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Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2010,22:26) Mike,
You are sorry that you 'angered me.' I've lost sleep tonight because of you calling me 'satan' and a stumbling block…being swayed by the mind of a man that believes Jesus is the second created angel.
Kathi,I was paralelling the Peter/Jesus conversation. Jesus “did NOT think equality with God was something to be grasped”. Yet here you sit, trying to rationalize your worship of “God the Son” and in effect, making the Son another God worthy of our worship, when Jesus himself spoke of only ONE that was to be worshipped – and that ONE was NOT himself.
Like you, Peter said what he said out of pure love for his Lord.
Like you, Peter said what he said from the mindset of a human being, not from the mindset of following the will of God.
Peter was rebuked by Jesus for just that, as I believe you would be.
Peter was not forever hated and condemned by Jesus for his human emotions, as I believe you are not.
But Peter took his rebuking, learned from it, and gained a new understanding from it.
Like Peter, you now have the choice to stop being a stumbling block to others or not. Paul said,
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.Where in the gospel did we learn to worship both God and His Son? You “preach a gospel other than the one [they] preached to you” Kathi. The man who wrote this said we have ONE God, not TWO. And the rest of scriptures say that ONE God is the ONE we owe our worship to.
Worship of King David: A bowing down to show honor and respect and reverence to one anointed by God.
Worship of Jesus: A bowing down to show honor and respect and reverence to one anointed by God.
Worship of God: Paying complete homage to the One who created us and for whom we exist.
mike
ps JA and I have been round and round about “Satan was the REAL firstborn of God”. I know you've had to see it, and you know I vehemently disagree with that claim. But that doesn't make everything JA says unscriptural, just like your worship of someone other than our God doesn't make every word you say unscriptural.
Mike,
I agree with you that we should not worship Jesus as God.
Phl 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Phl 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phl 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'”
Jhn 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Phl 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
Hbr 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
Luk 7:47 “For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
It sounds as if you want people to STOP saying that they “worship” Jesus and say that they “love” him?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2010,22:33) BTW Mike,
Peter was trying to stand in the way of Jesus gaining the victory over satan by trying to keep Him from the cross, that was what Jesus was addressing, not the adoration given Him.Also, what is the 'parable of the tenants' that you mentioned in another post?
Hi Kathi,Satan is also gaining victory through you. He knows your faith is too strong for him to sway you with thoughts of evolution and what not, but his goal is to take worship away from our God in any way possible – whether it be evolution, or the worship of demons, idols and false gods…..OR even the worship of God's Son, and you blindly fall into that last category.
The parable of the tenants starts at Matt 21:33, Mark 12:1 and Luke 20:9. It is an analogy of how God has sent many servants and prophets to remind us of the “payment” he requires of us, but they have been beaten and killed. This is the end of it:
Luke 20 NIV
13″Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.'14″But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
The Pharisees and teachers of the law sought to kill Jesus because he was getting in the way of their “high and mighty” empire……of which they were the “kings”. They had the Jewish people eating out of the palms of their hands. They were rich and powerful and Jesus was putting a damper on their prestigious postitions. People were starting to listen to him, not them. And what the people were hearing from Jesus is how THEY had been doing things terribly wrong and for their own benefit……not God's.
Even after Jesus was killed, they bribed the guards at the tomb and went after all of his followers. Their main concern then was that he would gain even more followers in death than he had in life. They simply were not willing to give up – or even share – their powerful postitions of being “the word of God” to the people.
Kathi, Jesus was NOT killed because “people were WORSHIPPING him as a God”. If that had ever happened, they wouldn't have had to go through all of this trouble,
Matt 26 NET
26:59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were trying to find false testimony against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 26:60 But they did not find anything, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward 26:61 and declared, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”You see Kathi, if even ONE person had “worshipped” Jesus in a way that indicated he was divine, that one act of worship would have been all the Sanhedrin needed……there would have been no need for all the false witnesses.
peace and love,
mikeDid Jesus not create us after God pro-created him as the firstborn of all creation?
Is Jesus not our Savior? Is he not our “Lord and Master”?
Did he not buy us with his blood?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him (JC) whom He has sent.”
2Pe 1:17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”—
Is not worship giving “glory and honor” to someone? Or is it ok to give Jesus glory, honor and bow our knees to him, but not “worship” him?
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 06 2010,04:14) It sounds as if you want people to STOP saying that they “worship” Jesus and say that they “love” him?
Hi David,No, what JA and I have both been explaining for months is that both the Hebrew and the Greek words for “worship” can mean “bowing down before a king” OR “homage paid only to God”.
When not used of the ONE true God, it has the default of meaning “bowing down before a king or someone else to whom you want to show reverence”.
It is the same game as capping the “G” in “god” in referrence to Jesus. The capped “G” wasn't in the text, but English translators add it to sway people's beliefs toward “Jesus IS God”. It's no different with the word “worship”. The text really refers to “doing obeisance”, but the trinitarian sponsored English translations like to use the word “worship” in referrence to Jesus to help claim the “Jesus IS God” thing, even though it is the same exact word used for the man bowing down to King David in 2 Sam 1:2.
Why don't the English translations say that man “worshipped” David?
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 06 2010,04:21) Did Jesus not create us after God pro-created him as the firstborn of all creation?
No, God alone created us. He chose to do that THROUGH His Son, Jesus.David:
Quote Is not worship giving “glory and honor” to someone? Or is it ok to give Jesus glory, honor and bow our knees to him, but not “worship” him?
I choose #2, David. I can give praise to my 9 year old son for doing good on a spelling test…..does that mean I “worship” him? I can give honor to a firefighter who gave his own life in an effort to save other's lives……but I don't “worship” him.In Rev, Jesus was given honor and praise and glory…….but only God was said to receive “worship”.
mike
Mike-
These are YOUR words:“And “worship” IS due him as THE SON OF GOD, not AS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. ”
So if I worship Him as the Son of God why do you say satan is gaining victory through me and not Eusebius?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2010,05:41) Mike-
These are YOUR words:“And “worship” IS due him as THE SON OF GOD, not AS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. ”
Hi Kathi,Worship is due Jesus in the same way worship was due King David. NOT the same way worship is due God.
Unlike David, however, even angels will partake in the bowing down to Jesus, for he is not just a human king reigning over certain human beings…….he is God's anointed King of all kings who will reign over ALL of heaven and earth. He will reign in the authority of the One who created all……and there is no greater authority than that.
Kathi:
Quote So if I worship Him as the Son of God why do you say satan is gaining victory through me and not Eusebius?
You have made clear that you worship “YHVH the Son” the same as you worship YHVH the Father and God of us all. You think Jesus is a God, just like his Father. You worship two different Gods.Eusebius knew that Jesus was a part of the creation of his God, just like scriptures tell us. And being the renowned scholar that he was, I'm sure he was aware of the scripture you pointed out to me that says to worship the Creator…..NOT the creation.
There was nothing in the Eusebius quote you gave to imply that he meant anything other than how the man “worshipped” David in 2 Samuel. But with you, we have the opportunity to ask what you mean, and you've never implied that your worship of Jesus is a simple “bowing down because he is your King”, and is a very different kind of worship than you give to your Maker. In fact, you've implied the opposite. You've implied that although you realize one is the Unbegotten God and the other is the begotten god, your worship of both is the same. In fact, you go as far as to share God's glory with His Son by capping the “G” in “God” and the “H” on the pronouns when in referrence to Jesus.
Have I understood you wrong all this time? Is your “worship” of Jesus more like what the man did to David, or more like what we all do to God?
mike
Kathi,
You have recently been posting the words of a lot of early church fathers. But lately, you have moved into posting church fathers who are clearly trinitarian……and you are using their referrences about the worship of Jesus as if it means something. Big deal….we KNOW that trinitarians worship Jesus. In fact, “Worshipping Jesus” is Keith's HN name.
Can you find a reputable church father who is NOT a trinitarian but still “worships” Jesus? Then can you find a quote from him that makes it clear that the “worship” he affords Jesus is the SAME “worship” he affords God?
Don't forget…..the word can mean either what the man did to King David OR what we are to do to God.
mike
Kathi! I don't want to upset you, but is it not right to only worship our Heavenly Father? Did Jesus not say so to do? If you do worship Jesus you might as well believe in the trinity….Why is there a difference in the wording of Jehovah God? Why is Jehovah God LORD and Jesus Lord and our Mediator? Why would we need one if you think that both are to be worshipped….I see a difference in Jesus and God Almighty….while I have always thought that Jesus is the Mighty God, and not the Almighty God. There is only one Scripture that I know of were He is called the Almighty one and that is in Rev. When I pray I go through Jesus to come to the Throne of God Almighty. Jesus by His sacrifice has made that possible….I honor Him and can bow my knee like Mike said as a KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Peace Irene
What is clear to me is that ya'll don't give the Son the same honor as you do the Father.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, 40 so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. 41 5:22 Furthermore, the Father does not judge 42 anyone, but has assigned 43 all judgment to the Son, 5:23 so that all people 44 will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,07:11) There is only one Scripture that I know of were He is called the Almighty one and that is in Rev.
Hi Irene,There is no scripture where Jesus is called “Almighty”. None at all.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2010,07:46) What is clear to me is that ya'll don't give the Son the same honor as you do the Father. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, 40 so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. 41 5:22 Furthermore, the Father does not judge 42 anyone, but has assigned 43 all judgment to the Son, 5:23 so that all people 44 will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Hi Kathi,I honor Paul for teaching that Jesus is the Son of God without fear or worry for his own being. He was five times given “forty less one” for his faith. Forty lashes was considered a death sentence, for the fortieth lash was considered the “killer blow”. So when someone was sentenced to 40 less 1, it was saying they were to be beaten within an inch of their life. Paul suffered this 5 times……can you imagine the pain? Can you imagine staying faithful the second and subsequent times after knowing how much pain it was going to be from past experience?
I honor my Lord for emptying himself to be made as a man and teach and then suffer a painful death for all of us.
I honor God because He is the Grand Creator of everything.
Do you see that I honor Paul even as I honor the Son even as I honor God? Do you further see that it does not necessarily mean I give each the same amount of honor, nor does it mean I honor each for the same exact reason.
This was just a quick exercise to show you that the passage you quoted does not mean to give Jesus the same amount of glory or honor as we give to his God. There are many more things I honor them all for, but this will serve the purpose.
mike
Hi Mike,
Do you honor the Son as one who has everything the Father has?Did David have everything the Father has?
I'm not sure if I had put this up by Ignatius where he is calling Jesus 'our God' in his letter to the Romans:
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy,819819 Or, “most holy.” and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2010,10:34) Hi Mike,
Do you honor the Son as one who has everything the Father has?
I wasn't aware he did.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2010,00:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2010,10:34) Hi Mike,
Do you honor the Son as one who has everything the Father has?
I wasn't aware he did.mike
Mike,John 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
All means all…truth, grace, might, power, wisdom, life. light, nature, image, form, name, etc.
He gave Him all that was possible to give but couldn't give an unbegotten status, that is the Father's glory alone.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,11:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2010,00:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2010,10:34) Hi Mike,
Do you honor the Son as one who has everything the Father has?
I wasn't aware he did.mike
Mike,John 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
All means all…truth, grace, might, power, wisdom, life. light, nature, image, form, name, etc.
He gave Him all that was possible to give but couldn't give an unbegotten status, that is the Father's glory alone.
Hi Kathi,First you say:
Quote All means all
Then you immediately refute you own statement:Quote He gave Him all that was possible to give but couldn't give an unbegotten status, that is the Father's glory alone. 
If Jesus literally has all, then Jesus IS in fact God the Father too? I wonder why Jesus is still a servant of the One he calls “my God”?Kathi, I'm answering all of your posts, while you just pick and choose the things you want to answer to. You ignore both my and JA's points that you can't answer intelligently…..why is that?
You know what? Worship who you want to worship….I've spent enough of my time explaining and showing from scripture that we are NEVER told to worship anyone except God the Father.
Scripture: Worship Jehovah your God and serve Him ONLY.
Kathi: My mortal mind tells me it's okay to ignore that scripture and others, and worship Jesus anyway……because I THINK God will be cool with it.
mike
Mike,
Obviously you have to use your reasoning skills. There is no way the Father could give someone an always existent status. I think you are trying to be difficult. You see honor the Son as you honor the Father differently than I do, that doesn't mean you are right. That is something new to the Jewish mindset but not unscriptural. The NT should be used to enlighten the OT not the other way around.Jesus is all the Father is aside from the Father being the one to beget and the source of all things and the Son to be the one to be begotten and receiver of all things…eventually they both have all things that each other has.
If I don't answer something that some one thinks they want me to answer, then they should bring my attention to it specifically. I get distracted at times or out of time, etc. of I think the comments are going down a rabbit trail that neither one of us could possible know about and it would be senseless to argue it. So, if you think that you have made a strong point that I haven't answered, please re-ask but one specific question at a time please.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,12:31) Jesus is all the Father is aside from the Father being the one to beget and the source of all things and the Son to be the one to be begotten and receiver of all things…eventually they both have all things that each other has.
Hi Kathi,And which one of them is it that scripture tells us to worship and serve ONLY?
Kathi:
Quote So, if you think that you have made a strong point that I haven't answered, please re-ask but one specific question at a time please.
Fair enough.1. Jesus is the firstborn OF every CREATURE…before all the ages.
2. Jesus is the “beginning of the creation of God”.
3. Worship the Creator, NOT the creation.
How do you reconcile those 3 scriptural truths and at the same time worship Jesus?
mike
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