31 2009,20:21)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 31 2009,16:25)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2009,12:03)

To all,

How can that be possible as Jesus was either shaped like a human being and thus like at least some angels or he was not?

I was looking for an answer to this.

kerwin

Georg

Despite our apparent disagreement about whether or not some angels appear to be human I believe we agree on the point that Jesus is a human being.

kerwin

Georg

The whole purpose of having Thomas and his other students touch him after his resurrection was to prove to them he was not a spirit but instead had flesh and bone.

A human being that has been resurected from the dead is still a human being even though God has given them a body that will not perish.

I find a mystery since Paul teaches that we are raised a spiritual body. My hypothosis is that the word “spirit” has more than one definition and that is causing confusion.

kerwin

The Bible speaks of no others but Thomas that touched Jesus, and that only because he was not present the first time Jesus appeared.
Spirit beings do have the ability to take on human form, not so the other way around. Jesus, by even eating with them showed them that he was real, not a ghost.
There are two resurrections, the first is for the saints; all those that have given their life for Jesus as a testimony of their faith; they will be resurrected as spirit beings. The second resurrection will occur during the millennium; all of those being resurrected will be in their former state, human. All that will listen to the teachings of Jesus will have eternal life, live for ever.
If you stick to what the Bible teaches, then there is no confusion; only when people try to infuse their own ideas, will it create confusion.

Georg

January 1, 2010 at 6:23 pm#167668

Participant

George wrote:

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Jesus, by even eating with them showed them that he was real, not a ghost.

Luke 24:39(KJV) reads:

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Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

As you can see the KJV correctly translated “pneuma” to spirit. Ghost is a synonym. That is why the Holy Spirit is also referred to as the Holy Ghost.

George wrote:

Quote

The Bible speaks of no others but Thomas that touched Jesus, and that only because he was not present the first time Jesus appeared.

I do not consider this an important point but for informational purposes in John’s bibliography of Jesus Thomas is the only one mention but Luke’s account indicates there were others as he spoke to “them”.

Luke 24:33-39(KJV) reads:

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And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

George wrote:

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Spirit beings do have the ability to take on human form, not so the other way around.

Angels have that ability but they are only one of kind of Spiritual being. I don’t believe Jesus was trying to prove he was not an angel as they are also known to eat.

January 2, 2010 at 2:56 am#167759

Participant

kerwin

If you're not even clear on what a spirit being is, or an angel, I see no point in going on with this.
You have a happy new year.

Georg

January 2, 2010 at 9:13 am#167816

Participant

Quote (banana @ Jan. 02 2010,08:56)

kerwin

If you're not even clear on what a spirit being is, or an angel, I see no point in going on with this.
You have a happy new year.

Georg

I am investigating Hebrews 2:17 and its context. Studying angel kind and human kind seems to be part of that. I admit that there is much I do not know which is why I look at myself as a student.

I was pointing out that scripture seems to testify of different kinds of spirit being and each kind has different characteristics. An angel is merely one kind. A resurrected human is another kind that has some similarities with some kinds of angels.

I conclude that a resurrected human is not an angel because Jesus stated we would be like them and he did not state we would be them.

January 2, 2010 at 5:59 pm#168202

Participant

Georg and Kerwin……….There are (NO) SPIRIT (BEINGS), except GOD, Spirit is (IN) Beings. When we are resurected we will be Exactly like the Angles are, as Jesus said, we will have the same Kind of Bodies they Have and Jesus now has. These bodies can appear and disappear can go through doors and eat and drink they are self generated bodies that can not die They have Flesh and Bones. Just a different kind of flesh and bones that do not require blood to keep them alive. They can even travel in Space to other planets. The confusion is in my opinion is that Spirits (intellects) are Beings when in fact Spirit is what is (IN) the Being, no matter what body it has , even animals have spirits in them, no matter what type of flesh bodies they have. IMO

gene

January 2, 2010 at 6:15 pm#168207

NickHassan

Participant

G,
At least you are being consistent and only offering your ideas as you do not rely on scripture as you told us not to.

January 2, 2010 at 7:49 pm#168228

Participant

Nick………Show me where i ever told anyone not to rely on scripture. You should learn not to falsely accuse others. Or have you forgot the Commandment “YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS”.

SO YOU SAY I DON'T RELY ON SCRIPTURES, Did Jesus say we shall be as the angles are in the resurrection? Did Jesus say His body was flesh and bone after his resurrection, Did Jesus disappear and appear with that resurected body, did Jesus ascend up into the heavens with that body, does scripture say animals have Spirits in them, does scripture say we will have eternal bodies that live for ever, does scripture say spirit in in a person . Now with that said I still said (IMO) which show it is just and opinion, not a dogma or doctrine. Just and opinion, and Yet you come accusing me again falsely saying i don't rely on scriptures and told people not to , which is a absolute LIE>

What is interesting here is you continue to accuse me but NO SCRIPTURES BACKING YOU UP, When you disagree with what is said. Come on Nick produce Scripture seeing you (act) like you rely on them, show us instead of trash mouthing, which seems to be the only thing you have become good at.

January 2, 2010 at 11:17 pm#168270

Participant

Gene wrote:

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Georg and Kerwin……….There are (NO) SPIRIT (BEINGS), except GOD,

I am not sure what evidence or argument you have to reach that conclusion. I know scripture uses the word “ruwach” which is translated to “spirit” to address a type of being in 2 Corinthians 18:20. I assume the being in question is an angel.

This does not necessary mean that angels are spirit beings as humans are sometimes addressed as “nephesh” translated “soul”, Genesis 46:27, and at least one definition of “soul” and “spirit” are synonyms.

Still, Jesus proposed a test to determine whether or not he was a “Spirit”. We also have the advent of the Witch of Endor summoning the Ghost or Soul of Samuel.

In Matthew 14:26 and Mark 6:49 the word “phantasma” is used for ghost while Luke in his recounting of the same event used the word “pneuma”.

I believe a ghost is merely a bodiless soul.

God is spirit but he is a different kind of spirit than a ghost or an angel.

January 3, 2010 at 1:58 am#168294

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2010,20:13)

Quote (banana @ Jan. 02 2010,08:56)

kerwin

If you're not even clear on what a spirit being is, or an angel, I see no point in going on with this.
You have a happy new year.

Georg

I am investigating Hebrews 2:17 and its context. Studying angel kind and human kind seems to be part of that. I admit that there is much I do not know which is why I look at myself as a student.

I conclude that a resurrected human is not an angel because Jesus stated we would be like them and he did not state we would be them.

kerwin

What is there so difficult to understand? Angels are created spirit beings, that is their nature.
Satan and his devils are angels that rebelled against God, but they are still spirit beings.
Human beings which will come up in the first resurrection, the Bible calls them saints, will be given a new nature, spirit nature; that is why Jesus said, “they are like angels” meaning, spirit beings. Humans were not “created” spirit beings, to be given a new nature, spirit nature, is their reward.
Just as you have higher and lower ranking humans, but they are all humans; so are there higher and lower ranking angels, but they are all spirit beings.
A ghost is supposed to be the appearing of a dead human; since humans when they die go nowhere, they sleep in their grave, not even aware that they are dead; that idea is a myth. However, it is possible for some one to have a devil take on the likeness of a human, making you think you saw some one from the dead; that is witchcraft. God calls it an abomination.

Georg

January 3, 2010 at 11:57 am#168346

Participant

To all,

I am currently investigating scripture which states Jesus was created like man. That scripture is from the letter to the Hebrews and compares man to angel to show why Jesus is not an angel. This investigation has took me to after Jesus' resurrection when he proved he was not a phantasm. In that I discovered there is a difference between a phantasm and resurrected human though the later appears similar to some angels. A resurrected human like an angel has a physical presence that can be touched and can be used to eat while a phantasm does not.

In 1 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is called an “Anthropos” translated to “human being” or “man” even after his death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven.

January 3, 2010 at 5:46 pm#168362